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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
The greens have made driving in Brighton a fudging misery.
As the only place with a green MP though Lucas does not live in the town. 5 houses which cant be very green and not one in the town.
As the only place with a green MP though Lucas does not live in the town. 5 houses which cant be very green and not one in the town.
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
The core defining principle of the EU is free movement of goods.
The Treaty of Rome 1957 set out “The activities of the Community shall include . . . the elimination, as between Member States, of customs duties and of quantitative restrictions on the import and export of goods . . .; the abolition, as between Member States, of obstacles to freedom of movement for persons, services and capital.”
The 4 freedoms are? ...people, services, capital and goods?
So apart from people all things essential to a customs union; and if u need to help trade having people move freely makes sense.
So what is the EU? It’s based on 4 freedoms which are heavily trade based.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
The Treaty of Rome 1957 set out “The activities of the Community shall include . . . the elimination, as between Member States, of customs duties and of quantitative restrictions on the import and export of goods . . .; the abolition, as between Member States, of obstacles to freedom of movement for persons, services and capital.”
The 4 freedoms are? ...people, services, capital and goods?
So apart from people all things essential to a customs union; and if u need to help trade having people move freely makes sense.
So what is the EU? It’s based on 4 freedoms which are heavily trade based.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
- "Economic AND Political union" = more than trade partners.
political
pəˈlɪtɪk(ə)l/
adjective
- 1.
relating to the government or public affairs of a country.
- EU can make binding laws.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
What did you make of the Lisbon Treaty?
Incidentally, Ive never understood the freedom of movement angle. Why it is enforced, rather than encouraged.
That is another key thing that separates the EU from being just a trading bloc and something else.
Fine, so open up the borders and trade with the rest of the world. Or is it about more than trade?
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
Like America does? Not. The US protects it own. The EU does the same. Every country who can, does the same. The EU is a Customs Union at its core. Can we agree that? Of course it gets more complex and there are other things blurred into it, but at its core, that's what it is. Read the Treaty of Rome.
Suppose you open the EU to complete free trade. The factories that spend money on clean air now have to compete with dirty factories who pollute outside the EU. Would you want that? Or would you like to import chlorinated chicken or hormone feed beef?
There is a lack of knowledge about what the EU actually does.
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
Remember the EU was western Europe initially. Free movement was never a problem. It facilitates trade, and how could you have a free market, but restrict people from moving about in it? Buy and sell things as you wish but you can’t go and look at them without a visa...The only reason free movement became an issue was when the EU was enlarged (the UK wanted this when others didn't). All EU nations had the opportunity to opt out of free movement when the new countries came in. We didn't opt out.
I've never given the Lisbon Treaty any thought. Never read it. But its gonads. Its bureaucracy that allows the EU to function, thats what I can surmise from this link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6901353.stm The Commission is about the same size as Birmingham council. It has some of the smartest people from all over the Continent. Despite what we've read in the papers over the last decades, most of its work is dull, and effective (hence not being news worthy). What do you make of the Treaty? Has it effected you?
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Parklaner81
Jose Dominguez
Fair enough, but to follow the lines of your argument, the overall effect actually should be fairly neutral; interest rates were cut as a direct result of the brexit vote to 0.25%. If we accept your assertion that the recent increase was largely or exclusively also due to the brexit vote (the point we've disagreed on), that still only brings rates back to where they were before the vote: 0.5%.
I know we could both probably find individual examples of very small movements either way, which may include your personal situation but in general terms, mortgage payments should not in fact have increased from where they were pre-vote.
I'm not sure what you mean by that comment. I mean, I'm sure you understand the concept of the passage of time - events have happened that have superseded that treaty.
The EU is a protectionist state that masks itself as a customs union. You could describe the UK post-brexit as a customs union - it doesn't mean anything. Trading without barriers is the natural state, being that isn't doing anything. Adding caveats on top of the natural state (such as the EU's customs borders) are what define you.
Let consumers decide. I'm perfectly happy for everyone to have to compete.
There is an assumption amongst smug Grauniad readers that there is a lack of knowledge about what the EU actually does.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I think it was pushed in through the back door when an EU constitution wasnt accepted, and by your own link:
How similar is Lisbon to the draft constitution?
It contains many of the changes the constitution attempted to introduce
Things like this naturally make people suspicious. Why the need for political manouvreing? Why the need for a constitution? If it was just customs, it would be just business wouldnt it? It had far exceeded those parameters.
How similar is Lisbon to the draft constitution?
It contains many of the changes the constitution attempted to introduce
Things like this naturally make people suspicious. Why the need for political manouvreing? Why the need for a constitution? If it was just customs, it would be just business wouldnt it? It had far exceeded those parameters.
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
Would you call America a protectionist state?
Would you agree that a customs union is liberating from the inside and protectionist from the outside?
Where is this 'natural state' of free trade? Which large countries on this planet have this setup?
Would people 'choose' a non-hormone burger at McDonnalds or would they appreciate it being sorted for them?
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
What exactly has been introduced? Has your freedom been impaired? Lets talk about realities not emotions.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
As I said, realities are largely indirect, aren they?
And there is nothing wrong with pointing out why people take issue. And also pointing out the state is more than the trade union you are selling it as.
Yes. Anyone who tries to prop up internal industries that should be failing are.
Protectionist from the outside, yes. What it actually does internally is massively increase input costs.
Free trade is what happens until someone decides to put something in the way of it. Everyone outside the EU is trending towards a zero tariff setup, so should we.
They can choose to go to Burger King, or Douchey McDouchebag's vegan, lactose free, gluten free, hipster clamfest in Islington, or wherever the fudge else they want to go.
Parklaner81
Jose Dominguez
My point was that general expectations here, both before and after the brexit vote as best as I recall, have been of a medium-term 'normalisation' of interest rates. They were and are likely to rise. I don't think that in any way represents an unreasonable position.
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
I'm all for pointing out and exploring why people take issue. Hopefully you can use some real life examples so we can. Realities are far too 'indirect' in this discussion. Lets talk real life examples of how the EU affects people. We need to look closely and exactingly at what the EU does and does not do. How else can we look at this issue with any objectivity?
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
So the US and everyone else is by "protectionist" but the EU shouldn't be?
Which large nations are trending to a zero tariff setup? Do you mean Singapore?
Re. the Burgers essentially you're saying that if you have the money and the knowledge, you might be able to avoid the chlorine and hormones? Why not just keep them out? Or with air pollutants from factories, who's going to monitor a factory in China before they buy any given commodity? Absurd. We need regulation to control pollution. That must be clear. The EU does well with that.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
So is it a trade bloc only, or not? You seem to be moving the goalposts around.
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
I think I said in its essence - at its heart its a trade block? The reality has shades of grey, because you have to have trading laws, people to make them, to oversee them, and the EU covers things like pollution too which isn't directly about trade. Rather than focus in on definitions, is there anything that the EU does that you don't like or affects you adversely? Or conversely, do you appreciate any of the things it does? Like cut EU air pollution for example, allow cheap travel, or free phone calls...?