Politics, politics, politics

[StephenH]

I know it's just as likely that Brexit will lead to Liam Fox's deregulated Atlanticism as my to degrowth paradise. But I want to feel voting in the general election could actually change something, and that perhaps we could even try both. I just don't like that the corporate interests narrows the political spectrum down so much that there really is no alternative. Even Corbyn (in theory a radical) can't nationalise industries, end planned obsolesce or implement a genuine industrial strategy, because of the capitalist binds of the EU.

My parents are baby boomers mainly feel betrayed by the 1975 referendum and what happened with Maastricht. They've be waiting decades to right that wrong. Is that context still a factor for you?

In terms of history, I think at least it will be compared to Austria not joining the zollverein (i.e. the secondary Holy Roman power leaving the rest to be unified under the premier power), at most it could be as significant as Luther's Ninety-five Theses (the spark that led to the overthrow of a decadent all-pervasive ideology).

Who do you currently vote for, party wise?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Who do you currently vote for, party wise?

Tactically Liberal Dem (in a three-way marginal)

At heart probably I'm Green, but I have issues with their small thinking e.g. focus on limiting travel (only 11% of pollution, compared to 40% domestic boilers and 40% power plants), when the solutions are in reducing production, localism and big decisions on green energy

I'm socially liberal, but the pro-federalism of the Lib Dems has always been hard to swallow for me

My favourite politicians are from all sides of the spectrum though - Tony Benn, Tristram Hunt, David Davies, Daniel Hannan, Nick Clegg, Norman Lamb

 

[StephenH]

Tactically Liberal Dem (in a three-way marginal)

At heart probably I'm Green, but I have issues with their small thinking e.g. focus on limiting travel (only 11% of pollution, compared to 40% domestic boilers and 40% power plants), when the solutions are in reducing production, localism and big decisions on green energy

I'm socially liberal, but the pro-federalism of the Lib Dems has always been hard to swallow for me

My favourite politicians are from all sides of the spectrum though - Tony Benn, Tristram Hunt, David Davies, Daniel Hannan, Nick Clegg, Norman Lamb

Thank you

Now I know little more about the real person.
You sound very driven politically as you should, I'm not too far away from yourself ideologically but, pragmatism has increased with age.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Thank you

Now I know little more about the real person.
You sound very driven politically as you should, I'm not too far away from yourself ideologically but, pragmatism has increased with age.

I have strong feelings, but I don't put it into activism because I've never found a close enough association with any organised group

Brexit has mobilised me a bit, because I see the opportunity for things to change significantly for the better. I'm desperate to see May & co. get it sorted over the next 18 months, but mainly because it will create a real opportunity in the 2022 election. Once the Tories have repatriated power, it'll be anyone's for the taking.

The problem I have with pragmatism is that there's too much powerful interest. For instance, fracking is the dumbest thing humans have done since CFCs or Thalidomide. It's so obvious, but we can't stop it because the engines of profit demand it. We need to have a government that can stand up to the oil and nuclear giants and say - no, we're going 100% renewables with local production and storage by 2040.

 

[StephenH]

I have strong feelings, but I don't put it into activism because I've never found a close enough association with any organised group

Brexit has mobilised me a bit, because I see the opportunity for things to change significantly for the better. I'm desperate to see May & co. get it sorted over the next 18 months, but mainly because it will create a real opportunity in the 2022 election. Once the Tories have repatriated power, it'll be anyone's for the taking.

The problem I have with pragmatism is that there's too much powerful interest. For instance, fracking is the dumbest thing humans have done since CFCs or Thalidomide. It's so obvious, but we can't stop it because the engines of profit demand it. We need to have a government that can stand up to the oil and nuclear giants and say - no, we're going 100% renewables with local production and storage by 2040.

You should join the Greens. Don't wast that strength of feeling.
Don't end up saying 'I wish I'd.....'

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I have strong feelings, but I don't put it into activism because I've never found a close enough association with any organised group

Brexit has mobilised me a bit, because I see the opportunity for things to change significantly for the better. I'm desperate to see May & co. get it sorted over the next 18 months, but mainly because it will create a real opportunity in the 2022 election. Once the Tories have repatriated power, it'll be anyone's for the taking.

The problem I have with pragmatism is that there's too much powerful interest. For instance, fracking is the dumbest thing humans have done since CFCs or Thalidomide. It's so obvious, but we can't stop it because the engines of profit demand it. We need to have a government that can stand up to the oil and nuclear giants and say - no, we're going 100% renewables with local production and storage by 2040.

In victorian times this country had a history of innovation. We are surrounded by water, why we are not going all in for wave turbine technology I do not know. I am slightly obsessed with vertical farming and though it is good for a lot of vegetables it is difficult for root vegetables at the moment. Literally hundreds of my searches on google are to do with vertical farming.

The Swedish set up a cross party group of politicians with a target of becoming energy neutral by 2030, we should be doing similar. I want ambition I want verve I want to see us look for forward progressive answers. Whether it is to with energy or getting people off drug addictions.

Labour guy was in the paper today saying Universities should be offering 2 year degrees to help with student debt levels, I want people to look for answers instead of moaning and blaming, one reason why I am pro Brexit, lets look out into the world with ambition and desire not sit around crying that we dont make anything any more. Well now is the time to change be positive and ambitious.

 

[Gutter Boy]

You should join the Greens. Don't wast that strength of feeling.
Don't end up saying 'I wish I'd.....'

I'm a bit of a petrol head though (not literally, fast electric cars will be cool too). I think the one thing Greens shouldn't do is seek to curb travel (which broadens the mind) and individual freedom. It's freight that needs cutting (through localism). Lots of Greens abstain from flying and that kind of stuff. I'd be parking round the corner from meetings and pretending I got the bus.

I'm more into green futures and technology, than the punitive action on individuals (which is always in Green manifestos). It's companies that need to be tackled e.g. over packaging, imports over local production and planned obsolesce.

 

[StephenH]

I'm a bit of a petrol head though (not literally, fast electric cars will be cool too). I think the one thing Greens shouldn't do is seek to curb travel (which broadens the mind) and individual freedom. It's freight that needs cutting (through localism). Lots of Greens abstain from flying and that kind of stuff. I'd be parking round the corner from meetings and pretending I got the bus.

I'm more into green futures and technology, than the punitive action on individuals (which is always in Green manifestos). It's companies that need to be tackled e.g. over packaging, imports over local production and planned obsolesce.

Go for it, your a long time dead!

 

[Gutter Boy]

In victorian times this country had a history of innovation. We are surrounded by water, why we are not going all in for wave turbine technology I do not know. I am slightly obsessed with vertical farming and though it is good for a lot of vegetables it is difficult for root vegetables at the moment. Literally hundreds of my searches on google are to do with vertical farming.

The Swedish set up a cross party group of politicians with a target of becoming energy neutral by 2030, we should be doing similar. I want ambition I want verve I want to see us look for forward progressive answers. Whether it is to with energy or getting people off drug addictions.

Labour guy was in the paper today saying Universities should be offering 2 year degrees to help with student debt levels, I want people to look for answers instead of moaning and blaming, one reason why I am pro Brexit, lets look out into the world with ambition and desire not sit around crying that we dont make anything any more. Well now is the time to change be positive and ambitious.

I'm not sure wave technology will ever be that efficient.

Personally I'd wave stamp duty on every house that's next sold with solar panels, a wind turbine and a local battery (excluding conservation areas). I'd encourage individuals or neighbourhoods to move off-grind/self sufficient.

2 year degrees will turn universities even more into sausage factories and less into creators of new knowledge and understanding. The way to fix loans is to turn it into a graduate tax - so they can't ever be paid off, it's just x% over £21k (increasing with inflation) for 30 years. No debt ever tied to individuals.

 

[scaramanga]

In victorian times this country had a history of innovation. We are surrounded by water, why we are not going all in for wave turbine technology I do not know. I am slightly obsessed with vertical farming and though it is good for a lot of vegetables it is difficult for root vegetables at the moment. Literally hundreds of my searches on google are to do with vertical farming.

Do you mean "uphill gardening"?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I'm a bit of a petrol head though (not literally, fast electric cars will be cool too). I think the one thing Greens shouldn't do is seek to curb travel (which broadens the mind) and individual freedom. It's freight that needs cutting (through localism). Lots of Greens abstain from flying and that kind of stuff. I'd be parking round the corner from meetings and pretending I got the bus.

I'm more into green futures and technology, than the punitive action on individuals (which is always in Green manifestos). It's companies that need to be tackled e.g. over packaging, imports over local production and planned obsolesce.

Sounds very similar to things I am thinking.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Do you mean "uphill gardening"?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vertical-farming-dr-tohid-nooralvandi

By the year 2050, nearly 80% of the earth’s population will reside in urban centers. Applying the most conservative estimates to current demographic trends, the human population will increase by about 3 billion people during the interim.

The vertical farm is a world-changing innovation whose time has come. dingdongson Despommier's visionary book provides a blueprint for securing the world's food supply and at the same time solving one of the gravest environmental crises facing us today."--Sting

 

[glasgowspur]

Over population is the biggest green issue. No one wants to tackle it.

I do find it incredible that the generation that left school at 14 and 15 to work, usually in conditions that were awful, and worked through some of the highest taxed decades we have had, fougbt for workers rights and lived in squalid slums are now getting it in the neck from a generation that want to stay in school until they're in their mid 20s at the tax payers expense,usually living with their parents, and do nothing but bleat about how unfair the world is.

It's not really their fault, and it's definitely not their grandparents, the pensioners, fault. Unfortunately, it's my generations fault,they have spoilt all the precious little brats.

I should probably cut and paste this in the unpopular opinions thread as well.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I would agree the younger generations need to toughen up(i am in mid 50's) but the government needed to put up the pension age far quicker when life expectancy went up.

Always thought hard work was good for the soul.

 

[the dza]

Over population is the biggest green issue. No one wants to tackle it.

I do find it incredible that the generation that left school at 14 and 15 to work, usually in conditions that were awful, and worked through some of the highest taxed decades we have had, fougbt for workers rights and lived in squalid slums are now getting it in the neck from a generation that want to stay in school until they're in their mid 20s at the tax payers expense,usually living with their parents, and do nothing but bleat about how unfair the world is.

It's not really their fault, and it's definitely not their grandparents, the pensioners, fault. Unfortunately, it's my generations fault,they have spoilt all the precious little brats.

I should probably cut and paste this in the unpopular opinions thread as well.

I find it incredible that you get people who are in their 50s/60s now who lump themselves in with this group! If someone is currently aged 57, they left school in 1976 and were starting out proper in life during the 1980s. Hardly The Road to Wigan Pier! If you were a manual worker, you didn't have so much automation or EU migration to compete with and if you were a worker educated at university, you got that education for free. All backed by stronger trade unions. If someone of this age was in the forces, they had the Falklands (and maybe the first Gulf War) but nothing like Afghanistan or Iraq to deal with. And watching live football was much better...

Porn nowadays is far superior though.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Over population is the biggest green issue. No one wants to tackle it.

I do find it incredible that the generation that left school at 14 and 15 to work, usually in conditions that were awful, and worked through some of the highest taxed decades we have had, fougbt for workers rights and lived in squalid slums are now getting it in the neck from a generation that want to stay in school until they're in their mid 20s at the tax payers expense,usually living with their parents, and do nothing but bleat about how unfair the world is.

It's not really their fault, and it's definitely not their grandparents, the pensioners, fault. Unfortunately, it's my generations fault,they have spoilt all the precious little brats.

I should probably cut and paste this in the unpopular opinions thread as well.

Bear in mind, this is the generation that now has to deal with a university degree mostly being *required* for the most rudimentary of jobs. From photocopying technician to Starbucks employee, degree inflation has now served to make it impossible for you to even get your resume read for most generalist jobs if it doesn't have a uni degree on it. These kids were told that a uni degree was the absolute necessity for a comfortable middle-class life and career - then, when they came out of their uni programs, degree in hand, they were bluntly told that a BA/BSc was often just the bare minimum for a minimum wage job these days. Or, even worse, that they should have considered trades - the same trades that they were dissuaded from pursuing while in school because 'a uni degree is what you need.'

Hell, forget 'these kids', *I* was told that - I'm part of this generation, albeit slightly older and from a somewhat different cultural and ethnic background. So what alternative do they have to staying in school until their early/mid-twenties? Same goes with living with their parents - it's not like they *want* to live with their parents and put off the milestones that they were told were an everyday part of life (moving out, getting married, having kids, buying a house), they can't afford anything different because of the financial situation they're left in post-graduation, often working minimum wage jobs with a degree they were told would guarantee them a more stable life than what they're now living. And they have to get a degree, because - well, see the first paragraph. The new school diploma, more or less.

You're right, it's not their fault. It is the fault of a society that told them that uni was the be all and end all of societal advancement, that studying hard would bring rewards, that a uni degree would secure them a future, and that it was *worth it* that they spend their early/mid-twenties earning that degree. And, personally, having gone through a bachelor's and a master's at a 'prestigious' university in Canada, and seeing the reality of the job market as it is - biology degree holders working tables, engineering and mathematics graduates sometimes spending years unemployed or underemployed, politics and economics and sociology graduates interning and endlessly scanning files for *free* (gotta get that experience)...

Given all that, a bit of bitterness towards society is not unreasonable for them to have, I think. Especially when society as it's structured in the West is generally weighted towards the elderly over the young, and when the young are being bluntly told not to expect any of the benefits their parents and elders took for granted. These kids graduated from university as the most highly educated, most generally knowledgeable, most technically and socially adept generation in history up to that point (just by dint of how many of them went to university and grew up learning those skills), and then got told that they were lazy, not good enough, deluded, soft, and 'sensitive'. And when they ask for taxpayer help to earn what is basically a glorified school diploma at this point, they get told they're 'precious little brats' by the very same people who will be the last to experience benefits and societal protections that the Western world has decided young people won't get.

 

[glasgowspur]

I find it incredible that you get people who are in their 50s/60s now who lump themselves in with this group! If someone is currently aged 57, they left school in 1976 and were starting out proper in life during the 1980s. Hardly The Road to Wigan Pier! If you were a manual worker, you didn't have so much automation or EU migration to compete with and if you were a worker educated at university, you got that education for free. All backed by stronger trade unions. If someone of this age was in the forces, they had the Falklands (and maybe the first Gulf War) but nothing like Afghanistan or Iraq to deal with. And watching live football was much better...

Porn nowadays is far superior though.

If you mean me then let me say that in 49. I don't claim to have had a hard life.
But when I look at the life my parents and their contemporaries had, then see them being targeted as having an easy life now then I think I'm justified in defending them.

Every generation has it's hurdles to overcome, I left school at 16 with 1 o"grade and 2 million unemployed. You do the best you can to stand on your own and make your way in the world. Kids today are denied that valuable experienceby over protective parents.
As I said in my original post, it's not the kids fault, it's they're parents fault.

Agree about football, not the porn. Way to much spitting, looking at the camera and fake moaning. Actually footie and porn are very similar now, what's the world coming to.

 

[the dza]

If you mean me then let me say that in 49. I don't claim to have had a hard life.
But when I look at the life my parents and their contemporaries had, then see them being targeted as having an easy life now then I think I'm justified in defending them.

Every generation has it's hurdles to overcome, I left school at 16 with 1 o"grade and 2 million unemployed. You do the best you can to stand on your own and make your way in the world. Kids today are denied that valuable experienceby over protective parents.
As I said in my original post, it's not the kids fault, it's they're parents fault.

Agree about football, not the porn. Way to much spitting, looking at the camera and fake moaning. Actually footie and porn are very similar now, what's the world coming to.

Nah mate, I didn't mean you specifically, was just talking generally. I should have worded my post better.

I think each generation tends to see the one that follows as a bunch of pussies! And there is some truth to that. I also think there is some truth that the world gets ever more complicated, and there are/were advantages to a simpler life, even if it was harder in other ways. I'm 33, I don't think I'd have liked to have gone to school and had my teenage years (and mistakes) lived on social media, glad I missed all that sh1t.

 

[glasgowspur]

Bear in mind, this is the generation that now has to deal with a university degree mostly being *required* for the most rudimentary of jobs. From photocopying technician to Starbucks employee, degree inflation has now served to make it impossible for you to even get your resume read for most generalist jobs if it doesn't have a uni degree on it. These kids were told that a uni degree was the absolute necessity for a comfortable middle-class life and career - then, when they came out of their uni programs, degree in hand, they were bluntly told that a BA/BSc was often just the bare minimum for a minimum wage job these days. Or, even worse, that they should have considered trades - the same trades that they were dissuaded from pursuing while in school because 'a uni degree is what you need.'

Hell, forget 'these kids', *I* was told that - I'm part of this generation, albeit slightly older and from a somewhat different cultural and ethnic background. So what alternative do they have to staying in school until their early/mid-twenties? Same goes with living with their parents - it's not like they *want* to live with their parents and put off the milestones that they were told were an everyday part of life (moving out, getting married, having kids, buying a house), they can't afford anything different because of the financial situation they're left in post-graduation, often working minimum wage jobs with a degree they were told would guarantee them a more stable life than what they're now living. And they have to get a degree, because - well, see the first paragraph. The new school diploma, more or less.

You're right, it's not their fault. It is the fault of a society that told them that uni was the be all and end all of societal advancement, that studying hard would bring rewards, that a uni degree would secure them a future, and that it was *worth it* that they spend their early/mid-twenties earning that degree. And, personally, having gone through a bachelor's and a master's at a 'prestigious' university in Canada, and seeing the reality of the job market as it is - biology degree holders working tables, engineering and mathematics graduates sometimes spending years unemployed or underemployed, politics and economics and sociology graduates interning and endlessly scanning files for *free* (gotta get that experience)...

Given all that, a bit of bitterness towards society is not unreasonable for them to have, I think. Especially when society as it's structured in the West is generally weighted towards the elderly over the young, and when the young are being bluntly told not to expect any of the benefits their parents and elders took for granted. These kids graduated from university as the most highly educated, most generally knowledgeable, most technically and socially adept generation in history up to that point (just by dint of how many of them went to university and grew up learning those skills), and then got told that they were lazy, not good enough, deluded, soft, and 'sensitive'. And when they ask for taxpayer help to earn what is basically a glorified school diploma at this point, they get told they're 'precious little brats' by the very same people who will be the last to experience benefits and societal protections that the Western world has decided young people won't get.

I understand their bitterness, it's just misdirected imv.
They were sold a pup with uni education. I said it at the time, Blair's 75% uni for school leavers was high on new Labour's list of blunders.
But everyone saw it as a feather in their cap, well that feather becomes worthless if everyone has one.
this obsession with uni ed has reperecussions yet to be felt.
the really dumb thing is most of the people who complain about kids are their parents, the ones who made them the way they are.
I don't have any kids, and I roar with laughter when I listen to my mates and family talk about theirs. all the problems they created when the kids were young are now coming home to roost. they can't see that how they raised their kids are the problem, not the kids. they are a product of their environment.
my wife works in child care, the 5 hours a day the child is in nursery learning social skills is wiped away in 2 hours in a home environment.

your last paragraph is the biggest con of all. we were told get that education and you won't need to live on the state in your old age. you will be so wealthy the pension will be chicken feed to you. now the economics of that has caught up with us. take 75% of school leavers off the tax role for 5 years together with longer life (prolonging it also costs money) at the other end, then it really should have been obvious that there was going to be a hole somewhere.
its also a myth that all or even most pensioners are living the high life. pensioner poverty is still very much alive. the problem is the system, not pensioners.

btw I'm 49, left school at 16 with 1 o'grade, not been out of work for more than 3 months since I was 17. I pay 40% tax,
my wife left college at 18, has been in the same job ever since, no mat leave and thankfully no long term sick leave for either of us. we are unlikely to get any of these benefits at the end of my working career either. we are fortunate that with some forward planning it shouldn't make any real difference to us.
that's the system, theres winners and losers, its for the benefit of those of who need it, and in my view todays pensioners are still very much in need of it.

 

[glasgowspur]

Nah mate, I didn't mean you specifically, was just talking generally. I should have worded my post better.

I think each generation tends to see the one that follows as a bunch of pussies! And there is some truth to that. I also think there is some truth that the world gets ever more complicated, and there are/were advantages to a simpler life, even if it was harder in other ways. I'm 33, I don't think I'd have liked to have gone to school and had my teenage years (and mistakes) lived on social media, glad I missed all that sh1t.

no worries, its my view, nothing else.
I knew it wouldn't be popular because I have mates and family with kids and all they do is bitch about the kids, they don't like it when I a point out well you made them.

I'm fortunate that my parents, mother in law and quite a lot of their siblings are still around and in their 80s. none of them are living the high life, or have done since they retired. my dad worked from when he was 15 until he retired when he was 67. all during my childhood he worked 7 days a week, and a 12 hour shift twice a week. it peeves my to hear people say they don't deserve what little they get. they don't get enough in my view.