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Politics, politics, politics

parklane1 said:
Its been done by other's who have more patience then me and as i say you back off for a few days and return spouting the same brick. But a man its a free world so fill your boots.
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Okay no problem. I take full responsibility. Brexit has been boring for sometime. But it is now crunch time. Fuk it up and we're all paying the price for decades. So forgive my intransigence, its nothing against you.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Its been done, on multiple points, many times.

You simply ignore and keep spouting your rhetoric.
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You cited FoM laws cited by Scara, I addressed them, socialised ideas on how to deal with them, and my posts remain unanswered. So I'd say it's quite the contrary.

If you can't win an argument or prove your point, fall back on a personal attack. Classy.
 
SpurMeUp said:
If you can't win an argument or prove your point, fall back on a personal attack. Classy.
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That was observation, not personal attack.

You argue a point, it gets rebuffed - often with the facts and figures you demand (but rarely provide) - you ignore that completely. Very soon after you are back to making the same point again. We have 729 pages in this thread, its not like we havent have time to notice.

Id suggest you skim through and take a look, but given you missed it all the first several times I doubt youd see it (now that was a personal attack, spot the difference? ;) )
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
That was observation, not personal attack.

You argue a point, it gets rebuffed - often with the facts and figures you demand (but rarely provide) - you ignore that completely. Very soon after you are back to making the same point again. We have 729 pages in this thread, its not like we havent have time to notice.

Id suggest you skim through and take a look, but given you missed it all the first several times I doubt youd see it (now that was a personal attack, spot the difference? ;) )
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Care to cite just one?
 
scaramanga said:
In which case a group of countries who genuinely had trade at the forefront of their minds would avoid creating external trade barriers.

Of course, if they were a protectionist load of socialists, they might like external barriers.
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The whole world (apart from Trump) is moving in the opposite direction.

Trade-Blocs.jpg


Trade with near neighbours will always outweigh that with further afield. The barriers to trade are regulations far more than they are tariffs. The big wins are in reducing non-tariff barriers with near neighbours. We are moving in the opposite direction.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Care to cite just one?
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No, I dont. That has already been done before as well, to precisely the same outcome.

Cards on the table, you are a card carrying EU cult member and superfan, and despite the pretense of being open minded etc, you always find a way to ignore anything that objects to your chosen narrative.

Again - observation, not attack. You might not like it, but that is precisely how you come across in the thread.

Perhaps Ive just nailed you 100%, perhaps you would even admit so. Perhaps Im wrong - that being the case you might take a look at why I would have such an impression.

Or, perhaps, just assume Ive "lost" and am upset and being a dingdong about it, whatever works for you - it is the internet after all.
 
Sure, but a border poll is not the DUPs call nor parliaments call as far as I know. I think it is the NI secretary who ultimately decides (not 100% sure on that). It is the nuclear option but if the choice is between that and a hard border it is not outside the realms of possibility. Nobody in the province or indeed the island wants a hard border.

Edit: Yes Karen Bradley, secretary of state, can call one ' if she believes the majority of people in Northern Ireland no longer want to remain part of the UK'
 
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nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
No, I dont. That has already been done before as well, to precisely the same outcome.

Cards on the table, you are a card carrying EU cult member and superfan, and despite the pretense of being open minded etc, you always find a way to ignore anything that objects to your chosen narrative.

Again - observation, not attack. You might not like it, but that is precisely how you come across in the thread.

Perhaps Ive just nailed you 400%, perhaps you would even admit so. Perhaps Im wrong - that being the case you might take a look at why I would have such an impression.

Or, perhaps, just assume Ive "lost" and am upset and being a dingdong about it, whatever works for you - it is the internet after all.
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Okay you have nothing. You can't point to anything that has been 'proven'. I expected more from you! On the flip side, you found the FoM laws cited by Scara, and I gave some ideas on how we coud approach these and get round them. They were just ideas shooting from the hip. But its particularly pertinent today as the EU and particularly Germany struggles with refugees, right wing parties and national unease. What do you do with refugees? They all want to be in the EU. Who should take them, or should they be sent back? However, my replies to the FoM EU laws and ideas on how to throw a real spanner in the EU status quo by taking on their laws and interpreting them to suit us the UK, were ignored by you. But if you can't win an argument go for below the belt points trying to call people cult members etc.

At the end of the day, I hope we can take the interest and passion from Brexit and develop a greater sense of the nation. A greater sense of national drive and ambition. We don't need to leave a trading block to do that. We just need politicians who can break the mold. I'm not sure if Corby can do it. He's on the right track, but I think he will fall short sadly.
 
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It is not the only solution but it is one of them. NI itself could have a special status in whatever soup the UK/EU eventually concoct, as has been proposed by many (and rejected by the DUP). It's citizens already do have a special status and are all defacto UK and EU citizens by the rights granted to them in the GF agreement. In fact this is just one more conundrum posed by Brexit. Up to half the population of NI are effectively EU citizens through their Irish passport (not all have them but in theory they could).
It seems obvious to me that NI should just leverage off their unique position, employ a bit of creative thinking and improve things in the province in economic terms.
 
@milo what is better in you opinion, that the conservatives sort themselves out and manage to somehow deliver a form of soft Brexit, or that there is stalemate and we end up in a situation where the UK has to have another referendum or election?

To my mind all roads have pointed to a withdrawal of Article 50 for sometime. Because 1. we have no attractive blueprint for post Brexit 2. soft Brexit is the same as now, but worse for us as a rule taker and 3. hard Brexit would overnight ruin a number of UK industries leading to big job losses and a big cuts to public services.

How does this all play out? What are the options for May and government?

Maybe this latest migration crisis in Germany, Italy, Hungry and Poland is an opportunity. These nations are now all very anti-migration. Could May work in something whereby we get an outcome that Camron couldn't - on migration and FoM now that a large portion of the Union is thinking like the UK on migration? This could then be a catalyst for a clever exit of the exit saying we delivered on FoM. May would need to sack any out of line Cabinet members and show some real leadership...so no it won't happen! If Blair was in the hot seat, you'd have confidence that he could deliver such a move with aplomb. May....backwards and forwards...trying to be nice to everyone...no direction.

One final thought, maybe May is playing everyone. Letting them all try and solve the impossible, and sitting back, waiting for Brexit to collapse.
 
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There is no way a Brexit will not happen imo, I expect a hard brexit perhaps on wto rules .. To many entrenched positions
 
I think the migrant issue has recently changed. Italy just blocked Germany addressing anything saying first of all it needs help with migrants. Meanwhile Bavaria - the wealthy part of Germany where migrants head to - are threatening to close its regional boarder to migrants unless Merkel acts. She is supported by another party keeping her in power, and they are putting the squeeze on her to stop free movement of migrants into Germany. Add to that Hungry and Poland who both have pretty right wing approaches to immigrants, and there is something happening. And of course Italy with its strong mandate for anti-immigration.

Certainly doing something like was done with Turkey - paying North African nations to take refugees - isn't a bad idea. But now, I think there is a strong mandate to reinterpret FoM laws to appease right wing populists. If so, the UK could get what it needs from the EU to return as victors. It's an flippant idea, but it is that kind of creativity that is required to turn around this shambles.
 
I don't see this shower providing an alternative, they have backed themselves into a corner by not standing up to either side of their party. At every corner they have contrived to choose the worst possible choice without realising the solidness of the EU was a factor in the talks not just trade ... And here we are
 
From the Times. Were they on the fence regarding Brexit? Initially Leave during the week and Remain on Sunday? I forget exactly. Amazing how pro Brexit the print newspapers have been on the whole. I concede that the BBC can't help being biased towards Remain on the flipside.

Tony Blair said that he had “never been more worried” about Britain’s future as he called yesterday for Brexit to be postponed, arguing that exiting without a deal on a future relationship with Europe would be a “catastrophe”.

Mr Blair used a speech to warn that the political fallout of Brexit could be far worse than the economic consequences, not only for Britain but for the world, weakening the transatlantic alliance and western democracy, and strengthening autocracies. “We cannot go on like this,” he told an audience at the international affairs think tank Chatham House. “I have never been more worried about the future of our country than now, with competing emotions of anxiety and rage.”

“We have a government whose every move is a calculation not about the interests of the nation, but the internal balance of advantage between the factions of the Conservative party, with the prime minister more a hostage than a leader.

“Meanwhile the leader of the Labour party neglects to lead the fight here at home over an issue which literally determines the future of Britain and where he could play a decisive role.”

Blair will call on MPs to assert themselves, adding: “the UK needs to plan now for the possibility we need to extend the March 2019 deadline for the end of the negotiations”.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Okay you have nothing. You can't point to anything that has been 'proven'. I expected more from you! On the flip side, you found the FoM laws cited by Scara, and I gave some ideas on how we coud approach these and get round them. They were just ideas shooting from the hip. But its particularly pertinent today as the EU and particularly Germany struggles with refugees, right wing parties and national unease. What do you do with refugees? They all want to be in the EU. Who should take them, or should they be sent back? However, my replies to the FoM EU laws and ideas on how to throw a real spanner in the EU status quo by taking on their laws and interpreting them to suit us the UK, were ignored by you. But if you can't win an argument go for below the belt points trying to call people cult members etc.

At the end of the day, I hope we can take the interest and passion from Brexit and develop a greater sense of the nation. A greater sense of national drive and ambition. We don't need to leave a trading block to do that. We just need politicians who can break the mold. I'm not sure if Corby can do it. He's on the right track, but I think he will fall short sadly.
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My chosing to not play along, again, is not the same as "having nothing".

I have pointed out how you have behaved/are perceived. Ive tried to show you that perhaps you arent engaging in the way that you think you are. And Im not the only one to say so.

I havent even tried to "win an argument" here, which really only goes to expose your attitude to this thread.

Which you basically validate by missing the entire point of the post to focus on one term you didnt like to then score points against me.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Fair play.

The GDP value of European Union represents 26.45 percent of the world economy. You'd still say its no powerhouse tho?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

Britain joined what was then the European Economic Community in 1973 as the sick man of Europe. By the late 1960s, France, West Germany and Italy — the three founder members closest in size to the UK — produced more per person than it did and the gap grew larger every year. Between 1958, when the EEC was set up, and Britain’s entry in 1973, gross domestic product per head rose 95 per cent in these three countries compared with only 50 per cent in Britain.

After becoming an EEC member, Britain slowly began to catch up. Gross domestic product per person has grown faster than Italy, Germany and France in the more than 40 years since. By 2013, Britain became more prosperous than the average of the three other large European economies for the first time since 1965.

Data compiled by Rebecca Driver of the consultancy Analytically Driven highlight a causal link between Britain’s greater openness to trade since 1973 and its subsequent specialisation in high productivity sectors, including finance, high-tech manufacturing and business services. Ms Driver said the 11 per cent of British companies that trade internationally are responsible for 60 per cent of the UKs productivity gains.


“These companies prefer large geographically concentrated markets with strong unified regulations,” she adds. “For the UK, that is the EU”. In other words, trade drives competition and growth. Since 1993, the UK has been the bloc’s top recipient of inward foreign direct investment, according to the UN.

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Academia, economists and simple logic show that having free trade with 500 million people helps the UK. Impairing that trade and losing any input into the terms of that trade is a bad thing.

Yes the UKs success has come at a cost. We’ve had migration which has put a strain on some communities and maybe we focus too much on wealth creation over society, but I believe both these things can be addressed by OUR government, it’s all too easy to blame the EU for all of our internal issues.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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Yes Britain was the sick man of Europe, a good part of that was because France continually vetoed our entry into the EEC.
 
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