Politics, politics, politics

[DTA]

On the surface Marxism and Degrowth appear to be quite sensible: constantly looking for profit and financial advancement is unsustainable. With icecaps melting its not an ecological model to look for even more without regard to all else. Communism wanted us to focus less on material, degrowth for us to consumer less? Is that right?

The theory of both are fine. The issue is implementation. How could you impose this onto economies? How would it work? How could it possibly work in a planned imposed form? In lieu of a viable alternative, aren't the EUs air quality laws and environmental policies some of the most advanced the world has seen? From wikipedia:

The European Union (EU) is considered by some to have the most extensive environmental laws of any international organisation.[1] Its environmental policy is significantly intertwined with other international and national environmental policies. The environmental legislation of the European Union also has significant effects on those of its member states. The European Union’s environmental legislation addresses issues such as acid rain, the thinning of the ozone layer, air quality, noise pollution, waste and water pollution, and sustainable energy.


Has anyone donated to wiki?

Only because the system is designed so that you can be oppressed/held hostage by that.

With universal basic income, everyone gets fed and housed, and then can do something purposeful to fill their time.

Universal basic income, from a Tory Brexit? Are you even attempting to be serious? Dude who apart from you is talking about anything like what you suggest as a possible Brexit strategy?

Tell me so I can get behind that party.

 

[Gutter Boy]

On the surface Marxism and Degrowth appear to be quite sensible: constantly looking for profit and financial advancement is unsustainable. With icecaps melting its not an ecological model to look for even more without regard to all else. Communism wanted us to focus less on material, degrowth for us to consumer less? Is that right?

The theory of both are fine. The issue is implementation. How could you impose this onto economies? How would it work? How could it possibly work in a planned imposed form?

The first step is a compulsory maximum 4-day/28 hour working week. Later comes universal basic income and compulsory maximum 3-day/21 hour working weeks.

You also need legislation to penalise planned obsolesce, the transportation of goods and non-biodegradable packaging.

The provision of locally generated and locally stored renewable energy is key too. Stamp duty waivers/other tax breaks for houses with solar panels, windmills and battery storage etc. would incentivise this.

 

[the dza]

The driving force behind most of the money and most of the politicians who are pro-Brexit is far-right economics, the stuff of the wet dreams of Priti Patel et al.

They want regulations gone as much as is possible -- for the word 'regulations' you can sub in the word 'protections' be these for the worker, the citizen or environment in general. The reason a "no deal" Brexit looms large is because this is what they want.

There are some who are pro-Brexit on the left, but these people aren't the driver of Brexit nor are they in government. So the arrangements being made are going to be, in economic terms, far-right, if the drivers of Brexit get their way.

The only way to prevent this is to vote in a Labour government come the next General Election -- there is no alternative under our current electoral system. It's either the far right economics of Gove, Patel and the rest, or going back to the mixed economy of the post-war era (before Thatcher) under a Corbyn led Labour government. You can argue the pros and cons of each, but that is going to be the choice facing the electorate.

 

[Baleforce]

@Gutter Boy the changes you want to see are not trivial, your system requires evolution not revolution, it's not what comes next from Brexit

 

[Gutter Boy]

Universal basic income, from a Tory Brexit? Are you even attempting to be serious? Dude who apart from you is talking about anything like what you suggest as a possible Brexit strategy?

Tell me so I can get behind that party.

It's not about the Brexit process. It's about what we then do with those repatriated powers in 2022 and beyond.

The Greens had the 4 day working week in their last manifesto, plus an nod towards Universal Basic Income. They aren't really smart enough to grasp it properly though.

Otherwise the Five Star Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Star_Movement) in Italy have brought degrowth into mainstream politics, while the Swiss have had a recent referendum on Universal Basic Income (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060).

 

[Gutter Boy]

The driving force behind most of the money and most of the politicians who are pro-Brexit is far-right economics, the stuff of the wet dreams of Priti Patel et al.

They want regulations gone as much as is possible -- for the word 'regulations' you can sub in the word 'protections' be these for the worker, the citizen or environment in general. The reason a "no deal" Brexit looms large is because this is what they want.

There are some who are pro-Brexit on the left, but these people aren't the driver of Brexit nor are they in government. So the arrangements being made are going to be, in economic terms, far-right, if the drivers of Brexit get their way.

The only way to prevent this is to vote in a Labour government come the next General Election -- there is no alternative under our current electoral system. It's either the far right economics of Gove, Patel and the rest, or going back to the mixed economy of the post-war era (before Thatcher) under a Corbyn led Labour government. You can argue the pros and cons of each, but that is going to be the choice facing the electorate.

Corbyn and McDonnell have been drivers of Brexit for 30 years. There's lots of pro-Brexit on the left. They are just being ambiguous at the moment, because of their uneasy alliance with the north London metropolitan voters.

I don't think Corbyn will stand in the 2022 election - I think he may just be getting too old by then. But he will ensure an ideological heir is in place now he as gained control of the party apparatus.

 

[Gutter Boy]

@Gutter Boy the changes you want to see are not trivial, your system requires evolution not revolution, it's not what comes next from Brexit

I see Brexit as a second Reformation. I think it will spark enormous (positive) changes well beyond its original intentions. It's the first real blow against Late Capitalism.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Shall we have a back of a fag packet pop at estimating what Brexit will cost?

We now have an idea of the exit bill. We're not going to observe the European Court, so we need a Medicines Agency, Aviation Agency new Customs and Exercise agency, new Trade Ministry. Third - the big one - what will be the cost of lost investment, trade and jobs when the EU don't give the UK complete free trade?

1. £40-50b = circa £1000 per person in the UK. About the same as a Spurs season ticket.
2. £5b per year on new Government infrastructure and training to oversee things the EU used to? Has anyone made an estimate of this?
3. ?

If the UK wants free trade with the EU, why leave the customs union? Thus why would the EU give a complete free trade deal to the UK while we are outside the customs union? How much will we have to pay to get free or semi-free access? Once this is detailed we *should* have a better understanding of what Brexit costs in first line costs.

Just to stand still we'll need to consider funding farmers, underdeveloped areas, cultural programmes etc that the EU currently makes. Will there be anything much leftover if we leave? Sure it won't be 350m a week but if there is nothing back it will be a joke.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The customs union was never the issue, its what we signed up to in the first place.

Its the ever closer political union that has become the issue.

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's not about the Brexit process. It's about what we then do with those repatriated powers in 2022 and beyond.

The Greens had the 4 day working week in their last manifesto, plus an nod towards Universal Basic Income. They aren't really smart enough to grasp it properly though.

Otherwise the Five Star Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Star_Movement) in Italy have brought degrowth into mainstream politics, while the Swiss have had a recent referendum on Universal Basic Income (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060).

Why don't you just support the Green party? It seems to cover everything you believe in. Galeforce is right, you can't top down impose environmental evolution, it has to be incentivised across borders. Otherwise the UK will become even less competitive. Which cross-national structures have started to have success delivering pan national environmental laws?

I don't think anyone more so than the EU. Another myth busted.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The customs union was never the issue, its what we signed up to in the first place.

Its the ever closer political union that has become the issue.

What exactly is that? Its not really something I've experienced. In real terms where is this occurring and how has it affected you?

 

[the dza]

Corbyn and McDonnell have been drivers of Brexit for 30 years. There's lots of pro-Brexit on the left. They are just being ambiguous at the moment, because of their uneasy alliance with the north London metropolitan voters.

I don't think Corbyn will stand in the 2022 election - I think he may just be getting too old by then. But he will ensure an ideological heir is in place now he as gained control of the party apparatus.

I acknowledged that there are those on the left who want Brexit, but they are not the drivers because that's NOT where the money for the campaign comes from, it IS NOT where the bulk of political support comes (MPs) from and it IS NOT left-wing media moguls who have been agitating for it for the past three decades. The driving force behind it is far-right economics, my post still stands.

The general public voted for it for various reasons -- but those driving the campaign to leave all believe in far-right economics; minimise the role of the state and reduce protections and taxation for the benefit of the rich at the expense of wider society. And that will be the choice come the next general election.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Gutter Boy is not a Troll, he believes in what he says however it has the same effect on this conversation. He is speaking with certainty on a minority position that he knows will happen in two or three Governments time.

Its hard work because you end up focusing on things that are very unlikely rather than the cluster fudge that's happening before our eyes.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Why don't you just support the Green party? It seems to cover everything you believe in. Galeforce is right, you can't top down impose environmental evolution, it has to be incentivised across borders. Otherwise the UK will become even less competitive. Which cross-national structures have started to have success delivering pan national environmental laws and chances?

I find the UK Greens a bit thick and not really able to grasp the bigger picture. They focus on social restrictions (e.g. hostility to travel), rather than taking on the underlying causes - consumerism and economic slavery.

The way to achieve this is to stop competing. Have a planned economy. This is what is important that we can sustainably produce, this is what we need, and we trade where the two don't align. Growth and competitiveness is just a race to destroy the planet. Stepping off the treadmill and thinking about sustainability by shrinking the economy is the only viable future.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Gutter Boy is not a Troll, he believes in what he says however it has the same effect on this conversation. He is speaking with certainty on a minority position that he knows will happen in two or three Governments time.

Its hard work because you end up focusing on things that are very unlikely rather than the cluster fudge that's happening before our eyes.

Every revolution needs visions, even if the paradigm shift is usually a half-way compromise.

The Anabaptists and what they nearly achieved with the Munster Rebellion are particular heroes of mine

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Why don't you just support the Green party? It seems to cover everything you believe in. Galeforce is right, you can't top down impose environmental evolution, it has to be incentivised across borders. Otherwise the UK will become even less competitive. Which cross-national structures have started to have success delivering pan national environmental laws and chances?

I don't think anymore more than the EU. Another myth busted.

The Greens are crackers? Have you read their manifesto? I think 2015 was the last one I read, it was unicorns bricking rainbows all the way through.

Clearly written from the point of view that they knew they were never going to get elected...

What exactly is that? Its not really something I've experienced. In real terms where is this occurring and how has it affected you?

Directly Im not sure. Clearly its something of an abstract notion and if it does effect me Im sure its in a more indirect manner.

The point is, though, through the many many posts, PR, interviews etc - that that is the case.

People are happy to trade, more than happy to trade. They just dont like the whole forming superstate side of the EU. Something we never signed up to.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The Greens are crackers? Have you read their manifesto? I think 2015 was the last one I read, it was unicorns bricking rainbows all the way through.

Clearly written from the point of view that they knew they were never going to get elected...



Directly Im not sure. Clearly its something of an abstract notion and if it does effect me Im sure its in a more indirect manner.

The point is, though, through the many many posts, PR, interviews etc - that that is the case.

People are happy to trade, more than happy to trade. They just dont like the whole forming superstate side of the EU. Something we never signed up to.

An honest reply. The EU is of course a Customs Union. The other things it does facilitate this. For example, you need an arbiter of trade disputes that all countries in the union adhere to, hence the European Court. Now while the lines blur sometimes, and the EU gets involved in non-trade areas, when you look at it, none of it is harmful. Environmental laws is a good example. To ensure a dirty factory in Spain is not getting one over a complaint factory in the UK the EU have laws that will bind both, and so across a continent we improve air quality. Is that a bad thing? Well if you're multi-millionaire UKIP backer Aaron Banks and you want to setup some more dodgy insurance schemes and the EU won't have it, yes it is a bad thing. But for the real people, 9 times out of 10 the EU is pretty decent. Can you say that same about our own national governments?

There will always be Federalists, Fascists, Communists etc etc but the UK has a veto as do other EU countries. A Federal EU is never ever possible in the next 200 years. EU nations have distinct languages, cultures and histories, we couldn't wipe that out and Federalise Europe!? In fact the EU was born out of a reaction to Nazi ambitions to 'federalise' Europe, never should that occur again was the EU founders aim!

 

[r-u-s-x]

Every revolution needs visions, even if the paradigm shift is usually a half-way compromise.

The Anabaptists and what they nearly achieved with the Munster Rebellion are particular heroes of mine

Ok but your "solutions" are so unlikely in the short to medium term they are pretty much an irrelevance and derail a sensible conversation. I can provide the same insight by committing the UK to regaining the Empire and becoming a global superpower - its an option but not very likely.

Possibly best to start a new subject.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

An honest reply. The EU is of course a Customs Union. The other things it does facilitate this. For example, you need an arbiter of trade disputes that all countries in the union adhere to, hence the European Court. Now while the lines blur sometimes, and the EU gets involved in non-trade areas, when you look at it, none of it is harmful. Environmental laws is a good example. To ensure a dirty factory in Spain is not getting one over a complaint factory in the UK the EU have laws that will bind both, and so across a continent we improve air quality. Is that a bad thing? Well if you'er Aaron Banks and you want to run some dodgy insurance scheme and the EU won't have it, yes it is. But for the people, 9 times out of 10 the EU is pretty decent. Can you say that about our own national government?

There will always be Federalists, Fascists, Communists etc etc but the UK has a veto as do other EU countries. A Federal EU is never ever possible in the next 200 years. EU nations have distinct languages, cultures and histories, we couldn't wipe that out and Federalise Europe!? In fact the EU was born out of a reaction to Nazi ambitions to 'federalise' Europe, never should that occur again was the EU founders aim!

So what do you suppose "ever closer union" means then?

I dont claim to be an expert, but it would seem pretty clear the whole thing is about far more than trade.

 

[SpurMeUp]

So what do you suppose "ever closer union" means then?

I dont claim to be an expert, but it would seem pretty clear the whole thing is about far more than trade.

I genuinely don’t know. Continuing to work as partners as seamlessly as possible? Rather than slogans shouldn’t we focus on realities? The reality is no one is interested in a federal EU apart from a few nut jobs. But then you have then at all extremes. MEPs include fascists, Communists, even Nigel Farrage who was happy to take his £100k+ pa from the EU, scoff some wine and take the tinkle out of them trying to make positive changes.

Did he donate the €130k he was paid per year by the EU or just pocketed it?


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