Politics, politics, politics

[Gutter Boy]

Irrespective of Corbyn's desire to see the island united it won't be done quickly. Decoupling of NI from the UK will more than likely be a long drawn out affair over many many years. Having a catholic majority is only one small part of the picture. I do agree that it will happen at some point,but I believe but there will a number of transitional 'states' before then. Regulatory alignment being the first step in that direction. This is obviously the DUP's fear.

I think we're already in that transitional state. It pretty much already sits between Britain and Ireland - there's no borders, dual nationality, you can use Irish currency in the north etc. All that will really change is that governance will move away from Stormont (not London) to Dublin, and Ireland will take over the financial burden of the poorest part of the British Isles

 

[Rorschach]

I think we're already in that transitional state. It pretty much already sits between Britain and Ireland - there's no borders, dual nationality, you can use Irish currency in the north etc. All that will really change is that governance will move away from Stormont (not London) to Dublin, and Ireland will take over the financial burden of the poorest part of the British Isles

Disagree with most of that but gotta run

 

[r-u-s-x]

Good politicking on the Irish side, knew May agreed to something they couldn't deliver and rather than leave it and move on to trade talks made it public. May's move now

 

[the dza]

So May agreed to something with the Irish, but then took a call from Arlene. Probably went something like this:

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

£400 is a good wage. I'm guessing he is not lo/non skilled. As for your friends from India, yeah a friend of mine went through the same, in the end she had to go back. Another friend from Nigeria who had studied here from secondary school, went through uni etc didnt get perminant residency so was forced to go back... he saw himself more British than Nigerian so it was a heartbreaking that he had 'to go back' so I get it I really do. But the fact really does remain that if lo no skilled immigration is reduced then wage inflation will increase.... I'm all for that... But you know who is not.... the Torys

Ironically hes a Brit! Married a Bulgarian woman and decided it made sense. Yes he is in skilled work, and £400 a day is decent money - but the life he has out there is nothing like what he could have here, which was the point really. Even minimum wage and some child benefit here goes a hell of a long way out there. So its profitable for EU workers to come over and take up lo skilled work, especially as they have virtually no barriers to doing so.

Conversely with our non EU friends, I would suggest its nothing like as attractive....

Your Nigerian friend, just how wrong is that? Utterly shocking and indeed heartbreaking.

While idealogically the Tories might be against it, I suspect they are more interested in maintaining/gaining power and would make that change if it secured them support from the public. Which, it would appear, it would.

Either way, the point remains that having control of immigration does not necessarily mean cutting it off completely, or indefinitely.

 

[SpurMeUp]

So, if no "regulatory divergence" between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and with the DUP not accepting any agreement where the DUP is under different rules to the rest of the UK...does this then mean that the whole of the UK ends up staying in the single market and customs union?

What other way is there around that? I guess we are about to find out.

We laugh, but as we get further along this negotiation path that is going to be the conclusion! everyone from the hard Brexiteers to the EU will say, why is the UK bothering to leave and waste all that time and money when what it wants is free trade and to be in the customs union?

As we’ve been discussing, immigration has never been solely the EU, its been 50-50 with the rest of the world, and who gives a monkeys if the ECJ rules over some trade and human rights laws?

Total waste of time.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[DTA]

L
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Ironically hes a Brit! Married a Bulgarian woman and decided it made sense. Yes he is in skilled work, and £400 a day is decent money - but the life he has out there is nothing like what he could have here, which was the point really. Even minimum wage and some child benefit here goes a hell of a long way out there. So its profitable for EU workers to come over and take up lo skilled work, especially as they have virtually no barriers to doing so.

Conversely with our non EU friends, I would suggest its nothing like as attractive....

Your Nigerian friend, just how wrong is that? Utterly shocking and indeed heartbreaking.

While idealogically the Tories might be against it, I suspect they are more interested in maintaining/gaining power and would make that change if it secured them support from the public. Which, it would appear, it would.

Either way, the point remains that having control of immigration does not necessarily mean cutting it off completely, or indefinitely.

But if we are in the EU, and you earn as much or more than him you too could do what he is doing?

Another friend from India was working here earning about 130k a year. He had the right to stay, but negotiated with his company to take a pay cut (he earns around 90k a year now) and move back to India... because 90k there goes a lot firther than 130k here. this is the way the world is going irrespective of being in the eu or not.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I dont think its as binary as that. But I would wager it is weighted that way, considering the ease/difficulty of non EU/EU entry into the UK.

For example, it is very easy and profitable for an EU resident - particularly from the east - to come to the UK, work for minimum wage, and then go home a (relatively) wealthy man**.

Now try doing that coming from India...

Ill have a look later for numbers, but my bet is that a higher proportion of Non-EU immigrants are of a more skilled/qualified nature.


From what I have seen the majority of Brexiteers want immigration controlled. They want us to have the ability to decide who comes and who doesnt. And so, if need be, say "no" to people as/when we dont have the capacity or requirement for them.

Controlling numbers is a part of that, but it isnt the whole.


Personally I think the EU/Non-EU split is disgusting. On one hand I am against the lack of control we have over the EU side, on the other I am absolutely disgusted by the disparity in process/access based solely upon race.

Ive mentioned it before, Ive had Indian friends go through the process and it is horrific. All the while absolutely anyone from the EU can breeze in without a care. That disparity is awful and I personally am all in favour of making it fair. A more streamlined policy that applies to all would be "right" in my mind.

Roll into that the ability to attract people we need, encourage nurses for example, and even better.




**Its an extreme example, not the norm I know, but 400% true. Had a chap working here as a contractor. He commutes in from Bulgaria, stays in a Travellodge Mon-Thu and then flies home. He was on something like £400 a day, and was very keen to explain just how lavish his life was back home as a result. Lord of the manor type stuff, building an enormous house, pool, tennis courts, staff...

Just a technicality, EU and UK immigration laws have nothing to do with race. They are only concerned with nationality. I met some almost extinct Indian Jews in a place called Fort Cochin. While most immigrated to Israel - who are concerned with race - to the UK they would not have any different status to another Indian. Its seems like you want to be disgusted with the EU regardless.

 

[DTA]

I didn't miss the point. I just don't share your take on it. I won't repeat the points made by others but in general terms, just saying 'cut non-EU immigration if you're that bothered' hardly sounds like a sensible or viable approach. In any case, even with non-EU migration entirely eliminated (not in any way viable or desirable), net migration would still have been running significantly in excess of the government's famous 100k figure, 2013-2016 inclusive.

Bruv.... the fact that they had that 100k figure... yet still let in more non EU migration then they had to... What does that tell You?

 

[SpurMeUp]

What would be interesting is if @nayimfromthehalfwayline @Parklaner81 or anyone else, outlined what kind of immigration the UK should have if any, and if we have immigration, where these people should come from. Would it be like the Australian points model? Would that give a preference to highly educated people who get more points?

What kind of jobs does the UK need to fill? Are they the well educated positions, or more menial jobs? Post Brexit will the UK have lots of jobs, and be attractive? With the pound lower and the Brexit sign hanging over the UK are we as attractive?

 

[SpurMeUp]

It was always stupid to turn the border issue into a face-off between mighty Britain and little Ireland. But that’s how the hard Brexiters and their Tory press allies chose to construe it.

Having done so, they might now ask themselves: if, for the first time in 800 years, Ireland is proving to be in a much stronger political position than Britain, what does that say about what Brexit is doing to Britain’s strength? It is being forced to accept what it claimed to be unacceptable, not because Ireland has suddenly become a global superpower but because it has the unflinching support of EU member states, the European parliament, and the EU negotiating team. There might be a lesson in there somewhere for a country facing a future without the allies it has long taken for granted.

 

[DTA]

It was always stupid to turn the border issue into a face-off between mighty Britain and little Ireland. But that’s how the hard Brexiters and their Tory press allies chose to construe it.

Having done so, they might now ask themselves: if, for the first time in 800 years, Ireland is proving to be in a much stronger political position than Britain, what does that say about what Brexit is doing to Britain’s strength? It is being forced to accept what it claimed to be unacceptable, not because Ireland has suddenly become a global superpower but because it has the unflinching support of EU member states, the European parliament, and the EU negotiating team. There might be a lesson in there somewhere for a country facing a future without the allies it has long taken for granted.

Yeah but empire innit

 

[DTA]

So Brexitiers... If NI can remain part of the single market... then will you also accept Scotland... And more importantly to me at Least London being In the single market and customs union?

Liverpool and Manchester also voted to remain I believe amongst others.

Would this be ok with you guys?

If soo fill your boots with as much Brexit as you want.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

But if we are in the EU, and you earn as much or more than him you too could do what he is doing?

Another friend from India was working here earning about 130k a year. He had the right to stay, but negotiated with his company to take a pay cut (he earns around 90k a year now) and move back to India... because 90k there goes a lot firther than 130k here. this is the way the world is going irrespective of being in the eu or not.

I dont earn like him, but yes - I could move to Bulgaria and commute to the UK to live like a King, if I wanted to. Which I dont!

Just a technicality, EU and UK immigration laws have nothing to do with race. They are only concerned with nationality. I met some almost extinct Indian Jews in a place called Fort Cochin. While most immigrated to Israel - who are concerned with race - to the UK they would not have any different status to another Indian. Its seems like you want to be disgusted with the EU regardless.

Positive discrimination to europeans is still discrimination. Be that on race or nationality, an Indian will have a hellish time trying to achieve the same as an EU resident. That disparity is disgusting to me, regardless of semantics. I think it should be the same for all.

Considering how left most remainers are, so proudly socially aware and all about the common man etc - I find it funny this point doesnt stick better with them.

 

[Gutter Boy]

What would be interesting is if @nayimfromthehalfwayline @Parklaner81 or anyone else, outlined what kind of immigration the UK should have if any, and if we have immigration, where these people should come from. Would it be like the Australian points model? Would that give a preference to highly educated people who get more points?

What kind of jobs does the UK need to fill? Are they the well educated positions, or more menial jobs? Post Brexit will the UK have lots of jobs, and be attractive? With the pound lower and the Brexit sign hanging over the UK are we as attractive?

Points systems are no good, because they don't give you control either. They just set a threshold, and anyone about it can come in.

A work permit system would be much better. There employers sponsor people who they want to employ, making a case that there's no comparatively-skilled existing resident who could fill the post.

I would only do this for highly-skilled workers. Automisation will pick up everything else.

I'd be fairly liberal on spouse immigration (subject to micky-taking checks). Love love, hate global capitalism

 

[Gutter Boy]

So Brexitiers... If NI can remain part of the single market... then will you also accept Scotland... And more importantly to me at Least London being In the single market and customs union?

Liverpool and Manchester also voted to remain I believe amongst others.

Would this be ok with you guys?

If soo fill your boots with as much Brexit as you want.

Northern Ireland is different, because this is part of the endgame - the eventual transfer of the counties back to Ireland.

Scotland can, and hopefully will, vote for independence - and will then be able to apply to join the EU if they wish. As they will have to accept Schengen and the Eurozone (and a hard border with England and Wales), I suspect they won't go for it, but that will be for them to decide. I can see them joining Norway in the EEA though.

London's hubris is funny. They've screwed over the rest of the country for the last 25 years, monopolising all the power and investment. The rebalance sparked by Brexit will be quite a satisfying for the shires.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Positive discrimination to europeans is still discrimination. Be that on race or nationality, an Indian will have a hellish time trying to achieve the same as an EU resident. That disparity is disgusting to me, regardless of semantics. I think it should be the same for all.

Considering how left most remainers are, so proudly socially aware and all about the common man etc - I find it funny this point doesnt stick better with them.

You can be left and pragmatic - this is a fallacy of the right that any with socialist ideals working within the current framework is a traitor to the cause.

In an ideal world there will be equality for all, this is not an ideal world so you accept this situation and work within it. Those who support the EU see the value to long term growth, security and peace in the ideals of the EU, this can only happen if there are restrictions over who can utilize these rights. You open it up to all and you lose the benefits for all, a comparable argument is that you can not help homeless people in London because people are starving in Africa.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You can be left and pragmatic - this is a fallacy of the right that any with socialist ideals working within the current framework is a traitor to the cause.

In an ideal world there will be equality for all, this is not an ideal world so you accept this situation and work within it. Those who support the EU see the value to long term growth, security and peace in the ideals of the EU, this can only happen if there are restrictions over who can utilize these rights. You open it up to all and you lose the benefits for all, a comparable argument is that you can not help homeless people in London because people are starving in Africa.

I dont think thats comparable at all, unless your point is "them and us" in a "locals vs foreigners" kind of way?

The situation is changing. Why not take that as an opportunity to move toward a fairer and more ideal solution?

I think a streamlined, controlled, immigration policy that treats every body the same is the best solution. Particularly if it also affords us the ability to focus that immigration on areas that benefit the country the most.

Who can really argue against that?

And its something I feel strongly enough about that I would consider it worth leaving the EU for. Pragmatism? Or just different ideals?

 

[SpurMeUp]

I dont earn like him, but yes - I could move to Bulgaria and commute to the UK to live like a King, if I wanted to. Which I dont!



Positive discrimination to europeans is still discrimination. Be that on race or nationality, an Indian will have a hellish time trying to achieve the same as an EU resident. That disparity is disgusting to me, regardless of semantics. I think it should be the same for all.

Considering how left most remainers are, so proudly socially aware and all about the common man etc - I find it funny this point doesnt stick better with them.

Are you suggesting opening our boarders to Africa and India? Maybe I got it wrong, but I thought the gist of the Leave vote was to cut immigration not extend it outwards?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[SpurMeUp]

Points systems are no good, because they don't give you control either. They just set a threshold, and anyone about it can come in.

A work permit system would be much better. There employers sponsor people who they want to employ, making a case that there's no comparatively-skilled existing resident who could fill the post.

I would only do this for highly-skilled workers. Automisation will pick up everything else.

I'd be fairly liberal on spouse immigration (subject to micky-taking checks). Love love, hate global capitalism

That’s how it is now. So as we are, just ban the French, Germans, Romanians etc. Only allow work immigration for sponsor companies paying 35k plus.

Who will sweep the roads, serve sandwiches at pret and pick fruit?


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