Politics, politics, politics

[milo]

I think there could be a sector-specific fudge. Ulster agricultural produce gets made to conform to EU regulation (but nothing else), whilst British doesn't, or something along those lines.

That doesn't keep the boarder open. All goods can pass over the boarder, so there would need to be full alignment and membership of the Customs Union to stop boarder posts.

The section in the select committee minutes where they talk about the Poland/Ukraine boarder after Poland joined the EU are interesting on this point.

 

[milo]

This has been obvious for a while but interesting all the same

https://twitter.com/x/status/946274518762491904

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Why is being more peripheral a bad thing? I don't want to be a fat western pig consuming everything in sight, I don't want to crush you with my military might. Happiness is surely a might better measure of a country than might? Scandinavians are the happiest people in the world, and they are peripheral. We need to look inside and get things sorted, not worry about a pointless tinkling contest like 'growth'. Plus it's our nukes that really give us that seat at the top table anyway.

The problem is @Gutter Boy when people talk of 'better off' or 'poorer' etc they instinctively look down at their pockets.

 

[milo]

Why is being more peripheral a bad thing? I don't want to be a fat western pig consuming everything in sight, I don't want to crush you with my military might. Happiness is surely a might better measure of a country than might? Scandinavians are the happiest people in the world, and they are peripheral. We need to look inside and get things sorted, not worry about a pointless tinkling contest like 'growth'. Plus it's our nukes that really give us that seat at the top table anyway.

Scandinavian countries are amongst the richest in the world with some of the best social provision and employment rights. Exactly the opposite of what Brexit will provide.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The problem is @Gutter Boy when people talk of 'better off' or 'poorer' etc they instinctively look down at there pockets.

But there are better ways to fix that. Self-sufficiency in energy = no bills and reduced transport costs. Slowly decreasing population = higher wages and falling house prices.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Scandinavian countries are amongst the richest in the world with some of the best social provision and employment rights. Exactly the opposite of what Brexit will provide.

That depends what you vote for in 2022.

 

[milo]

That depends what you vote for in 2022.

No it doesn't. There isn't a model of Brexit on offer that will leave us richer and if decisions have been taken to lock us out of the single market, it will take a huge effort and time to re-enter.

The simple truth is that the fall in tax revenue as a result of Brexit will mean that we cannot afford to fix the problems in the country.

 

[DTA]

Why is being more peripheral a bad thing? I don't want to be a fat western pig consuming everything in sight, I don't want to crush you with my military might. Happiness is surely a might better measure of a country than might? Scandinavians are the happiest people in the world, and they are peripheral. We need to look inside and get things sorted, not worry about a pointless tinkling contest like 'growth'. Plus it's our nukes that really give us that seat at the top table anyway.

Again... GB no one is promoting your vision... degrowth, energy self sufficiency... you might as well be talking about Unicorns... certainly not our Brexit future.

 

[Baleforce]

But there are better ways to fix that. Self-sufficiency in energy = no bills and reduced transport costs. Slowly decreasing population = higher wages and falling house prices.

How long does that take?

I have children and elderly relatives to feed and keep warm now.

How do you tally your expectations against the needs of your dependants?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

But there are better ways to fix that. Self-sufficiency in energy = no bills and reduced transport costs. Slowly decreasing population = higher wages and falling house prices.

I'm not talking about fixing their money issues, more fixing their money fixation, it's in the dna sadly. Most would choose more money blindly over everything else.

 

[Baleforce]

I'm not talking about fixing their money issues, more fixing their money fixation, it's in the dna sadly. Most would choose more money blindly over everything else.

that’s because we have an established system of being able to exchange money for goods and services

 

[Gutter Boy]

No it doesn't. There isn't a model of Brexit on offer that will leave us richer and if decisions have been taken to lock us out of the single market, it will take a huge effort and time to re-enter.

The simple truth is that the fall in tax revenue as a result of Brexit will mean that we cannot afford to fix the problems in the country.

Leave who richer? The corporations? The state? Or private individuals?

Pulling back from globalisation only hurts the latter two, if you don't protect them from the former. Otherwise it could/should enrich the latter two.

The problems with the country aren't about having enough money. They are to do with structures and priorities. Brexit can free us from the neo-liberalism that has corrupted those.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Again... GB no one is promoting your vision... degrowth, energy self sufficiency... you might as well be talking about Unicorns... certainly not our Brexit future.

Corbyn's heirs might if the are smart enough (the 2017 Momentum intake doesn't give me much hope). Corbyn is a bit too wedded to the old concept of work being a liberator, whereas now it has actually become an opiate

 

[milo]

Leave who richer? The corporations? The state? Or private individuals?

Pulling back from globalisation only hurts the latter two, if you don't protect them from the former. Otherwise it could/should enrich the latter two.

The problems with the country aren't about having enough money. They are to do with structures and priorities. Brexit can free us from the neo-liberalism that has corrupted those.

Less trade will make us all poorer.

 

[Gutter Boy]

How long does that take?

I have children and elderly relatives to feed and keep warm now.

How do you tally your expectations against the needs of your dependants?

We can start now.

There are two ways to become more prosperous - make more money, or cut your costs. Neo-liberalism drives us towards the former. But the latter would be better for everyone.

The big recurring costs for people are generally housing, amenity bills and transport. Managing immigration to decrease the net population will shift the supply-demand balance in housing and start prices falling. Solar panels and household batteries, allowing people to go off-grid, will end amenity bills and significantly cut transport costs. Then people only need money for food and luxury goods.

 

[milo]

@Gutter Boy's post raises an interesting question though. The protectionist Brexiters and the disaster capitalist Brexiters aims from Brexit are diametrically opposed. At what point will their alliance break?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Less trade will make us all poorer.

It will incentivise a rebalanced national economy, that will serve us all better. More industry, less services; more north, less south; more skilled, less unskilled.

 

[milo]

It will incentivise a rebalanced national economy, that will serve us all better. More industry, less services; more north, less south; more skilled, less unskilled.

How, when, at what cost and delivered by whom? Without details it is nothing but

 

[milo]

And of course, rebalancing the economy can be done far more effectively and at less cost as EU members. The issue is a domestic one.

 

[Gutter Boy]

How, when, at what cost and delivered by whom? Without details it is nothing but

It'll be driven by necessity. Cutting the cord from globalisation forces us to become strategic with our economy.

There have been some signs of it happening already - the government's industrial strategy is the right idea, if with slightly misplaced priorities. The extension of training of homegrown health professional has already started too (commissioning new medical schools etc.).