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Politics, politics, politics

I slightly disagree.
UK politics is such a loaded whipping machine (daily mail headline of the future) that I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if just did what she was told.

If she really gives a damn, she'll take the party on. She'll highlight the issue and try and effect change.
I can understand why she may not have done so in the past, defying the whip can end you career - but now is a great chance to be a good politician or even just be a cynical career politician and make a name for herself whilst also doing something good.
Anyone that makes a name for themselves in the next few months could easily find themselves in the cabinet (or shadow)....heck, maybe even PM. This govt is weak and feckless.

Right -- but then don't stand there crying about bad things happening, as if she is just some by-stander who has nothing to do with it. Might as well dry her eyes and blow her nose with a £20 note.

As you say, now is the time. Individual MPs won't ever have any more power than when there is a minority government. A small number of MPs can get leverage if there is an important issue they really care about. But it's a lot easier to pay lip service, to look like they care, than actually risk their career progression.
 
I don't think its unreasonable. But I think you're missing the point. The real issue is public opinion vs the economy and industry. Nurses, road sweepers, fruit pickers, people to serving coffee in starbucks, nursing home workers, unskilled manual building laborers who get the worst jobs...where will the people to do these jobs come from? The UK? Should we pay more for our coffee and nursing homes to pay UK people more to work there, people who probably don't actually really want to work in these jobs anyway?

My second point is, if we need some immigration, and currently we have 50-50 appx with EU and non-EU, what great changes will we see in real terms post Brexit, and is it a price worth paying? Will it simply be a higher percentage from rest of the world as @nayimfromthehalfwayline suggests, or will we also cut the numbers and create a shortage of labor?

In essence simple questions.

We've been through this on here before. Getting a proper grip on immigration will involve addressing these issues and doing far more to train and develop more of our own nurses, carers etc. To me, that would be a positive thing - presumably though you disagree? If we could manage to do something about the way we instil in so many youngsters the belief that they're too special and important to do these kind of jobs, even better (though I'm probably stretching things here...). There's going to be an issue with the very low paying jobs but I'll say yet again - nobody here is suggesting entirely shutting immigration down. The suggestion is for sensible changes where they are possible and practical.

Again I'm not saying it will necessarily be straightforward or seamless, but I can clearly see the potential for positive longer-term changes.
 
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Right -- but then don't stand there crying about bad things happening, as if she is just some by-stander who has nothing to do with it. Might as well dry her eyes and blow her nose with a £20 note.

As you say, now is the time. Individual MPs won't ever have any more power than when there is a minority government. A small number of MPs can get leverage if there is an important issue they really care about. But it's a lot easier to pay lip service, to look like they care, than actually risk their career progression.

But doesn't the whole idea of having party whip undermine the principle of our democratic system? Or am I being dim?
 
We've been through this on here before. Getting a proper grip on immigration will involve addressing these issues and doing far more to train and develop more of our own nurses, carers etc. To me, that would be a postive thing - presumably though you disagree? If we could manage to do something about the way we instil in so many youngsters the belief that they're too special and important to do these kind of jobs, even better (though I'm probably stretching things here...). There's going to be an issue with the very low paying jobs but I'll say yet again - nobody here is suggesting entirely shutting immigration down. The suggestion is for sensible changes where they are possible and practical.

Again I'm not saying it will be necessarily be straightforward or seamless, but I can clearly see the potential for positive longer term changes.

There is potential for positive change. But there is also potential to create an even more unequal society... Looking at those in the Tory party that are pushing a hard Brexit... which one of these scenarios are we heading toward?
 
We've been through this on here before. Getting a proper grip on immigration will involve addressing these issues and doing far more to train and develop more of our own nurses, carers etc. To me, that would be a postive thing - presumably though you disagree? If we could manage to do something about the way we instil in so many youngsters the belief that they're too special and important to do these kind of jobs, even better (though I'm probably stretching things here...). There's going to be an issue with the very low paying jobs but I'll say yet again - nobody here is suggesting entirely shutting immigration down. The suggestion is for sensible changes where they are possible and practical.

Again I'm not saying it will be necessarily be straightforward or seamless, but I can clearly see the potential for positive longer term changes.

Doing more to train and develop people is something I completely agree with. We don’t need to leave the EU to do that!

Education is lacking in this country and we make trainee nurses pay fees to study and work on wards as part of their training which is absurd! But that’s not the EU, that’s all the UK government.

Instilling a change in ethics would be terrific, but again can you tell us what relevance this has to Brexit?

You acknowledge that we’ll need immigration for low skilled positions. If so, would you prefer polish fruit pickers, who go back to Poland after the season to people we bring in from outside the EU?

If we accept some immigration will happen post Brexit, you have to then ask, is it worth giving up free EU trade for such a small advance in UK immigration control? Yes it’s better the UK has this control, but at what cost? What is an acceptable cost for us to bear?

Finally, would you yourself take a low paid position? Where do young people get their ethics from?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
But doesn't the whole idea of having party whip undermine the principle of our democratic system? Or am I being dim?

MPs can still defy the whip, it will just hurt their career (they won't stay/get in the cabinet). In the end, it is still up to the individual to vote for what they think is right.
 
Doing more to train and develop people is something I completely agree with. We don’t need to leave the EU to do that!

Education is lacking in this country and we make trainee nurses pay fees to study and work on wards as part of their training which is absurd! But that’s not the EU, that’s all the UK government.

Instilling a change in ethics would be terrific, but again can you tell us what relevance this has to Brexit?

You acknowledge that we’ll need immigration for low skilled positions. If so, would you prefer polish fruit pickers, who go back to Poland after the season to people we bring in from outside the EU?

If we accept some immigration will happen post Brexit, you have to then ask, is it worth giving up free EU trade for such a small advance in UK immigration control? Yes it’s better the UK has this control, but at what cost? What is an acceptable cost for us to bear?

Finally, would you yourself take a low paid position? Where do young people get their ethics from?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

At the risk of repeating myself, unless my memory is playing tricks on me we've been through all this before in this thread, not too long ago. While relatively uncontrolled immigration persists (and this particularly applies to freedom of movement) there simply isn't sufficient incentive to address these things. They can just be papered over. Is that really a sustainable way forward?

Your argument that we don't need to leave the EU to achieve these things strikes me as similar in principle to the suggestion made more than once already in this thread, essentially that if we wanted to reduce immigration, we could achieve it by further restricting non-EU migrants - technically true, but entirely infeasible in reality.
 
@parklane81 a number of new questions put to you in my post which you’ve ducked.

The incentive to address is a democratic one - UK people want change. If there are good available people locally, would immigrants need to fill in, you might ask.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
We've been through this on here before. Getting a proper grip on immigration will involve addressing these issues and doing far more to train and develop more of our own nurses, carers etc. To me, that would be a postive thing - presumably though you disagree? If we could manage to do something about the way we instil in so many youngsters the belief that they're too special and important to do these kind of jobs, even better (though I'm probably stretching things here...). There's going to be an issue with the very low paying jobs but I'll say yet again - nobody here is suggesting entirely shutting immigration down. The suggestion is for sensible changes where they are possible and practical.

Again I'm not saying it will be necessarily be straightforward or seamless, but I can clearly see the potential for positive longer term changes.

I know this is simplistic, but as this is a football forum...

To me investing in skills is like building your academy to be the core of your side. Then when you by in from abroad, you go for the very best. That should be our approach to migration.

FoM is more like the old approach of buying in lots of mediocre Scandinavians (no offence, but a lot of them were), simply because they were cheaper than their British equivalents.

Basically we should loan John McDermott to the Home Office
 
But doesn't the whole idea of having party whip undermine the principle of our democratic system? Or am I being dim?

But you vote primarily for a manifesto. The whips are there to ensure the manifesto gets delivered, when challenged by mavericks and egos. I'm not saying its a good system, but that's the logic. There are often free votes on non-manifesto issues.
 
Doing more to train and develop people is something I completely agree with. We don’t need to leave the EU to do that!

Education is lacking in this country and we make trainee nurses pay fees to study and work on wards as part of their training which is absurd! But that’s not the EU, that’s all the UK government.

Instilling a change in ethics would be terrific, but again can you tell us what relevance this has to Brexit?

You acknowledge that we’ll need immigration for low skilled positions. If so, would you prefer polish fruit pickers, who go back to Poland after the season to people we bring in from outside the EU?

If we accept some immigration will happen post Brexit, you have to then ask, is it worth giving up free EU trade for such a small advance in UK immigration control? Yes it’s better the UK has this control, but at what cost? What is an acceptable cost for us to bear?

Finally, would you yourself take a low paid position? Where do young people get their ethics from?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Why would they be low paid? The supply-demand balance shifts if you stop importing cheap labour

Big societal improvements tend to come after population drops. The years after the plague and the potato famine are two examples. For the first time other than the late 90s/early 00s, we can manage that now, because birth rate is falling and we will soon be able to manage immigration to stop that driving continual expansion.
 
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@SpurMeUp , honestly - have a reset. Switch yourself off and then back on again!

We are leaving the EU, thats a done deal. It seems silly to keep arguing from a "yeah but why" point of view as it is entirely pointless.

Just as you are hung up on a 50/50 split, or being willing to squeeze the non EU side of that split to appease immigration. Forgetting that A) Thats just wrong, B) It doesnt account for the 'type' of immigrant and C) We are getting out of the EU, so all immigrants are immigrants - we dont need to discriminate.

There will be a new reality. Much of which, at this point, looks pretty uneasy. Though it all changes so rapidly who knows where that can end up?

However, on immigration, there is real chance for positive change.

Right now, immigration is high. As GB said, to cope with it we need to build a new Leeds every couple of years. For such a small island is that even feasible? Let alone, is that desirable? So something has to give.

We cannot control who comes from the EU. Not the number nor the type of person. Student? Skilled worker? Low Skilled worker? Scrounger? We have no control.

While we can control Non_EU, to satisfy the numbers we would effectively have to stop it, losing any people we really want/need. Its a non starter (as if it ever was an option).

My solution? One system for all.

If, as you are so keen to promote, we need fruitpickers, then we use the system to get fruit pickers. Simple.

We can choose the best and brightest, or the most needed, the skills required. We can focus on exactly what we NEED. And in the numbers we require. From a UK perspective that has to be preferable.

And, from a personal perspective - regardless of how the splits end up - if a fair policy is applied to ALL Ill be happy.

Of course, this would need to work in tandem with other systems and mechanisms.

Perhaps there is also a policy on the workshy having to earn their benefits? Perhaps there is a policy on young people taking part time work? The point is, one change to immigration wont be unilaterally effective. It will need to go hand in hand with other policies and systems.

The NHS is fudged, maybe our first priority is attracting doctors and nurses, and we are able to really get them in *from anywhere* in a targeted fashion?

If fruit pickers are required maybe we do a streamlined temporary visa, giving them the summer. Effectively this is how many work anyway = come for a few months and then go home.

Instead of being compromised we can be proactive in managing our needs and resources. Whats not to like?
 
@nayimfrimthehalfwayline technically how we leave the EU is far from a done deal.

I’m not hung up on a 50/50 split and have never ever said we should squeeze non-EU migrants. Not sure where u got that from.

All things being equal it would be terrific if we control immigration. But if that is at the expense of free trade with the EU then is it a silly question to ask whether it is worth it? Bearing in mind everyone agrees we will have immigration post Brexit anyway and we need local EU labor.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
But you vote primarily for a manifesto. The whips are there to ensure the manifesto gets delivered, when challenged by mavericks and egos. I'm not saying its a good system, but that's the logic. There are often free votes on non-manifesto issues.

That's a fair point. Do whips only 'enforce' manifesto votes? If so then ok that does make sense.
 
The gist of your posting has very much been we can reduce non-eu immigration to appease the numbers, unless Im mistaking you for someone else or Ive mis read you - in which case I apologise.

Given that immigration is, arguably, the defining driver behind Brexit I cannot imagine even this government being so stupid as to leave the EU and maintain free movement. That would kill them, their sense of self preservation must prevent it, if nothing else.

And thats a distinction to be recognised. "Immigration" is very different from "Free movement".



Define Free trade. Is it a literally free trading agreement? Something we dont have now...

Is it paying a fee to have the ability to trade? Something Im personally fine with (within reason), but does it follow that has to include free movement?

What of Hard Brexit? Something we are lead to believe is a distinct possibility...


And, of course, how much to we REALLY need cheap EU labour? Personally I think it would be interesting to find out. Where I come from half the town are career benefit recipients, for no reason other than a lack of education. Like I said, Id be all in favour of them having to earn their keep, so to speak. It could be, when all is said and done, that its better for us to not have such ready access to cheap labour. Just one theory, but the point is to challenge the notion it is a must.
 
I know this is simplistic, but as this is a football forum...

To me investing in skills is like building your academy to be the core of your side. Then when you by in from abroad, you go for the very best. That should be our approach to migration.

FoM is more like the old approach of buying in lots of mediocre Scandinavians (no offence, but a lot of them were), simply because they were cheaper than their British equivalents.

Basically we should loan John McDermott to the Home Office

to jump into that analogy, the problem is that all of the academy kids turn up late, can't lace their boots let alone address the ball properly and think they should be straight into the first team

the "mediocre Scandinavians" are capable, hard working and reliable, all for a market value wage
 
to jump into that analogy, the problem is that all of the academy kids turn up late, can't lace their boots let alone address the ball properly and think they should be straight into the first team

We've been through this on here before. Getting a proper grip on immigration will involve addressing these issues and doing far more to train and develop more of our own nurses, carers etc. To me, that would be a postive thing - presumably though you disagree? If we could manage to do something about the way we instil in so many youngsters the belief that they're too special and important to do these kind of jobs, even better (though I'm probably stretching things here...).....Again I'm not saying it will be necessarily be straightforward or seamless....

So it won't happen without a little bit of work and effort. Is that a reason to write it off as impossible and continue down an unsustainable path indefinitely?
 
to jump into that analogy, the problem is that all of the academy kids turn up late, can't lace their boots let alone address the ball properly and think they should be straight into the first team

the "mediocre Scandinavians" are capable, hard working and reliable, all for a market value wage

I must admit, I haven't seen this alternate really that people live in where there are these super human foreigners doing jobs that British people simply can't/won't do. I know a care worker who is British, apparently they don't exist though. I work with warehouse workers who are British and foreign, I have seen both British and foreign people who couldn't do the job quick enough so they were let go. I have been served coffee by British people and foreigners, I didn't notice a difference. I have done agency work in factories with British and foreign workers. I've done labouring on building sites when I was younger, I didn't notice any British people refusing to do it.

I think British workers are less likely to tolerate exploitation and foreign workers are more grateful and compliant, they will tolerate bricky conditions more readily. Blame the "lazy British" for that, or fat greedy qunts like Mike Ashley, one of many.

Fruit picking is about the only job that seems to be foreigners only. How did it used to get done before? It couldn't have all entirely been done by kids in the summer holidays.
 
@the dza , I definitely think there is a regionality to these kind of things.

As I said, where Im from half the town are professional scroungers with no intent to work, having never had intent to work. Most flunked out of school, had kids ASAP and went on the council thereafter.

Its clear there are places like this around the UK, and in these areas the idea of foreign workers coming in to fill the gap is entirely valid.

Of course, that doesnt speak for the whole country.

Me? I and the other half of my town always got on and worked. I think since I was 15 Ive spent maybe 2 weeks out of work. Ive laboured, been in factories, gardening, worked at a car wash, temped in office work and now Im in IT. Ive done tonnes of low paid work, and know plenty of people who do.

Anecdotally, right where I work now? (actually not the same town) Canteen staff are 80% foreign. Toilet cleaners 100%. There is a major building works behind my building, 90% of the voices I hear in passing are eastern european....

Whether that means the Brits think they are too good for this work, or there is a genuine gap in people resource I dont know. Possibly a bit of both?
 
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