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Politics, politics, politics

Exactly, why not? However, I fail to see how a bunch of geriatric members of the aristocracy, dull headed political hacks and other associated non entities add anything to the democratic process. Modern forward looking democracies are meritocracies and they do not have un elected time servers and reactionary aristocrats in their parliaments

Because people sometimes elect Hitler or Mussolini, and they need to be saved from themselves.

Being unelected means the upper chamber don't have to be short-termist or accountable to short-term populist opinion.

I don't support the current format of the HoL (it should be appointments from the professions, more like the Irish system), but an elected upper chamber would be far worse than what we currently have.
 
Because people sometimes elect Hitler or Mussolini, and they need to be saved from themselves.

Being unelected means the upper chamber don't have to be short-termist or accountable to short-term populist opinion.

I don't support the current format of the HoL (it should be appointments from the professions, more like the Irish system), but an elected upper chamber would be far worse than what we currently have.

Quite old boy, that's why we need the Viscount Linley OBE, OM, KG as our completely unrepresentative, reactionary Tory loving and unelected rep in the Lords. If you're that worried about the public being 'saved from themselves', why have universal suffrage in the first place?. This is a view probably shared by the good viscount, because he's such a concerned democrat, much like yourself. ;)
 
We could set our customs tariff at whatever we want it to be. At the moment it's high because the EU is protectionist. But we would have the freedom to lower it to stimulate RoW trade, or rise it to protect our domestic producers - it's the flexibility to be dynamic.

There does seem cross party (Con-Lab) support for the white paper proposals. The only thing Labour wanted different were unilateral EU status (that will be sorted bilaterally soon anyway) and protection for workers' rights (carrying across EU standards into EU law, rather than becoming Singapore; which I think the Tories are fine with, but want to retain the threat of the alternative).

Soft Brexit would be disastrous because 100% of voters would be unhappy. There'd be no return of sovereignty or end of FoM for the leavers, and the EU would dictate rules to us, which would go in a much more German corporatism or French statism direction without the UK's economic liberalism counterbalance. I.e. losing our influence to direct it would make it increasingly unattractive for British interests. It's the worst of both worlds.

The FTA route would get the 52% on board straight away, and the improving economic position as we re-engage the world would slowly win round the rest.

I don't think parliament will be too much of a problem. The Tories will whip their c.25 soft Brexiteers (apart from Clarke) reminding them that the alternative is an election, while the Labour leadership will be deliberately ineffective again so they can appease both their ex-UKIPs and students, while also getting what they ideologically want (an end to big business undercutting British workers through FoM).

The reality of the situation is that what you are proposing is unlikely to get through parliament without splitting up the government. The DUP want an open boarder with the Republic which means Customs Union and matching CAP/subsidies (which means EEA). The Scottish Tories want EEA access too. Labour's position is vague and ill-defined but a "jobs first Brexit" points towards EEA too. A Con/Lab hard Brexiteer pact might get the vote through but the collateral damage would be huge.

On setting our own tariffs, the barriers are considerable and complex. I won't pretend to know more than a smidgen on this, so i defer to people with better knowledge than me. Reading this seems to be a good starting place

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/hilton-beef-quota/
 
Interesting stuff from YouGov on the election voting breakdown. It doesn't look good for the Tories in the longer term.

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https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/
 
I'm surprised by Social Grade, Education Level, Working Status...

Education level is the dividing line on the authoritarian/libertarian axis that is defining politics right now.

It was the split on Brexit and it explains the gulf in voting patterns between the major cities and non-metropolitan areas.

It also fits in reasonably with the age profile and the increase in numbers of people going to university from the 90s onwards.

There is a gulf in values between the baby boomers and generation x.
 
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Young people get older though.

Young people are more left wing because they have nothing to lose. The older you get, the more stake you get in society, the more you want to preserve that.

Lots of the 18-25 year old Labour voters will have mortgages and children by 2022. The will be more bothered by economic competence rather than idealism.
 
Fine in theory but no government could see through a policy that would destroy British industry and agriculture.
Only if British industry and agriculture products are overpriced. You can't go on propping up increasingly inefficient sectors forever - at some point they'll have to compete and stand on their own two feet.

A zero tariff deal would be quick to negotiate because you are getting nothing in return and have given everything up for it.
We'd get cheaper goods and services and the ability to trade our goods and services back without tariffs. That's the whole point of a zero tariff deal.

We will have to reveal our main objectives at the beginning of negotiations because they will dictate how they will proceed. The EU have been briefing us on the EU27's position for months to help us prepare. The best way to approach this is transparently. It will be impossible to keep secrets anyway.
We've already set out our main objectives, as has the EU. Both positions are as silly as each other.
 
Interesting stuff from YouGov on the election voting breakdown. It doesn't look good for the Tories in the longer term.

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https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/
That's always been the case.

What people always forget is that for every new, young voter there's another who now has a mortgage and a family. One that realises the real world isn't built on fairy tales and has to be paid for.

edit: sorry @Gutter Boy , just saw your post and realised you'd already made that point
 
Education level is the dividing line on the authoritarian/libertarian axis that is defining politics right now.

It was the split on Brexit and it explains the gulf in voting patterns between the major cities and non-metropolitan areas.

It also fits in reasonably with the age profile and the increase in numbers of people going to university from the 90s onwards.

There is a gulf in values between the baby boomers and generation x.
Unfortunately, education level spans such a large time on that study that it's an entirely worthless measure. When half the country attends university, then graduates are no longer the intellectual elite.

If you compared 1950s/60s graduates and for a modern measure used Oxbridge graduates you'd probably get a better measure.
 
Young people get older though.

Young people are more left wing because they have nothing to lose. The older you get, the more stake you get in society, the more you want to preserve that.

Lots of the 18-25 year old Labour voters will have mortgages and children by 2022. The will be more bothered by economic competence rather than idealism.
That will be interesting to see, because the stake the current over 50s have in is not available to the generations below them, so when they reach 30-50 with little to show for it, i suspect you will see less self interest voting.
And I bet most won't have mortgages!
 
That's always been the case.

What people always forget is that for every new, young voter there's another who now has a mortgage and a family. One that realises the real world isn't built on fairy tales and has to be paid for.

I think that these opinion poll results don't hear that out. Labour are ahead in all working age groups.

I saw somewhere else that 30% of voters in the 25 - 44 age group who voted Tory in 2015 switched to Labour this time (I'll try and find them, it may have been from Ashcroft).

These aren't student voters. These are people with mortgages and school age children. It presents a problem for the Conservatives if they cannot win them back.
 
Only if British industry and agriculture products are overpriced. You can't go on propping up increasingly inefficient sectors forever - at some point they'll have to compete and stand on their own two feet.

We'd get cheaper goods and services and the ability to trade our goods and services back without tariffs. That's the whole point of a zero tariff deal.

We've already set out our main objectives, as has the EU. Both positions are as silly as each other.

A British government that did not protect the rural economy and manufacturing would be wiped out at the next election. However much you think it should happen, you must know that it won't.

Besides, there aren't the numbers in parliament for the type of arrangement that you are talking about. The DUP want a soft border with the Republic which means we will be in the Customs Union and probably the EEA too whilst matching CAP. If we had more time, it might be possible to create this afresh to save Brexiteer blushes but time seems to be the one thing we don't have right now.

If you want something in return from a trade deal, it is going to take longer. Tarrifs are the easy but, it is the removal of non-tarrif barriers that makes the biggest difference to business and is the hardest to reach agreement on.

I presume that you are proposing that we continue to follow European standards. There are only two shows in town here (US and EU) and it would make sense to align ourselves with our nearest block, who we do the most trade with. This may make it easier to agree trade deals because we could follow the EU around after they had done the heavy lifting but it is hardly the sunlit uplands that we were promised.

Our position seems to still be have cake/eat cake and the EU position has always been that the four freedoms are indivisible. The biggest barrier to a deal at the moment seems to be our government's ECJ red line. The obvious way around it is using the EFTA court but we seem to be resisting that too.
 
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