Politics, politics, politics

[scaramanga]

Stop pretending that you are not a good socialist -- you let us all talk sh1t here for free, even flagrant freeloaders like myself.

That's altruism - you're all a charity case. That way it fits perfectly into my capitalist ideals.

And you are at least honest with your politics, even though I profoundly disagree with you on the economic side of the argument (on some social issues, we do agree on things, drug policy etc). You don't pretend to give 2 phucks about people worse off than you are and I doubt you'd stand there in Parliament sobbing about it. I have a problem with Heidi Allen crying for the poor whilst being a Tory MP who votes along with the government on policies that hurt those same people. That's just bullsh1t. It' like she's saying "Hey, don't blame me! At least I feel bad about phucking you in the arse!"

I actually do want what's best for all, I just don't feel that handouts are the long term solution to it.

I can find an individual's plight emotionally distressing whilst still believing that the choices causing that plight are the right ones as a whole for the country - I don't see any cognitive dissonance there. A general may shed a tear for hundreds of soldiers lost in a war to save millions - that doesn't make his decisions any less wrong or his choices any less valid.

 

[the dza]

@the dza , I definitely think there is a regionality to these kind of things.

As I said, where Im from half the town are professional scroungers with no intent to work, having never had intent to work. Most flunked out of school, had kids ASAP and went on the council thereafter.

Its clear there are places like this around the UK, and in these areas the idea of foreign workers coming in to fill the gap is entirely valid.

Of course, that doesnt speak for the whole country.

Me? I and the other half of my town always got on and worked. I think since I was 15 Ive spent maybe 2 weeks out of work. Ive laboured, been in factories, gardening, worked at a car wash, temped in office work and now Im in IT. Ive done tonnes of low paid work, and know plenty of people who do.

Anecdotally, right where I work now? (actually not the same town) Canteen staff are 80% foreign. Toilet cleaners 400%. There is a major building works behind my building, 90% of the voices I hear in passing are eastern european....

Whether that means the Brits think they are too good for this work, or there is a genuine gap in people resource I dont know. Possibly a bit of both?

I think you are right, different areas of the country are going to have different experiences. I just don't agree with the generalisation that there's this huge array of jobs that British people can't/won't do, because in my own life I have seen all kinds of people doing all kinds of jobs, with my own eyes. As I say, it's only fruit-picking that seems to be exclusively done by people from Eastern Europe. But how was all the fruit getting picked in the 1980s/1990s? A lot of those countries were in the Soviet Union then, the EU was much smaller and didn't stretch so far to the east.

 

[Baleforce]

from my own experience, hiring for an IT dept in London, base education and literacy levels of recent non graduate education leavers are shocking, there is also very little correlation between experience, effort, self improvement and wage expectation and entitlements

 

[the dza]

That's altruism - you're all a charity case. That way it fits perfectly into my capitalist ideals.

I can't argue with that!

I actually do want what's best for all, I just don't feel that handouts are the long term solution to it.

I can find an individual's plight emotionally distressing whilst still believing that the choices causing that plight are the right ones as a whole for the country - I don't see any cognitive dissonance there. A general may shed a tear for hundreds of soldiers lost in a war to save millions - that doesn't make his decisions any less wrong or his choices any less valid.

Yeah, but if the general starts crying because "he's only following orders" as he executes civilians on the losing side in the war, then phuck him and his tears.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think you are right, different areas of the country are going to have different experiences. I just don't agree with the generalisation that there's this huge array of jobs that British people can't/won't do, because in my own life I have seen all kinds of people doing all kinds of jobs, with my own eyes. As I say, it's only fruit-picking that seems to be exclusively done by people from Eastern Europe. But how was all the fruit getting picked in the 1980s/1990s? A lot of those countries were in the Soviet Union then, the EU was much smaller and didn't stretch so far to the east.

I meant to add, in that regional argument - there are areas where there just isnt work as well. No industry etc. Clearly its a complex situation.

I agree with you, generalisation doesnt always help the conversation.

At the risk of opening a can of worms, I also think welfare factors in.

The scroungers I know, its not actually worth them working. For the effort of going and putting in 40 hours somewhere, they arent really better off.

Conversely, someone coming over from eastern europe - being given welfare AND £8-9 an hour sees it as a huge appeal, and it really is a massive increase in finance and quality of life for them.

 

[Baleforce]

I think you are right, different areas of the country are going to have different experiences. I just don't agree with the generalisation that there's this huge array of jobs that British people can't/won't do, because in my own life I have seen all kinds of people doing all kinds of jobs, with my own eyes. As I say, it's only fruit-picking that seems to be exclusively done by people from Eastern Europe. But how was all the fruit getting picked in the 1980s/1990s? A lot of those countries were in the Soviet Union then, the EU was much smaller and didn't stretch so far to the east.

I wouldn’t label it as “can’t/won’t do”, rather, “you can get a lot more for your money”

 

[DTA]

I think you are right, different areas of the country are going to have different experiences. I just don't agree with the generalisation that there's this huge array of jobs that British people can't/won't do, because in my own life I have seen all kinds of people doing all kinds of jobs, with my own eyes. As I say, it's only fruit-picking that seems to be exclusively done by people from Eastern Europe. But how was all the fruit getting picked in the 1980s/1990s? A lot of those countries were in the Soviet Union then, the EU was much smaller and didn't stretch so far to the east.

It' wage inflation again. You pay me enough money and I will pick the fudging fruit myself.... if you pay (I'm guessing even more) @scaramanga might be tempted to pick the fruit.

Problem is the fruit will be damn expensive to buy.

 

[the dza]

It' wage inflation again. You pay me enough money and I will pick the fudging fruit myself.... if you pay (I'm guessing even more) @scaramanga might be tempted to pick the fruit.

Problem is the fruit will be damn expensive to buy.

I don't disagree with you, but it wasn't always people from Eastern Europe doing it, so who did it before them? Was it unaffordable for ordinary people to buy at that time?

I'm not talking about tales from the grandparents of hop picking in the school holidays, but more recently, in the 80s and 90s. I have heard an anecdotal story about who/how it was done, but I don't know how reliable that is.

 

[Gutter Boy]

That's a fair point. Do whips only 'enforce' manifesto votes? If so then ok that does make sense.

I'm not sure. I'd imagine most business is covered by the manifestos anyway, e.g. broadly 'delivering Brexit' was in both Tory and Labour ones. But I know there are free votes on matters of conscious type issues

to jump into that analogy, the problem is that all of the academy kids turn up late, can't lace their boots let alone address the ball properly and think they should be straight into the first team

the "mediocre Scandinavians" are capable, hard working and reliable, all for a market value wage

But that's due to a lack of education and disincentives. Compare our academy graduates now, to those pre-McDermott and Inglethorpe, in terms of attitude and performance.

Generally I find most Generation Zs are dull and lack imagination, but they are conscientious. I think the education system/incentives have actually gone a bit too East Asian - they can pass exams but not do critical thinking

 

[Gutter Boy]

I must admit, I haven't seen this alternate really that people live in where there are these super human foreigners doing jobs that British people simply can't/won't do. I know a care worker who is British, apparently they don't exist though. I work with warehouse workers who are British and foreign, I have seen both British and foreign people who couldn't do the job quick enough so they were let go. I have been served coffee by British people and foreigners, I didn't notice a difference. I have done agency work in factories with British and foreign workers. I've done labouring on building sites when I was younger, I didn't notice any British people refusing to do it.

I think British workers are less likely to tolerate exploitation and foreign workers are more grateful and compliant, they will tolerate bricky conditions more readily. Blame the "lazy British" for that, or fat greedy qunts like Mike Ashley, one of many.

Fruit picking is about the only job that seems to be foreigners only. How did it used to get done before? It couldn't have all entirely been done by kids in the summer holidays.

In lots of places like Derbyshire and Teesside there are plenty of resident people fighting for low paid job. I think it's a south-east thing that it's seen as not worth their while

Students and backpackers were the traditional fruit pickers. But the new student loan system, which includes living cost as well as fees, means less students do holiday work now.

 

[DTA]

I don't disagree with you, but it wasn't always people from Eastern Europe doing it, so who did it before them? Was it unaffordable for ordinary people to buy at that time?

I'm not talking about tales from the grandparents of hop picking in the school holidays, but more recently, in the 80s and 90s. I have heard an anecdotal story about who/how it was done, but I don't know how reliable that is.

Not sure to be honest. Less connectivity of global global fruit markets, meaning imported fruit was more expensive? The economy has grown but lower wages has not grown at pace? The socioeconomic groups that done the fruit picking have now moved on to better paying fields.... become labourers perhaps???

 

[Baleforce]

I'm not sure. I'd imagine most business is covered by the manifestos anyway, e.g. broadly 'delivering Brexit' was in both Tory and Labour ones. But I know there are free votes on matters of conscious type issues



But that's due to a lack of education and disincentives. Compare our academy graduates now, to those pre-McDermott and Inglethorpe, in terms of attitude and performance.

Generally I find most Generation Zs are dull and lack imagination, but they are conscientious. I think the education system/incentives have actually gone a bit too East Asian - they can pass exams but not do critical thinking

the education system has failed, we can’t rely on it to replace the workforce that stopping FoM will turn away

 

[Gutter Boy]

the education system has failed, we can’t rely on it to replace the workforce that stopping FoM will turn away

So write off a wasted generation? Like the deindustrialised communities in the 70s and 80s?

Whose interests are we looking after? Our society? Or multinational corporations?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

the education system has failed, we can’t rely on it to replace the workforce that stopping FoM will turn away

If we are talking minimum wage level work then this is just simply not true.

If we are talking more skilled work, then that is where we make immigration work to our favour.

 

[Baleforce]

If we are talking minimum wage level work then this is just simply not true.

If we are talking more skilled work, then that is where we make immigration work to our favour.

we have been, quite successfully

 

[Baleforce]

So write off a wasted generation? Like the deindustrialised communities in the 70s and 80s?

Whose interests are we looking after? Our society? Or multinational corporations?

clearly we need to find a balance for both, we can’t afford to chase employers away either

 

[Parklaner81]

And, of course, how much to we REALLY need cheap EU labour? Personally I think it would be interesting to find out. Where I come from half the town are career benefit recipients, for no reason other than a lack of education. Like I said, Id be all in favour of them having to earn their keep, so to speak. It could be, when all is said and done, that its better for us to not have such ready access to cheap labour. Just one theory, but the point is to challenge the notion it is a must.

I don't disagree with you, but it wasn't always people from Eastern Europe doing it, so who did it before them? Was it unaffordable for ordinary people to buy at that time?

I think these questions tie in with something I hinted at previously, in terms of the huge influx of eastern European migrants seen after the government failed to impose transitional restrictions in 2004.

The fact that the Labour government of the time were so spectacularly blind-sided by this (they forecast something like 10k arrivals p/year) suggests to me that there wasn't actually some massive gaping hole, or that the economy was somehow grinding to a halt for want of labour. The economy managed to absorb all of that increased labour capacity, but that isn't necessarily the same thing as saying that it needed it. So if an issue of dependency does exist today, which like the other posters quoted here I don't necessarily swallow, it seems to me that it is at least partially self-created, by the lax immigration policy of previous (predominantly Labour) governments rather than some completely inevitable or irreversible fact of life.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I don't disagree with you, but it wasn't always people from Eastern Europe doing it, so who did it before them? Was it unaffordable for ordinary people to buy at that time?

I'm not talking about tales from the grandparents of hop picking in the school holidays, but more recently, in the 80s and 90s. I have heard an anecdotal story about who/how it was done, but I don't know how reliable that is.

Yep it was students and youngsters who used to do casual fruit picking work in the summer months. We also used to have a lot of teachers come on building sites in the summer months and do casual work. They used to like earning a bit extra in the summer months, would work a few weeks then go off and do holiday stuff. But that was also a time when people not only did not mind working they quite liked being in a different working environment for a few weeks, reminded what they studying for.

Blair created a country of lazy freeloaders.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I think these questions tie in with something I hinted at previously, in terms of the huge influx of eastern European migrants seen after the government failed to impose transitional restrictions in 2004.

The fact that the Labour government of the time were so spectacularly blind-sided by this (they forecast something like 10k arrivals p/year) suggests to me that there wasn't actually some massive gaping hole, or that the economy was somehow grinding to a halt for want of labour. The economy managed to absorb all of that increased labour capacity, but that isn't necessarily the same thing as saying that it needed it. So if an issue of dependency does exist today, which like the other posters quoted here I don't necessarily swallow, it seems to me that it is at least partially self-created by the lax immigration policy of previous (predominantly Labour) governments rather than some completely inevitable or irreversible fact of life.

Labour were not blind-sided at all.

Fact not opinion,

They wanted "to rub the rights nose in it"
They wanted to lower the cost of employing trades people to make the middle class feel better off
They wanted a workforce while leaving their core support untouched on increasingly dodgy benefits(they started signing record level of people sick to work)

It was about Blair staying in power had fcuk to do with the good of the country.

 

[Parklaner81]

Labour were not blind-sided at all.

I was just trying to be diplomatic really