So would I. And the way to do that is via better funded services.
How would leaving the EU specifically make your life better?
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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
So would I. And the way to do that is via better funded services.
How would leaving the EU specifically make your life better?
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
If you're flying to say Sweden, and your plane arrives late, or takes off late, how are you going to pass laws that regulate what happens in their country? How will you pass laws that determine what phone companies can charge UK consumers in other countries?
Yes it might. Lets hope so. Unfortunately, if you look at economists that have modeled it its not looking too peachy. And if you factor in two other simple facts you can see why:
1) The EU will not give us better terms that we get within the EU.
2) We trade mostly with our neighbors, as all countries round the world do.
So you agree that buying food from cheap African producers is not a rosy benefit of Brexit? I agree with you, we want to protect our own industries not sell them down the river.
Germany, France the UK have done well out of the EU. They are nations that are ready to trade and opening up markets to freer trade has benefited them. No two ways about it. To say leaving the worlds largest free trade zone will help the UK trade, certainly seems illogical. Some would say it's totally bonkers.
So we're taking the pain and disruption of Brexit to not necessarily reduce immigration. I agree. But I'd ask why. For what benefit? Control = more red tape. It doesn't make me feel lovely and warm that its our own red tape. If the outcome is likely the same, what is the point?
I was thinking about this earlier when looking at @nayimfromthehalfwayline posts. His positions are relatively fluid, so long as they support Leave. But he voted Remain. I thought, if I had to argue for Leaving, and he had to argue for Remaining, as an exercise, it would be interesting. Maybe we can try it later.
I am open to change and development. To shake things up and for the UK to be more agile. What frustrates me is that we should do that while staying in the free trade block. The things we need to change in the UK are not dependent on the EU imo. I don't have complaints against the EU. In general they represent us, help us, give us a seat at the top table, and offer a balance of free trade, a forum to work and trade with our close partner nations, they ensure environmental issues are fairly respected, and keep an eye on corporate excesses that harm EU consumers - like phone charges or flight compensation. The EU government has the same amount of workers as Birmingham council. It attracts some of the best and brightest from all over Europe. I'm up for having a go at spinning a Leave argument, but it would be tough, because if you look at outcomes, where we go after, its hard to discern more attractive option than we have now. I think that is why no one has published a vision for UK Brexit (apart from Daniel Hannan who then removed it because it was frankly embarrassing).
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nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
The EU is not a free trade zone. It is a political union. We signed up to a free trade zone, and it changed. Perhaps with our blessing, but the point remains it is not the organisation we joined.
As the example of CETA shows, the EU are willing to enter free trade agreements WITHOUT having to be part of the political union.
We are leaving the EU. Why is it so unthinkable we remain in/rejoin the free trade bloc in isolation? If they let Canada, why not us? Especially as we are already integrated at a regulatory level etc.
You keep pointing to things like phone charges and missed flights etc - which are of course rather nice benefits to have. Is it right to assume though that they are exclusive to the EU? Is @ricky2tricky4city not correct in pointing out we can join that same policy? Its the sort of arrangement that can work in isolation and benefits both sides.
Im not saying there arent benefits to being in the EU, but most of the benefits people tell me are so necessary - I dont see why we cant have them outside the EU.
This is where I feel there is an odd disconnect. People talk of leaving as an absolute. We have been clear all along, we want to trade - and we want to have our own democracy/sovereignty/borders/you know the rest.
And the more I think about it, the more I struggle to understand why that is such an issue, especially when the EU is showing it will trade freely with non EU nations.
As the example of CETA shows, the EU are willing to enter free trade agreements WITHOUT having to be part of the political union.
We are leaving the EU. Why is it so unthinkable we remain in/rejoin the free trade bloc in isolation? If they let Canada, why not us? Especially as we are already integrated at a regulatory level etc.
You keep pointing to things like phone charges and missed flights etc - which are of course rather nice benefits to have. Is it right to assume though that they are exclusive to the EU? Is @ricky2tricky4city not correct in pointing out we can join that same policy? Its the sort of arrangement that can work in isolation and benefits both sides.
Im not saying there arent benefits to being in the EU, but most of the benefits people tell me are so necessary - I dont see why we cant have them outside the EU.
This is where I feel there is an odd disconnect. People talk of leaving as an absolute. We have been clear all along, we want to trade - and we want to have our own democracy/sovereignty/borders/you know the rest.
And the more I think about it, the more I struggle to understand why that is such an issue, especially when the EU is showing it will trade freely with non EU nations.
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
i agree with most of this, and the irony is @nayimfromthehalfwayline and i could sit in the pub over a pint and nod in agreement on many points yet we (i think im correct) voted on opposite sides.
The small guys don't count?
The point is (beyond what i have already posted), it changes a system, that many wanted changing (not me btw, i have no view), to something more acceptable to them. The system/processes in place for non- eu nationals would be standardised for everyone applying to come. More work, yes, red-tape, no.
I dont disagree with many of the positives you lay down about the EU. (hey we may steal a few of them)
How would you facilitate change and development and shake things up within the current set-up, while considering the reasons behind voters motives to vote leave. What does that look like beyond a soundbite?
Empathy with others views, and a will to explore those views (with the hope you may change those views, or even your own) is a beautiful thing, rather than poo pooing something on the basis that it is not aligned with your view or just plain ridiculous (in your eyes).
So it's not really working? And even one of the countries who have 'done well' has decided to leave.
The small guys don't count?
The point is (beyond what i have already posted), it changes a system, that many wanted changing (not me btw, i have no view), to something more acceptable to them. The system/processes in place for non- eu nationals would be standardised for everyone applying to come. More work, yes, red-tape, no.
I dont disagree with many of the positives you lay down about the EU. (hey we may steal a few of them)
How would you facilitate change and development and shake things up within the current set-up, while considering the reasons behind voters motives to vote leave. What does that look like beyond a soundbite?
Empathy with others views, and a will to explore those views (with the hope you may change those views, or even your own) is a beautiful thing, rather than poo pooing something on the basis that it is not aligned with your view or just plain ridiculous (in your eyes).
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
Oh I see, so you thought leaving meant making the EU irrelevant to the world.
Jesus.....guess what, that power the EU has isn't dependent on the UK
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
I never said that pal
The fact is everyone has a different view on the world if i was you I would accept that rather than have a pop.
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
I am fully aware of it, thank you.
But I will still challenge.
You stated it's "only the power the EU has" that is stopping us "going it alone". which is a position open to challenge, and frankly open to ridicule and seemingly is able to be backed up.
But that's the great thing about debate, it gives everyone a platform to explain how their version works....
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
@ricky2tricky4city "How would you facilitate change and development and shake things up within the current set-up, while considering the reasons behind voters motives to vote leave. What does that look like beyond a soundbite?"
Create a National Drive for one area of the UK to update. It could change every parliament and 5 years. But something where people can participate and make Britain great again. We need to shake things up, and what Brexit has shown is that people are open to being active. We can't just have the elite in parliament running everything. They are isolated, and only care about how they look and being voted back in. Education would be a good one to start with. It could also be for sports and fitness, the NHS, making the Government Ministries efficient (horribly wasteful now) and we could use TV and internet to deconstruct what they do currently, and what could be done differently, with people voting for ideas online, and a budget to make shows on how it works/ doesn't. Just ideas, throwing it out there..
Training and education so Brits could be in a better position to take work. You could have trade accreditation that only people in the UK can get. They could be of an exemplary standard. Then consumers, builders etc would look to recruit individuals with this UK mark of excellence.
We could have a focus on developing the UKs manufacturing industries. Maybe nationalise some industries like the railways. Provide government funding to manufacturing innovation and try to build jobs on our exemplary engineering knowledge. Germany exports far far more to the rest of the world than we do, and they do it just fine from within the EU. Why will leaving help us?
The tough one is immigration when you have freedom of movement. But there are things we can do. 1. Every EU immigrant has to register and provide details of where they will live. If they are not working within 3 weeks or have sufficient funds saved then we boot them out. 2. We ensure that Brits are better equipped for work than foreigners. For example, at the moment we charge trainee nurses £9k a year to train! 9k to work - for free - on wards. We don't have to do that. We could get more UK people if we wanted. We can also setup measures of excellence that favor British workers.
In short, there are all sorts of things we could do, while in the EU. The EU is relatively innovative. Its developing, changing, finding new areas it can help people - for example phone roaming used to cost us an arm and leg a few years back, now its all included in your minutes when traveling in Europe. It is national governments that are stale, devoid of innovation and vision, and all over the world we are seeing a backlash against the same old same old - imo. We need people in government who are not just concern with the way they look, but with shaking things up in new and fresh ways. Sadly we get the same look and same kinds of policies we have had for decades. That's why Brexit is tantalizing, it promises radical shift and upheaval. Sadly its a backward step in terms of trade and working with partners, and isn't revolutionary at all. Its just closing ourselves off, not looking internally and shaking things up - which is what needs to be done.
Create a National Drive for one area of the UK to update. It could change every parliament and 5 years. But something where people can participate and make Britain great again. We need to shake things up, and what Brexit has shown is that people are open to being active. We can't just have the elite in parliament running everything. They are isolated, and only care about how they look and being voted back in. Education would be a good one to start with. It could also be for sports and fitness, the NHS, making the Government Ministries efficient (horribly wasteful now) and we could use TV and internet to deconstruct what they do currently, and what could be done differently, with people voting for ideas online, and a budget to make shows on how it works/ doesn't. Just ideas, throwing it out there..
Training and education so Brits could be in a better position to take work. You could have trade accreditation that only people in the UK can get. They could be of an exemplary standard. Then consumers, builders etc would look to recruit individuals with this UK mark of excellence.
We could have a focus on developing the UKs manufacturing industries. Maybe nationalise some industries like the railways. Provide government funding to manufacturing innovation and try to build jobs on our exemplary engineering knowledge. Germany exports far far more to the rest of the world than we do, and they do it just fine from within the EU. Why will leaving help us?
The tough one is immigration when you have freedom of movement. But there are things we can do. 1. Every EU immigrant has to register and provide details of where they will live. If they are not working within 3 weeks or have sufficient funds saved then we boot them out. 2. We ensure that Brits are better equipped for work than foreigners. For example, at the moment we charge trainee nurses £9k a year to train! 9k to work - for free - on wards. We don't have to do that. We could get more UK people if we wanted. We can also setup measures of excellence that favor British workers.
In short, there are all sorts of things we could do, while in the EU. The EU is relatively innovative. Its developing, changing, finding new areas it can help people - for example phone roaming used to cost us an arm and leg a few years back, now its all included in your minutes when traveling in Europe. It is national governments that are stale, devoid of innovation and vision, and all over the world we are seeing a backlash against the same old same old - imo. We need people in government who are not just concern with the way they look, but with shaking things up in new and fresh ways. Sadly we get the same look and same kinds of policies we have had for decades. That's why Brexit is tantalizing, it promises radical shift and upheaval. Sadly its a backward step in terms of trade and working with partners, and isn't revolutionary at all. Its just closing ourselves off, not looking internally and shaking things up - which is what needs to be done.
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SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Can you give examples of how the EU is a political union? We have a national parliament last time I checked. So does every other EU nation... The EU is a customs union that allows free movement of goods, services, people and capital.
Re. trade
As we discussed, CETA is nothing like suitable for the UK. It covers some areas of free trade and would not work for the UK. So suggesting it shows a template that would work for us is too simplistic. It took years to agree and covers all sorts of detail. 80-90% of our economy is services, CETA doesn't even cover services.
As outlined before, we trade most with our neighbors. True?
The EU will not give us better trading terms outside the EU. True?
You keep pointing to things like phone charges and missed flights etc - which are of course rather nice benefits to have. Is it right to assume though that they are exclusive to the EU?
Yes. The UK can not make laws that govern other countries! These kinds of laws, also on pollution, only work across nations.
The EU is not showing it will trade freely with countries outside the customs union. The customs union protects and favors those inside. Its like a city wall that stops traders the city doesn't want from coming in. But that is how the US works, and every other country. By having a larger area for free trade you increase prosperity. FTAs with Canada etc are not fully open trade.
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
Thankyou @SpurMeUp for taking the time to reply.
It's such a broad subject that it is sometimes difficult to align everything into a cohesive view/plan, call it what you will.
Ironically a firm leaver c.ould of written 80% of your post when asked the same questions. I assume that what you suggest, in your view, would be easier to deliver without the uncertainty and probable period of downturn that brexit will bring. And i agree with that. However i'm not sure the motivation would be there to embark on anything you suggest if we carry on as we were. Brexit would be the catalyst for change. (oh my i'm sounding like a politician
)Now i agree completely about the apathy towards politics, it's downright uninspiring and full of so little talent. And i agree with your notion that it needs fresh ideas and shaking up. BUT i would also add, don't rely on the people either, they may vote for change but don't rely on them to en masse facilitate that change.
Brexit has a much higher chance of being a disaster because of the personnel and dynamic, even more so than the details of deal. The vote was so close that we virtually have a divided country. As proven on this very forum and social media, it's a long unforgiving debate with little movement and a good deal of name calling, belittling, ridicule, disrespect etc (not much on gg btw). That doesn't bode well for delivering such a generation defining process. If half the country wasn't really up for it, will they rally round for the sake of the country....i don't see it. Finger pointing will be rife and the blame game will very much be open season. Sadly this is combined with the biggest bunch of incompetents, led by the weakest leader we should have hoped for leading us into the abyss of brexit.
My gut told me this, i ignored it. Perhaps @nayimfromthehalfwayline @scaramanga were sensible in voting to remain although they appreciate the opportunities of leaving.
One final thing ......do remember, that what we are leaving, isn't in a great state itself.
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nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Are you really going to suggest it is "just" a trading bloc?
From the EU website:
- Democracy
The functioning of the EU is founded on representative democracy. Being a European citizen also means enjoying political rights. Every adult EU citizen has the right to stand as a candidate and to vote in elections to the European Parliament. EU citizens have the right to stand as candidate and to vote in their country of residence, or in their country of origin.
- Equality
Equality is about equal rights for all citizens before the law. The principle of equality between women and men underpins all European policies and is the basis for European integration. It applies in all areas. The principle of equal pay for equal work became part of the Treaty of in 1957. Although inequalities still exist, the EU has made significant progress.
- Rule of law
The EU is based on the rule of law. Everything the EU does is founded on treaties, voluntarily and democratically agreed by its member countries. Law and justice are upheld by an independent judiciary. The member countries gave final jurisdiction to the European Court of Justice which judgements have to be respected by all.
- Human rights
Human rights are protected by the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. These cover the right to be free from discrimination on the basis of sex, racial or ethnic origin, religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation, the right to the protection of your personal data, and or the right to get access to justice.
From economic to political union
The European Union is a unique economic and political union between 28 European countries that together cover much of the continent.
The predecessor of the EU was created in the aftermath of the Second World War. The first steps were to foster economic cooperation: the idea being that countries that trade with one another become economically interdependent and so more likely to avoid conflict.
The result was the European Economic Community (EEC), created in 1958, and initially increasing economic cooperation between six countries: Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands.
Since then, 22 other members joined and a huge single market (also known as the 'internal' market) has been created and continues to develop towards its full potential.
What began as a purely economic union has evolved into an organization spanning policy areas, from climate, environment and health to external relations and security, justice and migration. A name change from the European Economic Community (EEC) to the European Union (EU) in 1993 reflected this.
....
Transparent and democratic institutions
The EU remains focused on making its governing institutions more transparent and democratic. More powers have been given to the directly elected European Parliament, while national parliaments play a greater role, working alongside the European institutions. In turn, European citizens have an ever-increasing number of channels for taking part in the political process.
The EU is governed by the principle of representative democracy, with citizens directly represented at Union level in the European Parliament and Member States represented in the European Council and the Council of the EU.
And thats just this page: https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en
That being what the EU is today, this being its intentions:
Scenario 5: Doing much more together
Here the EU27 go “further than ever before in all domains” — code for a federal EU.
The EU would get more of its “own resources” (the ability to raise revenue through tax), the eurozone would be completed along the lines of the Five Presidents’ Report issued in 2015. The Commission prefers this option for eurozone governance and said it will issue a reflection paper to that effect in the coming months.
Under this scenario the EU would also assume powers to speak for all of Europe on trade and foreign policy, and would assume global leadership for fighting climate change and on humanitarian issues.
There would be “far greater and quicker decision-making” in Brussels, but the Commission acknowledges “there is the risk of alienating parts of society which feel that the EU lacks legitimacy.”
https://www.politico.eu/article/breaking-politico-obtains-white-paper-on-eu-future/
And thats before pointing out the EU is structured as a Parliament, a Council, a Commission, a Bank...
Are you honestly going to say you believe the EU is "just" a trading bloc, and not politcial union?
You miss the point, CETA, in a copy and past move, is not what Im talking about. CETA proves something very significant. The EU are willing to enter a free trading agreement with a non EU state without enforcing the four pillars. This is beyond significant, this sets a precedent.
In two years we will not be an EU state. We will be like Canada. And it is shown there is a willingness to do deals on terms we might like.
I do undestand CETA is not complete free trade as services are not involved. Who cares? Almost everything else is invovled, with a country on another continent.
As you like to point out, we are their neighbours, they will probably want to trade with us heavily.
We are already integrated, we already have the regulations, we already have the flows of products and services. And THEY have already shown they will do free trade with out siders. Why couldnt we strike a deal that works for us (and them)?
And again, you miss the point on phone tariffs. Why couldnt we strike a reciprocal agreement with another country on matters like this? Absolutely no reason. It would suit the EU for travellers coming to the UK, and vice versa. You dont need to be part of a union to have mutually beneficial agreements.
Do you suppose our security services will completely disconnect? We wont share information and intelligence?
Do you suppose our military wont help in the event it is required? We will watch our neighbours get invaded?
Do you suppose we wont be involved in cross country/continent policies and agreements on the environment?
The point being, agreements are made across nations all the time, when they are mutually beneficial and the nations agree - so why on earth wouldnt we find agreements on (especially) items that themselves cross nations like telecoms and travel? It is entirely possible, if not likely.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I've never met a leaver who doesn't want/appreciate international co-operation on a multitude of things. But the key word is inter-national - between nations. The problems of principle come with the idea that we should outsource crucial areas of polity to an unaccountable third party, who can then enforce things against democratic will.
Could you ever imagine America, Canada and Mexico outsourcing many of their key areas of governance to a new quango called the North American Union? The EU has spawned into an imperialist monster well beyond the remit of any consent it has ever been given.
Could you ever imagine America, Canada and Mexico outsourcing many of their key areas of governance to a new quango called the North American Union? The EU has spawned into an imperialist monster well beyond the remit of any consent it has ever been given.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
Unfortunately I am not intelligent enough to articulate what I mean, just how it goes
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
@SpurMeUp , check this out:
Mobile network Three has announced that its customers will be able to use their phones abroad at no extra cost in a further 11 destinations outside of the EU from today.
This takes the total number of Go Roam destinations to 71.
It comes after roaming charges were banned across the EU in June - with the law now stating that firms can no longer charge customers extra for using their data allowance in European Union countries.
New destinations added to Three's list of all-inclusive data include Chile, Colombia and Costa Rica, plus El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, Peru, Uruguay, Vietnam and Mayotte.
Other long haul destinations where Three customers can roam at no extra include USA, Australia, New Zealand and Indonesia.
The firm said the move was to tackle 'long haul' destinations favoured by Brits.
Dave Dyson, Chief Executive at Three, said: "My ambition is to free our customers and offer 100% free roaming worldwide, and we will continue to abolish unfair roaming charges until we achieve this.
"We’re passionate about improving our customers’ experience when travelling abroad, so they can stay connected and use their phones just as they do at home. To reassure our customers, we have also committed to no changes to roaming on Three following Brexit."
Now, while Ill happily conceed this probably wouldnt have happened without the EU ruling getting the ball rolling - this also shows you dont need to have an over arching union to make things happen in other countries. You can just come to agreements or decisions independently. Now that Three have taken this step, what odds on the major networks following? WITHOUT the EU being required?
Mobile network Three has announced that its customers will be able to use their phones abroad at no extra cost in a further 11 destinations outside of the EU from today.
This takes the total number of Go Roam destinations to 71.
It comes after roaming charges were banned across the EU in June - with the law now stating that firms can no longer charge customers extra for using their data allowance in European Union countries.
New destinations added to Three's list of all-inclusive data include Chile, Colombia and Costa Rica, plus El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, Peru, Uruguay, Vietnam and Mayotte.
Other long haul destinations where Three customers can roam at no extra include USA, Australia, New Zealand and Indonesia.
The firm said the move was to tackle 'long haul' destinations favoured by Brits.
Dave Dyson, Chief Executive at Three, said: "My ambition is to free our customers and offer 100% free roaming worldwide, and we will continue to abolish unfair roaming charges until we achieve this.
"We’re passionate about improving our customers’ experience when travelling abroad, so they can stay connected and use their phones just as they do at home. To reassure our customers, we have also committed to no changes to roaming on Three following Brexit."
Now, while Ill happily conceed this probably wouldnt have happened without the EU ruling getting the ball rolling - this also shows you dont need to have an over arching union to make things happen in other countries. You can just come to agreements or decisions independently. Now that Three have taken this step, what odds on the major networks following? WITHOUT the EU being required?
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
So what you are saying is.....there is a powerful and influential union that creates laws and sets precident which can be used to influence business positively for consumers?
Sounds pretty good that.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
What Im saying is, his insistence it can only happen if you are part of the club isnt actually true.
Clearly, and categorically, said it probably wouldnt have happened without the EU - but that wasnt the point, was it?
Clearly, and categorically, said it probably wouldnt have happened without the EU - but that wasnt the point, was it?
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
Gotcha.
Like most things in life, the truth lay in the middle ground. And the EU will have wide ranging influence.
A deal that gives us good access but no decision making (IE Norway) will actually be a good deal - we cannot escape the influence of the EU but by staying close and being noisy we almost act like a lobby group.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
What was the catalyst for this change? Not our nation state, but actually the EU. Until they got involved phone companies were cashing in. But lets not give credit where its due if it doesn't support ones bias.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I can only assume you completely missed the point of the post.