Politics, politics, politics

[Gutter Boy]

Meanwhile May wants to pass a bill to ensure Brexit happens on time...will the UK have what’s needed in place in time!?

I really don’t envy the current Government and Ministers. They have a Herculean task without a strong mandate. How can they deliver something better for the uk as promised? No good saying ‘we are just delivering Brexit’. They need to deliver a UK that’s better out than in.

We need a new Customs Ministry, new Trade experts, new regulators for Ari Travel, Medicine etc etc what will be their cost and how long will they take to be up and running? We need a new border system and customs in Ireland. We need to have our legal systems ready for he transition, will EU rulings still stand post Brexit? Or will they need to be retested in a UK court? We need to ensure industry has labour to function short term: people to pick fruit etc. We need to ensure farmers have a workable system post EU Common Agriculture Policy. And no doubt a tonne of other things too even before we venture out to try and setup trade deals with non-eu nations.

Furthermore the access to the single market negotiations will result in some loss to UK trade. We may get some trade opportunities that will take years to realise outside the EU. Or we might get worse non-Eu trade deals because we only bring 50m consumers to the table.

In the meantime our Single Market position has to suffer in one form or another: payments to access the single market that are worse than now/ loss of UK regulatory control so we can’t input into the terms of global trade anymore / or the introduction of tariffs on imports and exports. WTO tariffs would kill the car industry overnight. Possibly derail UK financial services too. And I should imagine would raise costs of anything imported from the EU: food etc. But maybe we will trade with Russia instead.

What happens if we don’t have an EU trade deal in place by the Brexit date? What if the only deal on the table is crap for the UK, what do we do? About 43% of our exports of goods and services go to the EU.

If May can even make Brexit happen she will be deserving of a medal. The task in of its self is gigantic. Regardless of the merits or otherwise of Brexit, logistically, it will be a miracle if May pulls it off and it’s not a big belly flop.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I think the biggest thing the government are lacking is someone to convey hope and vision - a charismatic leader.

The rest is all manageable - it's just bringing back in house the things all countries do, but we foolishly contracted out 25 years ago.

May is cautious because Clarke and Soubry only need a couple of allies to torpedo it. While Corbyn I believe has an ambitious Brexit vision, but can't convey it at the moment because his metropolitan south-east supporters would abandon him for the Lib Dems

 

[Scoopage]

Related to one of the worst class traitors of all time in British politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phili...hancellor_of_the_Exchequer:_1929.E2.80.931931
This fella? He seems like a fairly decent politician from that wiki

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phili...hancellor_of_the_Exchequer:_1929.E2.80.931931
This fella? He seems like a fairly decent politician from that wiki

Went over to the Tories didn't he. Along with that other cnut Ramsay MacDonald, cnuts the both of them. A weak prick who advocated orthodox austerity economic policies that made the depression worse for millions of workers in this country. A class traitor.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@Gilzeantoscore I actually have some respect for politicians that are not wed to one ideology or party. Politics shouldn't be like football. Of course its very tribal never the less, and we probably vote for who our parents voted for. But there needs to be more cross-party initiatives in politics. The countries with the most successful education systems collectively decided that education was too important to play party politics with, and education policy is directed cross-party. Politicians can still critique but they have direction and make positive long lasting improvements.

Two things on Brexit:

A huge conflict may be brewing in the Middle East. This time, it is not about Iraq, Syria or Israel and Palestine. It is about the rivalry between Saudi Arabia and Iran, the region’s leading Sunni and Shia Muslim powers, and it could potentially suck in all the above countries, plus Russia and the US. The Trump administration has sent senior envoys to Riyadh and other capitals. Moscow is deeply involved. Last week, Emmanuel Macron made an urgent visit to Saudi Arabia. The French president, speaking for Europe, stressed the need for stability after Lebanon’s prime minister, Saad Hariri, precipitously resigned.

At this possibly critical turning point, where is Britain? The shameful answer is, nowhere to be seen. What is the UK, with its long experience of Middle Eastern affairs, doing to defuse this dangerous crisis or protect British interests and citizens? Not a lot. Instead, our incompetent foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, is busy losing a personal battle with Iran over his gross mishandling of the case of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, the British-Iranian woman jailed in Tehran on fabricated charges. Johnson is not a serious person. He lacks the sense of responsibility and gravitas required for his job. Theresa May picked him because, after the Brexit referendum, she could not refuse him a senior post. He has repeatedly proved himself unworthy of the honour. May should show some teeth – and sack him.

The Johnson embarrassment, while acute, is but one of many unfortunate by-products of Britain’s biggest problem: Brexit. Divisive internal wrangling and endless navel gazing over Brexit are overshadowing almost everything in political life, to the detriment not only of Britain’s economic prospects and social cohesion but also its standing and influence in the world. May and her Crazy Gang cabinet appear not to grasp the dismaying extent to which the UK’s views are now dismissed, ignored and ridiculed on the international stage. It is not just inside the EU that bemusement, contempt and pity reign.

It's moany, and obviously Remain biased but also holds water on most points made. Article continues here https://www.theguardian.com/comment...iew-on-britains-shambolic-brexit-negotiations


The UK needs to pull something positive from the Brexit mess. We need leaders who are able to articulate the realities of Brexit, recognise the core issues for many that voted, and outline a path that makes sense for the UK. One that recognises the themes of the Leave vote and sets out to achieve them from within the EU customs Union.

The costs of Brexit are starting to accrue, but we won't feel them fully until we leave. There is time to isolate the real issues and address them, without damaging our nation. Those doubting the effects of Brexit, need only look at the UKs growth rates and the value of our currency, which have dropped significantly as a result of the vote. Whats amazing is how May keeps going, doubling down on a losing bet, when everything around her is in disarray. Make no mistake the UK is currently being downgraded by this wasteful process. But it is reversible. If it can be done before the UK becomes a Tory tax haven - which is the only Brexit 'positive' I can see from us moving away from free trade - then it needs to happen fast.


"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy." Ironically David Davies (2012) may have the answer.

 

[Parklaner81]

I actually have some respect for politicians that are not wed to one ideology or party. Politics shouldn't be like football. Of course its very tribal never the less, and we probably vote for who our parents voted for. But there needs to be more cross-party initiatives in politics. The countries with the most successful education systems collectively decided that education was too important to play party politics with, and education policy is directed cross-party. Politicians can still critique but they have direction and make positive long lasting improvements.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

@Gilzeantoscore I actually have some respect for politicians that are not wed to one ideology or party. Politics shouldn't be like football. Of course its very tribal never the less, and we probably vote for who our parents voted for. But there needs to be more cross-party initiatives in politics. The countries with the most successful education systems collectively decided that education was too important to play party politics with, and education policy is directed cross-party. Politicians can still critique but they have direction and make positive long lasting improvements.

Two things on Brexit:

A huge conflict may be brewing in the Middle East. This time, it is not about Iraq, Syria or Israel and Palestine. It is about the rivalry between Saudi Arabia and Iran, the region’s leading Sunni and Shia Muslim powers, and it could potentially suck in all the above countries, plus Russia and the US. The Trump administration has sent senior envoys to Riyadh and other capitals. Moscow is deeply involved. Last week, Emmanuel Macron made an urgent visit to Saudi Arabia. The French president, speaking for Europe, stressed the need for stability after Lebanon’s prime minister, Saad Hariri, precipitously resigned.

Who said it had anything to do with football, or tribalism? I like my politicians to be sincere and to BELIEVE in things. What I cannot stand are weakling trimmers, who constantly change their minds when things get tough. He betray

At this possibly critical turning point, where is Britain? The shameful answer is, nowhere to be seen. What is the UK, with its long experience of Middle Eastern affairs, doing to defuse this dangerous crisis or protect British interests and citizens? Not a lot. Instead, our incompetent foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, is busy losing a personal battle with Iran over his gross mishandling of the case of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, the British-Iranian woman jailed in Tehran on fabricated charges. Johnson is not a serious person. He lacks the sense of responsibility and gravitas required for his job. Theresa May picked him because, after the Brexit referendum, she could not refuse him a senior post. He has repeatedly proved himself unworthy of the honour. May should show some teeth – and sack him.

The Johnson embarrassment, while acute, is but one of many unfortunate by-products of Britain’s biggest problem: Brexit. Divisive internal wrangling and endless navel gazing over Brexit are overshadowing almost everything in political life, to the detriment not only of Britain’s economic prospects and social cohesion but also its standing and influence in the world. May and her Crazy Gang cabinet appear not to grasp the dismaying extent to which the UK’s views are now dismissed, ignored and ridiculed on the international stage. It is not just inside the EU that bemusement, contempt and pity reign.

It's moany, and obviously Remain biased but also holds water on most points made. Article continues here https://www.theguardian.com/comment...iew-on-britains-shambolic-brexit-negotiations


The UK needs to pull something positive from the Brexit mess. We need leaders who are able to articulate the realities of Brexit, recognise the core issues for many that voted, and outline a path that makes sense for the UK. One that recognises the themes of the Leave vote and sets out to achieve them from within the EU customs Union.

The costs of Brexit are starting to accrue, but we won't feel them fully until we leave. There is time to isolate the real issues and address them, without damaging our nation. Those doubting the effects of Brexit, need only look at the UKs growth rates and the value of our currency, which have dropped significantly as a result of the vote. Whats amazing is how May keeps going, doubling down on a losing bet, when everything around her is in disarray. Make no mistake the UK is currently being downgraded by this wasteful process. But it is reversible. If it can be done before the UK becomes a Tory tax haven - which is the only Brexit 'positive' I can see from us moving away from free trade - then it needs to happen fast.


"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy." Ironically David Davies (2012) may have the answer.

@Gilzeantoscore I actually have some respect for politicians that are not wed to one ideology or party. Politics shouldn't be like football. Of course its very tribal never the less, and we probably vote for who our parents voted for. But there needs to be more cross-party initiatives in politics. The countries with the most successful education systems collectively decided that education was too important to play party politics with, and education policy is directed cross-party. Politicians can still critique but they have direction and make positive long lasting improvements.

Two things on Brexit:

A huge conflict may be brewing in the Middle East. This time, it is not about Iraq, Syria or Israel and Palestine. It is about the rivalry between Saudi Arabia and Iran, the region’s leading Sunni and Shia Muslim powers, and it could potentially suck in all the above countries, plus Russia and the US. The Trump administration has sent senior envoys to Riyadh and other capitals. Moscow is deeply involved. Last week, Emmanuel Macron made an urgent visit to Saudi Arabia. The French president, speaking for Europe, stressed the need for stability after Lebanon’s prime minister, Saad Hariri, precipitously resigned.

At this possibly critical turning point, where is Britain? The shameful answer is, nowhere to be seen. What is the UK, with its long experience of Middle Eastern affairs, doing to defuse this dangerous crisis or protect British interests and citizens? Not a lot. Instead, our incompetent foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, is busy losing a personal battle with Iran over his gross mishandling of the case of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, the British-Iranian woman jailed in Tehran on fabricated charges. Johnson is not a serious person. He lacks the sense of responsibility and gravitas required for his job. Theresa May picked him because, after the Brexit referendum, she could not refuse him a senior post. He has repeatedly proved himself unworthy of the honour. May should show some teeth – and sack him.

The Johnson embarrassment, while acute, is but one of many unfortunate by-products of Britain’s biggest problem: Brexit. Divisive internal wrangling and endless navel gazing over Brexit are overshadowing almost everything in political life, to the detriment not only of Britain’s economic prospects and social cohesion but also its standing and influence in the world. May and her Crazy Gang cabinet appear not to grasp the dismaying extent to which the UK’s views are now dismissed, ignored and ridiculed on the international stage. It is not just inside the EU that bemusement, contempt and pity reign.

It's moany, and obviously Remain biased but also holds water on most points made. Article continues here https://www.theguardian.com/comment...iew-on-britains-shambolic-brexit-negotiations


The UK needs to pull something positive from the Brexit mess. We need leaders who are able to articulate the realities of Brexit, recognise the core issues for many that voted, and outline a path that makes sense for the UK. One that recognises the themes of the Leave vote and sets out to achieve them from within the EU customs Union.

The costs of Brexit are starting to accrue, but we won't feel them fully until we leave. There is time to isolate the real issues and address them, without damaging our nation. Those doubting the effects of Brexit, need only look at the UKs growth rates and the value of our currency, which have dropped significantly as a result of the vote. Whats amazing is how May keeps going, doubling down on a losing bet, when everything around her is in disarray. Make no mistake the UK is currently being downgraded by this wasteful process. But it is reversible. If it can be done before the UK becomes a Tory tax haven - which is the only Brexit 'positive' I can see from us moving away from free trade - then it needs to happen fast.


"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy." Ironically David Davies (2012) may have the answer.

What does tribalism have to do with it, that is really a super dooper straw man? I like politicians who have a well established world view, who have a sincere set of beliefs and who stick to them. What I don't like are trimmers and weak minded pragmatists, who bail out on their people, like this maggot. Millions of workers paid the price for his betrayal. They wanted what was on the side of the tin, not what the establishment of the city wanted. tinkle weak he was!

 

[SpurMeUp]

What does tribalism have to do with it, that is really a super dooper straw man? I like politicians who have a well established world view, who have a sincere set of beliefs and who stick to them. What I don't like are trimmers and weak minded pragmatists, who bail out on their people, like this maggot. Millions of workers paid the price for his betrayal. They wanted what was on the side of the tin, not what the establishment of the city wanted. tinkle weak he was!

It’s an interesting one. Having ideology and a core philosophy is important, I’d agree. But if it gets in the way of being pragmatic, it becomes a hindrance. Ultimately, historically, you have to accept that there is good and bad whatever the colour. And we should learn from that irrespective of ideology. That said I know nothing about this guy who was from a different time.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

@Gilzeantoscore I actually have some respect for politicians that are not wed to one ideology or party. Politics shouldn't be like football. Of course its very tribal never the less, and we probably vote for who our parents voted for. But there needs to be more cross-party initiatives in politics. The countries with the most successful education systems collectively decided that education was too important to play party politics with, and education policy is directed cross-party. Politicians can still critique but they have direction and make positive long lasting improvements.

I know itll never happen, and I know its completely impractical, but I would just love it if we could vote on individual policy, rather than party.

If each party put forward a policy on economy, environment, education... and under each area we voted for different party propositions.

I have no affinity with any party, and would love the choice. The last election there were elements of multiple manifesto I liked, wouldnt it be amazing to cherry pick the good bits?!

What does tribalism have to do with it, that is really a super dooper straw man? I like politicians who have a well established world view, who have a sincere set of beliefs and who stick to them. What I don't like are trimmers and weak minded pragmatists, who bail out on their people, like this maggot. Millions of workers paid the price for his betrayal. They wanted what was on the side of the tin, not what the establishment of the city wanted. tinkle weak he was!

Politics is like religion. For many at least. People are extremely dogmatic, and believe their chosen dogma is the right one.

Just read through this thread, its all there.

Might not apply to you, but certainly does to many. Its a big part of why nothing really changes, IMO. People are so busy pushing "their side" against "the other" they forget the whole point of it all.

Politics has shifted, since Blair in my eyes, from "heres why we are the ones you should vote for (present policies)" to "You cant vote for them because they are the bad guys! (PR)". The whole thing has turned into an xfactor type competition and its shameful.

Worse than that though the fans (voters) seem to have just fallen into the same roles. Posters here spend more time attacking each others party than they do discussing the actual points.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I know itll never happen, and I know its completely impractical, but I would just love it if we could vote on individual policy, rather than party.

If each party put forward a policy on economy, environment, education... and under each area we voted for different party propositions.

I have no affinity with any party, and would love the choice. The last election there were elements of multiple manifesto I liked, wouldnt it be amazing to cherry pick the good bits?!




Politics is like religion. For many at least. People are extremely dogmatic, and believe their chosen dogma is the right one.

Just read through this thread, its all there.

Might not apply to you, but certainly does to many. Its a big part of why nothing really changes, IMO. People are so busy pushing "their side" against "the other" they forget the whole point of it all.

Politics has shifted, since Blair in my eyes, from "heres why we are the ones you should vote for (present policies)" to "You cant vote for them because they are the bad guys! (PR)". The whole thing has turned into an xfactor type competition and its shameful.

Worse than that though the fans (voters) seem to have just fallen into the same roles. Posters here spend more time attacking each others party than they do discussing the actual points.

I think it's pretty clear that there is no third way. Proponents of this are always free marketeer neo liberals by another name. You can have a mixed economy, with a strong public sector, or you can have a so called 'free market.' there is no middle ground, despite what some spivs and shonks might promote to the contrary. I support traditional labour, because their core beliefs, such as the NHS, public education and state control of assets represents my ideological view. If they stopped promoting these concerns, then I would vote for another group.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I think it's pretty clear that there is no third way. Proponents of this are always free marketeer neo liberals by another name. You can have a mixed economy, with a strong public sector, or you can have a so called 'free market.' there is no middle ground, despite what some spivs and shonks might promote to the contrary. I support traditional labour, because their core beliefs, such as the NHS, public education and state control of assets represents my ideological view. If they stopped promoting these concerns, then I would vote for another group.

This is the third way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrowth. Both capitalism and socialism are fundamentally flawed and have failed.

Late Capitalism is absolutely comical now. The whole - you can't even buy stuff anymore because you might not buy another one soon enough, so we'll make you rent stuff instead, to keep our profits continuous - is ridiculous.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

This is the third way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrowth. Both capitalism and socialism are fundamentally flawed and have failed.

Late Capitalism is absolutely comical now. The whole - you can't even buy stuff anymore because you might not buy another one soon enough, so we'll make you rent stuff instead, to keep our profits continuous - is ridiculous.

You can have de growth and socialism, the two are in no way mutually exclusive, whereas capitalism, due to the constant pursuit of profit is.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You can have de growth and socialism, the two are in no way mutually exclusive, whereas capitalism, due to the constant pursuit of profit is.

Yet the constant pursuit of profit keeps an economy efficient. And capitalism is the most natural and aligned with human nature.

There is a third way, why can’t you have free market capitalism that is controlled? Capitalism with strong state control and state investment in socialist principles? Marx always thought Communism would evolve out of the higher stages of capitalism.

Degrowth, socialism along communist lines that we saw last century, leave people without choice and without freedom. With empty shops and one pair of jeans on the shelves. On the otherhand if Communism had allowed entrepreneurs and encouraged more free trade, it might have succeeded. Companies like John Lewis are proof that socialism can work within capitalism.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Kandi1977]

Please sign up to this petition!

Dear President Mauricio Macri and leaders of the G20,

The level of global inequality is appalling -- 8 people own as much wealth as half the planet.

And the gap is growing, thanks in part to the shadowy world of tax havens which lets trillions be syphoned offshore from our economies. Right now, the rich get richer, and the rest of us pay.

Eight years ago the G20 agreed it would shut down these practices. It's time to deliver. We call on you to act immediately to end tax havens and ensure that those that run and exploit them are held to account.

Nobody should be able to evade their duty to pay tax for the public good. It is your responsibility to make that so. As citizens from around the world, we demand action.
https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/paradise_papers_rb1/?aaPASib

 

[Gutter Boy]

You can have de growth and socialism, the two are in no way mutually exclusive, whereas capitalism, due to the constant pursuit of profit is.

Socialism, at least in this country, never seems to get past the idea that work/production/consumption is good and desirable. It's a capitalist engine, owned by the workers.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Yet the constant pursuit of profit keeps an economy efficient. And capitalism is the most natural and aligned with human nature.

There is a third way, why can’t you have free market capitalism that is controlled? Capitalism with strong state control and state investment in socialist principles? Marx always thought Communism would evolve out of the higher stages of capitalism.

Degrowth, socialism along communist lines that we saw last century, leave people without choice and without freedom. With empty shops and one pair of jeans on the shelves. On the otherhand if Communism had allowed entrepreneurs and encouraged more free trade, it might have succeeded. Companies like John Lewis are proof that socialism can work within capitalism.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Isn't your third way Keynesianism? Like we had here between 1945 and 1977?

You still have incentives in degrowth. It's universal basic income. The key there is basic. So you do minimal work and you live fine. You do valuable (for society) top-up work, and you get rewards too. Empty shops is kind of desirable in degrowth, because it's encouraging less production and more localism.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Isn't your third way Keynesianism? Like we had here between 1945 and 1977?

You still have incentives in degrowth. It's universal basic income. The key there is basic. So you do minimal work and you live fine. You do valuable (for society) top-up work, and you get rewards too. Empty shops is kind of desirable in degrowth, because it's encouraging less production and more localism.

I've never studied economics, but wasn't Keynes thing that governments offset economic downturns with central banks, interests rates etc? If so that's not what I'm suggesting. I would suggest some state ownership, investment into genuine social activities - see Cuba's provision of sports clubs, music centers, life long language classes, even daily aerobics classes for OAPs - and develop a strong national ethic to build a responsible interactive nation. Greater controls of the press might also be considered. You still need freedom in the economy, but could offer nurses and teachers free travel on the state transport systems etc

Why couldn't you have free economics and state socialism?

I would also throw in lean government into the mix just to really confuse things. Too much of our money is spent on government waste.

 

[scaramanga]

Please sign up to this petition!

Dear President Mauricio Macri and leaders of the G20,

The level of global inequality is appalling -- 8 people own as much wealth as half the planet.

And the gap is growing, thanks in part to the shadowy world of tax havens which lets trillions be syphoned offshore from our economies. Right now, the rich get richer, and the rest of us pay.

Eight years ago the G20 agreed it would shut down these practices. It's time to deliver. We call on you to act immediately to end tax havens and ensure that those that run and exploit them are held to account.

Nobody should be able to evade their duty to pay tax for the public good. It is your responsibility to make that so. As citizens from around the world, we demand action.
https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/paradise_papers_rb1/?aaPASib

They're not evading, they're avoiding.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I think it's pretty clear that there is no third way. Proponents of this are always free marketeer neo liberals by another name. You can have a mixed economy, with a strong public sector, or you can have a so called 'free market.' there is no middle ground, despite what some spivs and shonks might promote to the contrary. I support traditional labour, because their core beliefs, such as the NHS, public education and state control of assets represents my ideological view. If they stopped promoting these concerns, then I would vote for another group.

I agree it is why I am so proud of me a generally right wing person voting for Corbyn next time because despite reservations about his financial policies and not to happy at how that party treat the Jews, I want a fairer country and he is the best chance of offering it for me.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

Was the only option.

 

[Kandi1977]

They're not evading, they're avoiding.

I would guess that most of those at the G20 meeting have their money in tax havens.