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Politics, politics, politics

The UK has had years of newspaper stories about the EU. The print media made a discovery, while articles about trade deals were dull, Jonny foreigner dictating the shape of our bananas, appealed to our natural human, mild xenophobia and were funny and entertaining. The real work of the EU is seriously boring (work that the UK will now have to do creating a big Customs Department, a Trade Department, Medical, Aviation Regulator etc and did you know the EU bureaucracy is the size of Birmingham council?) But all of these bodies help facilitate trade and international cooperation. ...yet as you say, reality is not always important in a democratic vote. Its all about perceptions and how you get your message across (Leave were illegally funded by Trumps money man helping to get a their desired message out). Maybe the reason Remainers feel so upset at UKIP publishing images of lines of Turkish immigrants or the cash for the NHS claim is a) that it worked and b) if you look into it there is only a tenuous link to the the real work of the EU. But that work is not interesting, and never will be. How could Cameron or whoever was up there present the grey EU successfully, when faced with clever, well researched, emotive images of immigrants and hospitals?

I think this is fundamentally the issue with modern politics. I actually like detail, I l ike facts, and I like to make informed decisions.

I was begging for some of that during the referendum. People are fed flimflam and kept in the dark. They really shouldnt be.

I found those images offensive. And not because they were by they nature, but because it was a blatant "You fudging fools" up middle finger to the public they were served to.

For me, some common sense, some straight and factual talk, would have cut through all of the hogwash being pushed from all sides. Nobody even tried.

People dont know what the EU is? What it does? fudging tell them! Then they can make a proper decision. Cameron failed spectacularly there. And he wasn the only one.


You seem to have issue with us setting up our own Customs department, Im not sure why. I look at it as a necessity, rather than a burden, not sure what the big deal is. If we are to be independent of course we need such things. Is it a problem to have one?


The irony is, as with you, the EU doesn't adversely affect many people in the UK. Leaving the EU might though. Another irony is that Remoaners have been labelled with project fear, but there is a fear or distrust among Leavers of the foreign 'other', The foreign EU controlling things. Yet the EU conducts its works in our language, has many Brits working in it from all sides of the political spectrum, and things like the EU working time directive or laws on polluting etc, probably do protect most people in the UK.

This is where its back to principal. It doesnt matter to many if what you say is entirely correct, it matters that what we are involved in is not what we signed up to. It matters when huge mandate changes are essentially put through via the back door. It matters when when votes are re done until the desired result is found. That sort of thing sows distrust in an organisation that is already a different entity to that which we joined.

And, honestly, is that unfair?

How you weigh that against the good that comes from the EU is of course another matter and personal preference.

And I do sense a real binary line of thinking going on here (in general, I mean). Leaving means leaving. As if we will just put up a wall around our shores and never so much as glance at Europe again. Its weird.

If common sense ruled little would change in our trading and co-operative practices, its what would suit all sides.


Of course we have control of borders! What you on about? Have you come back from the EU and walked off the plane without showing your passport? We control our borders. We also have an opt out from Shengen so people who get a visa to visit the EU, can't visit the UK without applying directly to the UK for another visa. Just shows that you are spot on. Its all about perception. Not reality.

When a person from Europe can turn up, claim welfare, start a life and just "move in" without our being able to deny it, we do not have control of our borders. Effectively our state is taken out of our hands. And as you know, our welfare state is straining under a great burden.

No, Im not saying that is BECAUSE of immigration. However, with hundreds of thousands of people adding to an already huge population - it adds pressure to vital resources. And we can do nought about it. There are plenty of issues other than immigration around these services, I readily acknowledge.

And again, when talking immigration, people immediately turn binary. Who honestly thinks it will simply stop? Anyone? And who can honestly argue that being able to be selective in who we attract is a bad thing?

Incidentally, on immigration, I hate the whole double standard the EU membership brings. Mr French just drives over and settles down. Ive indian friends who have been through the process, and my GHod its horrific. Personally Id much prefer a single method that applies to all, fundamentally thats just fair. Ideally its simplified enough that its not too lengthly or horrific, but sturdy enough we can use it to our advantage.
 
If that was the case, I would vote to leave in a 2nd referendum (I'm a lukewarm remainer). The EU would be silly to insist on that in the case of a 2nd referendum imo, as we'd never vote for it as a people (belligerent bunch, as you say).

If we leave and all the apocalyptic stuff comes true, and -- in 15 years or whatever -- we go back to them cap in hand and say "please let us back in the club" THEN I think they would insist on the Euro etc. This might be their thinking anyway, they might not even agree to a 2nd referendum or reversing Article 50, so it might all be moot.

I don't want a 2nd referendum because I "lost" or I simply want to "win" a vote. I'm ok with us leaving as long as it doesn't turn things upside down. But I think, once it becomes clear what our options are, we should be asked again as a nation so that we can make a definitive, certain choice, fully aware of the consequences.

Ive only my gut to go on, but if you were the EU, what would you do?

We have always been a thorn in the side, a special case, a pain in the ass Im sure from their point of view.

We have got ourselves over a barrell, apparently, so what the EU do? Take us back as was, or neuter us and make sure we have no choice but to keep in line?


And heres the thing, we are one of only 3 net contributors. Out of 28. Look at the state of Greece, Italy, Spain.... Enormous burdens.

I know I mentioned it a few pages back, but I simply do not buy the "they will just tighten their belts" line.

I think us pulling out funding will be an enormous and potentially damaging loss to them. I also think it could sway more to the seemingly growing anti EU sentiment that is reported.

They are, IMO, bluffing - in the hope we buy it and fold.

If they can call our bluff, keep our input, AND leave us toothless? win-win for them.


If they let us go to hell in a hand cart (if it ever would go that way) and then consider us returning? We would be in a weakened state, far less of a power base to contribute from. Far less money to put into the budget. Far more like one of the other 25.

Which do you think works best for them?

Us leaving.
Us leaving and returniing in 15 years.
or Us bottling it and signing up full monty now?
 
Ive only my gut to go on, but if you were the EU, what would you do?

We have always been a thorn in the side, a special case, a pain in the ass Im sure from their point of view.

We have got ourselves over a barrell, apparently, so what the EU do? Take us back as was, or neuter us and make sure we have no choice but to keep in line?


And heres the thing, we are one of only 3 net contributors. Out of 28. Look at the state of Greece, Italy, Spain.... Enormous burdens.

I know I mentioned it a few pages back, but I simply do not buy the "they will just tighten their belts" line.

I think us pulling out funding will be an enormous and potentially damaging loss to them. I also think it could sway more to the seemingly growing anti EU sentiment that is reported.

They are, IMO, bluffing - in the hope we buy it and fold.

If they can call our bluff, keep our input, AND leave us toothless? win-win for them.


If they let us go to hell in a hand cart (if it ever would go that way) and then consider us returning? We would be in a weakened state, far less of a power base to contribute from. Far less money to put into the budget. Far more like one of the other 25.

Which do you think works best for them?

Us leaving.
Us leaving and returniing in 15 years.
or Us bottling it and signing up full monty now?

There are two primary concerns for the EU, imo. They are, keeping the EU together and trying to get us to contribute to it in some way (as you say, we are a big contributor).

Keeping the EU together is priority number one for them imo -- so they simply can't give us too good of a deal upon leaving, or other countries in the 27 will start asking for the same.

However, keeping the EU together also may include us staying attached to it in some form or other -- either a total reverse course on our part, or a Norway type of deal.

For them, us leaving and returning in 15 years also risks short term upheaval on their part. So I think, overall, they would be happy with us being like Norway.

At least, if I were them, that's how I see it. I could be totally wrong (I often am).
 
The Norway thing works similarly for them, we are still neutered. In fact we woul have even less say, wouldnt we?

The thing that gets over looked in these scenarios is that we are NOT like the other countries. France, Germany and Us are the only ones who pay in more than they take out.

Poland wants to leave? Its nothing like as catastrophic as us going. We are a special case in that regard.

Its where the whole "They dont want it to look favourable to leave" thing falls down for me.

I dont see many nations that would be better off out. And I dont see any that if they did leave the EU wouldnt be less burdened. Except us.
 
The Norway thing works similarly for them, we are still neutered. In fact we woul have even less say, wouldnt we?

The thing that gets over looked in these scenarios is that we are NOT like the other countries. France, Germany and Us are the only ones who pay in more than they take out.

Poland wants to leave? Its nothing like as catastrophic as us going. We are a special case in that regard.

Its where the whole "They dont want it to look favourable to leave" thing falls down for me.

I dont see many nations that would be better off out. And I dont see any that if they did leave the EU wouldnt be less burdened. Except us.

True, we should have enough clout (relative to other nations in the EU) that we can get a good deal. It's why I don't understand why we don't start from a position of saying we'd like to stay in the single market and customs union, but with reforms to free movement that make it politically acceptable for our country -- imo, that would satisfy a huge chunk of both remain and leave voters (basically, a better version of the Norway deal). Instead, May took both off the table immediately and the Tories have been pushing a "no deal" narrative.

This is an image (I think) in a post by @milo awhile ago in this thread. I think it's worth looking at. The Norway deal vs full EU membership. If we could get a good modification to free movement, then it'd be my preference.

eea.jpeg
 
Cameron went to them with the referendum pending. Asking for more control over immigration among other things. He got sent back with his tail between his legs.

The vote hadnt been cast, but it was in the pipeline and I thin kthey helped seal it.
 
Cameron went to them with the referendum pending. Asking for more control over immigration among other things. He got sent back with his tail between his legs.

The vote hadnt been cast, but it was in the pipeline and I thin kthey helped seal it.

So you think they want us to leave (or leave with no deal) so that we end up re-joining but taking the Euro etc. etc? Apologies if I have misunderstood your point.

I don't think that was the case pre-referendum, as the vote was very close and impossible to call, infact polling near to the time of the vote mostly predicted a narrow win for remain iirc. It was a coin toss in the end.
 
Pete North Politics Blog
































Monday, 9 October 2017


Now that we know there isn't going to be a deal we can at least narrow down some of the possibilities of what post-Brexit Britain looks like.

In the first year or so we are going to lose a lot of manufacturing. Virtually all JIT export manufacturing will fold inside a year. Initially we will see food prices plummet but this won't last. Domestic agriculture won't be able to compete and we'll see a gradual decline of UK production. UK meats will be premium produce and no longer affordable to most.

Once food importers have crushed all UK competition they will gradually raise their prices, simply because they can. Meanwhile wages will stay depressed and because of the collapse of disposable income and availability of staff, we can probably expect the service sector to take a big hit thus eliminating all the jobs that might provide a supplementary income.

Across the board we will see prices rising. There will be some serendipitous benefits but nothing that offsets the mass job losses. We will see a lot of foreign investment dry up and banking services will move to the EU. Dublin and Frankfurt. I expect that house prices will start to fall, but that's not going to do anyone any favours in the short to mid term.

Since a lot of freight will no longer be able to go through Calais we can expect a lot more use of the port at Hull so we may see an expansion in distribution centres in the North.

All in all we are looking at serious austerity as it will take a few years at least to rebuild our trade relations with third countries. If we go down the path of unilateral trade liberalisation then we will probably find it hard to strike new deals.

Meanwhile, since tax receipts will be way down we can expect major cuts to the forces and a number of Army redundancies. I expect to see RAF capability cut by a third. Soon enough it will become apparent that cuts to defence cannot go further so we can expect another round of cuts to council services. They will probably raise council tax to cope with it.

After years of the left bleating about austerity they are about to find out what it actually means. Britain is about to become a much more expensive pace to live. It will cause a spike in crime.

Interesting though will be how rapidly people adapt to it and habits will change, thus so will the culture. I expect cheap consumables from China will stay at low prices and they manage to circumvent the taxes and import controls anyway.

What I do expect to happen is a lot of engineering jobs to be axed since a lot of them are dependent on defence spending. It will kill off a number of parasitic resourcing firms and public sector suppliers. Basically it will wipe out the cosseted lower middle class and remind them that they are just as dispensable as the rest of us.

We can the expect to see a major rationalisation of the NHS and what functions it will perform. It will be more of a skeleton service than ever. I expect they will have trouble staffing it. Economic conditions more than any immigration control will bring numbers down to a trickle.

In every area of policy a lot of zombie projects will be culled and the things that survive on very slender justifications will fall. We can also expect banks to pull the plug in under-performing businesses. Unemployment will be back to where it was in the 80's.

The London economy will also change. Initially we will see an exodus back to the regions until rental prices normalise to the new conditions. Anyone who considers themselves "Just about managing" right now will look upon this time as carefree prosperity. There are going to be a lot of very tinkled off people.

This will see a revival of local politics and national politics will become a lot more animated. I expect the Tories will be wiped out and we will have to put up with a Corbyn government for a while, but they will be tasked with making all the major cuts. We'll soon see how far their "compassion" really goes. Even if Corbs does manage to borrow, it won't go very far. It won't plug the hole.

Eventually things will settle down and we will get used to the new order of things. My gut instinct tells me that culturally it will be a vast improvement on the status quo. There will be more reasons to cooperate and more need to congregate. I expect to see a cultural revolution where young people actually start doing surprising and reckless things again rather than becoming tedious hipsters drinking energy drinks in pop-up cereal bar book shops or whatever it is they do these days. We'll be back to the days when students had to be frugal and from their resourcefulness manage to produce interesting things and events.

A few years in and we will then have started to rebuild EU relations, probably plugging back into Euratom, Erasmus, and a large part of the single market. It will take some time to plug back into the EU aviation market. The EU will be very cautious about what it lets us back in on.

Effectively we are looking at a ten year recession. Nothing ever experienced by those under 50. Admittedly this is not the Brexit I was gunning for. I wanted a negotiated settlement to maintain the single market so that we did not have to be substantially poorer, but, in a lot of ways I actually prefer this to the prospect of maintaining the 2015 status quo with ever degraded politics with increasingly less connection to each other.

I'm of the view that in recent years people have become increasingly spoiled and self-indulgent, inventing psychological problems for themselves in the absence of any real challenges or imperatives to grow as people. I have always primarily thought Brexit would be a reboot on British politics and culture. In a lot of ways it will bring back much of what is missing. A little austerity might very well make us less frivolous.

What I do know is that the banking crisis of 2008 set in motion a series of events whereby much of the corrective potential of it was dissipated with debt and spending, largely to preserve the political order. The disruptive potential of it was barely felt in the UK. Ever since we have stagnated and though the numbers on screen may tell a story of marginal growth, I just don't see it reflected in the world around me. I still see the regions dying out and London sucking the life and vitality out of every city, including Bristol. It reminds me that the wealth of a city is its people, not its contribution to GDP.

Ahead lies challenging times. It will not be easy. Those who expected things to improve will be disappointed. But then I have a clear conscience in this. I never made any big Brexit promises. I never said there would be sunlit uplands. I did not predict that the government would make this much of a pigs ear of it, or that we would be looking at the WTO option. I expected parliament would step in to prevent that. That it hasn't tells you a good deal about the state of modern politics.

And so with that in mind, as much as I would have had it go a different way, I think, given the opportunity to vote again I would still vote to leave. Eventually it gets to a point where any change will do. I prefer an uncertain future to the certainty I was looking at.

Pete North at 19:30


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You couldn't let it lie.:):):)

;) just interested in adding his POV to the debate... What does any other leavers think about what he has written?

If all or even some of what he describes happens, would you still be happy with the way you voted?
 
So you think they want us to leave (or leave with no deal) so that we end up re-joining but taking the Euro etc. etc? Apologies if I have misunderstood your point.

I don't think that was the case pre-referendum, as the vote was very close and impossible to call, infact polling near to the time of the vote mostly predicted a narrow win for remain iirc. It was a coin toss in the end.


My point was only to counter yours in that "now" we have the referendum result. Cameron had the referendum pending, its all but the same thing. The EU didnt take him seriously though and, I think, caused plenty to swing to leave for the way they dismissed him.

I dont think this was some master plan to have us come back after a period with our tails between our legs. I think it was complacency on their part. Arrogance even. Anybody watching British politics would know there was an anti-EU sentiment among many of the MPs and population. A referendum was promised FFS, thats unheard of at that time and should have had alarm bells ringing.

Instead they just patted ol Dave on the head and sent him packing.

They are so dogmatic about their ethos that they didnt even consider that it doesnt actually work for all. And I think they just assumed "common sense" would prevail in the referendum.


;) just interested in adding his POV to the debate... What does any other leavers think about what he has written?

If all or even some of what he describes happens, would you still be happy with the way you voted?

Ive no idea who he is or how reliable.

As I said after you posted it yesterday, I dont think it reads that badly to be honest.

Obviously, a collapse/recession to start - but from there the shoots of some genuine progress.

Cultural revolution, dealing with europe on our terms, political renewal, society actually being more communal... That doesnt really read as a horror piece to me at all.

Rather - Itll get worse before it gets better.

Which I dont think anyone has been foolish enough to assume wont be the case. Ive not seen anyone say April next year will be some eutopia.
 
My point was only to counter yours in that "now" we have the referendum result. Cameron had the referendum pending, its all but the same thing. The EU didnt take him seriously though and, I think, caused plenty to swing to leave for the way they dismissed him.

I dont think this was some master plan to have us come back after a period with our tails between our legs. I think it was complacency on their part. Arrogance even. Anybody watching British politics would know there was an anti-EU sentiment among many of the MPs and population. A referendum was promised FFS, thats unheard of at that time and should have had alarm bells ringing.

Instead they just patted ol Dave on the head and sent him packing.

They are so dogmatic about their ethos that they didnt even consider that it doesnt actually work for all. And I think they just assumed "common sense" would prevail in the referendum.




Ive no idea who he is or how reliable.

As I said after you posted it yesterday, I dont think it reads that badly to be honest.

Obviously, a collapse/recession to start - but from there the shoots of some genuine progress.

Cultural revolution, dealing with europe on our terms, political renewal, society actually being more communal... That doesnt really read as a horror piece to me at all.

Rather - Itll get worse before it gets better.

Which I dont think anyone has been foolish enough to assume wont be the case. Ive not seen anyone say April next year will be some eutopia.

Sorry I missed your reply. It does sound quite bad to me to be honest. Scarily so.
 
My point was only to counter yours in that "now" we have the referendum result. Cameron had the referendum pending, its all but the same thing. The EU didnt take him seriously though and, I think, caused plenty to swing to leave for the way they dismissed him.

Ok. Well I don't agree, I think actually triggering an exit from Europe gives more leverage than saying we will have a referendum. But we can disagree on this point, it doesn't really matter.

What is your overall position on this issue? I have said that I'm a lukewarm remain voter but I'm ok with leaving if the terms don't screw up the country (massive job losses etc.). I'm not ok with leaving at any cost to satisfy rabid wing-nuts in the Tory Party, or just so some of those who voted to leave can "win" some facile argument.
 
Ok. Well I don't agree, I think actually triggering an exit from Europe gives more leverage than saying we will have a referendum. But we can disagree on this point, it doesn't really matter.

What is your overall position on this issue? I have said that I'm a lukewarm remain voter but I'm ok with leaving if the terms don't screw up the country (massive job losses etc.). I'm not ok with leaving at any cost to satisfy rabid wing-nuts in the Tory Party, or just so some of those who voted to leave can "win" some facile argument.

I think this is similar to my position as well. I called my self an Ardent remained, only because I thought leaving the EU would be complete cluster fudge... which it looks like it is turning out to be. But if we can all be better off then yeah... let's leave... i just haven't seen any evidence of that being even remotely the case.
 
You know one of the things that tinkles me off the most is the Faux outrage to the EU27s negociatint position and the 'surprise' about the economic realities that are only beginning to transpire.

Is that both were completely predictable (I did so in this very thread I believe). And I'm far from a political analyst or economics guru... I studied media for fudge sake.

So what were Liam Fox et al actually thinking would happen?
 
Sorry I missed your reply. It does sound quite bad to me to be honest. Scarily so.

Fair enough. Personally I find the idea of the whole country getting a kick up the ass quite refreshing!

Ok. Well I don't agree, I think actually triggering an exit from Europe gives more leverage than saying we will have a referendum. But we can disagree on this point, it doesn't really matter.

What is your overall position on this issue? I have said that I'm a lukewarm remain voter but I'm ok with leaving if the terms don't screw up the country (massive job losses etc.). I'm not ok with leaving at any cost to satisfy rabid wing-nuts in the Tory Party, or just so some of those who voted to leave can "win" some facile argument.

Thats fine. I maintain there was a genuine threat that the EU didnt take seriously, but theres little point exhausting the topic.

Overal position? Kind of "meh" really.

On the spectrum of Remain <-----> Leave I guess Im more leave, but Im not especially passionate about it.

I am quite euro sceptic, I dont really like the idea of a european superstate, and I think thats obviously where things are heading.

That said, I love Europe. Its beautiful, and fascinating. Its an amazing place.

Ideally we end up as a close family friend rather than sibling. Close relations, trade and a co-operative sensibility would suit me fine. While not being bound by the growing EU state.

I actually voted remain. Mostly because I have no faith in our politicians to make the most of the situation, not because I was committed to staying. I think leaving could be a huge opportunity for the UK, but I also think if you can rely on someone to fudge it up it will be our government - whichever party is in power.

So now its a reality Im looking at it a bit more holistically. Short term will be rough. Longer term I really think it could lead to some REAL politics again. Which in turn can lead to real and meaningful change. Which is quite an exciting prospect.
 
You know one of the things that tinkles me off the most is the Faux outrage to the EU27s negociatint position and the 'surprise' about the economic realities that are only beginning to transpire.

Is that both were completely predictable (I did so in this very thread I believe). And I'm far from a political analyst or economics guru... I studied media for fudge sake.

So what were Liam Fox et al actually thinking would happen?

At the moment I subscribe to Scaras view on brinksmanship here.

I am convinced us leaving is as traumatic for them as it is for us. Common sense should find some middle ground.

If we end up paying a fee for trade access its win-win for me. We keep our financial passport and trading partners, they still get a boost to the budget.

We go our own independent way, whatever that looks like. They get to carry on doing what they are doing.

Its a case of who blinks first. And right now, our lot seem so bone headed Im pretty sure they will cut off their nose just to spite their face - which the EU really needs to recognise.

Hard Brexit is probably the worst result on both sides.

An amended Norway/EEA model as per the infographic above looks pretty reasonable though as @the dza says.
 
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