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Politics, politics, politics

Parklaner81 said:
As regards future deals, as @nayimfromthehalfwayline has hinted, there's plenty of room for immigration in them if necessary. Just not of the open door, FoM variety. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.
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I support immigration for highly-skilled workers and spouses. And we shouldn't discriminate against non-whites, like currently happens.

We do though need to set a cap on the highly-skilled ones - at a level so net population doesn't increase (i.e. immigration matches or is slightly under the failing birthrate level). For me they are fair principles for the existing population and those wanting to come here.
 
r-u-s-x said:
Does the NI rumour indicate a hard customs /immigration boarder with NI to UK - otherwise it pretty much redundant isn't it? Not sure DUP will let that one fly.
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It's a no win situation for them though.

Bring May down, Corbyn's in by February and he's a lifelong campaigner for a United Ireland.

Work with this deal and the border poll happens when demographics create a Republican majority in the next 5-10 years anyway.

So at best (for them), they play ball and get 10 more years of being British.
 
Parklaner81 said:
No, not if I'm interpreting you correctly. Because that would have meant a complete and total shut down of non-EU immigration. A political non-starter.
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Oh sure, I'm just speaking hypothetically.

That would be an economic non-starter of course.

I'm just getting to the point we have and had immigration controls but have chosen not to use them. That can surely only be for goid reason: we need the people to work.

However it's been spun by Nige and his lot that this is all down to the EU.
 
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So, if no "regulatory divergence" between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and with the DUP not accepting any agreement where the DUP is under different rules to the rest of the UK...does this then mean that the whole of the UK ends up staying in the single market and customs union?

What other way is there around that? I guess we are about to find out.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
There are points between "Blanket immigration" and "no immigration". Seems foolish to argue as if there arent.

And as I understand it, the balance between non eu and eu immigration was damn near 50/50. So while technically its correct to say non-eu was higher, the way you are doing it mis represents the reality.
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Parklaner81 said:
Was just going to make the very same point. The point about non-EU immigration being higher gets thrown around regularly by remainers, but actually the differences are marginal.
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Both of you miss the point. Or maybe I didn' articulate it properly.

Let me try again. If net immigration is a problem and uk governments wanted to cut the amount of immigrants being allowed into this country, but were unable to curtail the amount of EU immigrants, because of pesky EU laws.
Then they could have seriously curtailed the amount of non EU immigration. Because they had the power to do so... but they chose not to. Why? Well there is a variety of factors why, but one of the main ones would be wage inflation..... which the Torys... And the red Torys... no like.... Just like Modric no like chicken badge.

To make it even simpler.... Say immigration from the EU was 100 (obviously not... But just to keep it in simple figures) people a year, and non EU immigration was 101 people a year.

So total immigration is 201 people a year.

Pesky EU means we can't do anything about the 100 people from the EU (we could have but Brexiters won' believe that... so let' just say we cant). But we can do something about the 101 non EU immigrants.... If the powers that be wanted to cut immigration then the 101 non EU immigrants would absolutely be able to be cut.... Why hasn't this happened? If immigration is the problem then why?

In conclusion if immigration was the problem... then it was a very simple fix to seriously reduce non EU immigration and therefore cut immigration from 201 a year to nearer the 100 that were 'forced on us by the EU' .... basically even after Brexit immigration won' come down.... maybe EU immigration will but total immigration won't unless we believe in @Gutter Boy degrowth strategies.... That no major party is pushing at all.

So even with immigration.... Brexiters were lying.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Non-EU immigration is generally either skilled workers or spouses, because they have to get work permits. FoM from the EU however gives big business the tools to drive unskilled immigration.

I think the non-EU number is also to do with students (wrongly) being included in immigration numbers. And nearly all foreign students in the UK are Chinese and American.
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You will have to back that up with statistics.
 
DTA said:
Both of you miss the point. Or maybe I didn' articulate it properly....
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I dont miss the point, I got it the first time. It is rank simplicity though, isnt it? So much so I dont even know that it qualifies as a "point".

The solution to the immigration issue is to actively discriminate on grounds of race? Really?

And as I said, and @Gutter Boy expanded - the type of person coming in is also important, not just the fact that there is a person coming in.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I dont miss the point, I got it the first time. It is rank simplicity though, isnt it? So much so I dont even know that it qualifies as a "point".

The solution to the immigration issue is to actively discriminate on grounds of race? Really?

And as I said, and @Gutter Boy expanded - the type of person coming in is also important, not just the fact that there is a person coming in.
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Ok what is the 'type' of person coming in? Do you think that all non EU immigration is high skilled and all EU Labour is no/low skilled?

As for discrimination on grounds of race... Ok I'm with you on that. But not sure the majority of Brexiters who are concerned about immigration would be happy about the same levels of immigration but just from further afield.
 
r-u-s-x said:
percentage of Non EU students that are Chinese / US
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So does the immigration figures from EU countries cover those that are studying as well? Any idea about those numbers?

I would guess (perhaps wrongly) that these would be higher than non EU students.
 
DTA said:
Ok what is the 'type' of person coming in? Do you think that all non EU immigration is high skilled and all EU Labour is no/low skilled?

As for discrimination on grounds of race... Ok I'm with you on that. But not sure the majority of Brexiters who are concerned about immigration would be happy about the same levels of immigration but just from further afield.
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I dont think its as binary as that. But I would wager it is weighted that way, considering the ease/difficulty of non EU/EU entry into the UK.

For example, it is very easy and profitable for an EU resident - particularly from the east - to come to the UK, work for minimum wage, and then go home a (relatively) wealthy man**.

Now try doing that coming from India...

Ill have a look later for numbers, but my bet is that a higher proportion of Non-EU immigrants are of a more skilled/qualified nature.


From what I have seen the majority of Brexiteers want immigration controlled. They want us to have the ability to decide who comes and who doesnt. And so, if need be, say "no" to people as/when we dont have the capacity or requirement for them.

Controlling numbers is a part of that, but it isnt the whole.


Personally I think the EU/Non-EU split is disgusting. On one hand I am against the lack of control we have over the EU side, on the other I am absolutely disgusted by the disparity in process/access based solely upon race.

Ive mentioned it before, Ive had Indian friends go through the process and it is horrific. All the while absolutely anyone from the EU can breeze in without a care. That disparity is awful and I personally am all in favour of making it fair. A more streamlined policy that applies to all would be "right" in my mind.

Roll into that the ability to attract people we need, encourage nurses for example, and even better.




**Its an extreme example, not the norm I know, but 100% true. Had a chap working here as a contractor. He commutes in from Bulgaria, stays in a Travellodge Mon-Thu and then flies home. He was on something like £400 a day, and was very keen to explain just how lavish his life was back home as a result. Lord of the manor type stuff, building an enormous house, pool, tennis courts, staff...
 
DTA said:
Both of you miss the point. Or maybe I didn' articulate it properly.
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I didn't miss the point. I just don't share your take on it. I won't repeat the points made by others but in general terms, just saying 'cut non-EU immigration if you're that bothered' hardly sounds like a sensible or viable approach. In any case, even with non-EU migration entirely eliminated (not in any way viable or desirable), net migration would still have been running significantly in excess of the government's famous 100k figure, 2013-2016 inclusive.
 
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r-u-s-x said:
its 40% https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/august2016

Nationality Study visa granted % of total
Total 204,859 400%
China 70,194 34%
United States 14,245 7%
India 10,664 5%
Malaysia 9,478 5%
Hong Kong 9,069 4%
Other non-EEA nationalities 91,209 45%
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There's these too:

Non-EU = 310,575
EU = 127,440

China 91,215
Malaysia 17,405
United States 17,115
India 16,745
Hong Kong 16,745
Nigeria 16,100
Germany 13,425
France 12,525
Italy 12,135
Ireland 10,245

https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/...--statistics/international-students-in-uk-he/
 
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