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Politics, politics, politics

Labour has to understand what people want who voted Brexit i.e. be nationalistic, and start engaging in a form of 'Brit and proud' branding. It needn't influence policy greatly, its nationalistic fluff they need. Talk about the working British man and women and how we'll fight for them and improve their lives etc. Then be brave and say that Labour is pro EU because it will help British people keep jobs and pay for the NHS and good schools. To keep the nationalistic diatribe commit to cutting any useless immigration for outside the EU. If the person isn't useful to our nation, Labour will keep them out. Which is something the Tories have talked and talked about but never ever done! Labour has portray themselves as a strong party that represents the British people first and foremost, 'which is why we back trading and remaining in europe.' Plus attack Tories as entitled, moneyed, out of touch.

If they did that they could capture both sides of the brexit divide in my opinion. Election politics now is less about reality, and more about image, feeling and intent. Successful parties will get that image right above the content.

Kind of like how racists think the BNP in 2000 would start a sentence like "I am not racist but...." then go on to say something obviously racist. The working class saw through that and did not want any part of it, if Labour do the fluff thing and frankly they have been doing that for a long time, people will and have seen through it. It is why they are not the working class party any more.

Apart from my EU views I am all for the Liberals doing better in the polls and keeping the tories in check. I have always said that the country will even itself out over time. If we have a massive tory win as looks likely then I imagine over 5-10 years they will swing to far from the centre and to many people will be getting poorer(is going to happen whoever wins) then it offers the opportunity to a party from the left to move towards the centre and win a general election as happened in the 90's.

That said if or when Scotland finally buggers off then the is likely to be a significant right wing party because England usually votes that way. Even more so we the boundary changes.
 
Labour has to understand what people want who voted Brexit i.e. be nationalistic, and start engaging in a form of 'Brit and proud' branding. It needn't influence policy greatly, its nationalistic fluff they need. Talk about the working British man and women and how we'll fight for them and improve their lives etc. Then be brave and say that Labour is pro EU because it will help British people keep jobs and pay for the NHS and good schools. To keep the nationalistic diatribe commit to cutting any useless immigration for outside the EU. If the person isn't useful to our nation, Labour will keep them out. Which is something the Tories have talked and talked about but never ever done! Labour has portray themselves as a strong party that represents the British people first and foremost, 'which is why we back trading and remaining in europe.' Plus attack Tories as entitled, moneyed, out of touch.

If they did that they could capture both sides of the brexit divide in my opinion. Election politics now is less about reality, and more about image, feeling and intent. Successful parties will get that image right above the content.

There's an interesting parallel here with the ongoing rise of Jean-Luc Melenchon as the French campaigning season concludes - his 'La France Insoumise' ('Insubmissive France', more or less) movement is both left-wing (even more so than the campaign being run by Benoit Hamon, the official Socialist Party candidate) and fiercely patriotic. In fact, in one of his recent rallies, his supporters actually playfully chanted about the fact that Melenchon now nearly always ends his public appearances with 'La Marseillaise', where once he would have belted out more internationalist, classically Marxist tunes in his younger days - Melenchon broke into an embarrassed chuckle, and proceeded to lead the crowd in a hearty rendition of 'The Internationale' before departing.

This nationalistic approach has taken him from polling at less than 10% (behind Macron, Le Pen, Fillon and Hamon) to just over 20%, just a smidgen behind the leading candidates (Le Pen and Macron, both tied at about 22%) and with a big chance of getting into the second round of the elections to face up against Le Pen. His platform's actually quite similar to Le Pen's in terms of its focus on attacking wealth inequality, established oligarchies, elites and the rollback of social and worker protections within France - the main difference is that he disavows the ethnic nationalism that Front National has adopted as its defining ideal. It's a fine line to tread, but he seems to have managed it - to the point where he can freely disparage the idea of unrestricted immigration into France while still maintaining an image of being a humanist and a decent chap free of bigotry more broadly. It also allows him to get away with the occasional nod to his more internationalist left-wing past (such as his associations with Venezuelan politics, for example).

He might not win the election or even make the second round, but he's clearly discovered a formula that has allowed him to leapfrog both the Thatcherite Fillon and the official SP candidate, Hamon, all while lacking the backing of either of France's two main parties and without much by way of outside funding to call upon. There' s a lesson in there for Labour - but I don't think they'll take it, and of course the simple fact of the matter is that Murdoch has far more power over the population of the UK than he does over that of France, so the likelihood of ordinary people voting on class lines is slimmer than in France, where only Le Figaro really pushes the right-wing media approach.
 
Labour has to understand what people want who voted Brexit i.e. be nationalistic, and start engaging in a form of 'Brit and proud' branding. It needn't influence policy greatly, its nationalistic fluff they need. Talk about the working British man and women and how we'll fight for them and improve their lives etc. Then be brave and say that Labour is pro EU because it will help British people keep jobs and pay for the NHS and good schools. To keep the nationalistic diatribe commit to cutting any useless immigration for outside the EU. If the person isn't useful to our nation, Labour will keep them out. Which is something the Tories have talked and talked about but never ever done! Labour has portray themselves as a strong party that represents the British people first and foremost, 'which is why we back trading and remaining in europe.' Plus attack Tories as entitled, moneyed, out of touch.

If they did that they could capture both sides of the brexit divide in my opinion. Election politics now is less about reality, and more about image, feeling and intent. Successful parties will get that image right above the content.

I think (hope) society is progressive enough that very few people directly blame/oppose the immigrants themselves. It's the industry that drives it - importing the sweatshop to proliferate the ponzi scheme of unsustainable population growth, fracturing communities in the process.

Labour need to make the economic arguments for moving away from the ideas of consumption and growth being good, and that financial services do any good. They should put a case for degrowth and a sustainable industrial strategy. The country shouldn't need mass/low-skill immigration because it should be consuming less, producing less (but useful things) and cutting working hours for all. That would be a proper fresh alternative to the disenfranchising neo-liberal consensus.
 
I think (hope) society is progressive enough that very few people directly blame/oppose the immigrants themselves. It's the industry that drives it - importing the sweatshop to proliferate the ponzi scheme of unsustainable population growth, fracturing communities in the process.

Labour need to make the economic arguments for moving away from the ideas of consumption and growth being good, and that financial services do any good. They should put a case for degrowth and a sustainable industrial strategy. The country shouldn't need mass/low-skill immigration because it should be consuming less, producing less (but useful things) and cutting working hours for all. That would be a proper fresh alternative to the disenfranchising neo-liberal consensus.

I suspect you're probably wrong on that point, sadly. LBJ famously (and typically bluntly) pointed out that, in the end, people can be divided on race far, far more easily than they can on class ("If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.")

I suspect that still holds true, even today - it will just take more rabble-rousing than it did in the 60's when LBJ went into the deep south and encountered the racism that prompted that remark. But the sentiment is admirable nonetheless.
 
I think (hope) society is progressive enough that very few people directly blame/oppose the immigrants themselves. It's the industry that drives it - importing the sweatshop to proliferate the ponzi scheme of unsustainable population growth, fracturing communities in the process.

Labour need to make the economic arguments for moving away from the ideas of consumption and growth being good, and that financial services do any good. They should put a case for degrowth and a sustainable industrial strategy. The country shouldn't need mass/low-skill immigration because it should be consuming less, producing less (but useful things) and cutting working hours for all. That would be a proper fresh alternative to the disenfranchising neo-liberal consensus.

Its not about blaming immigrants. Even those that are racist, don't think they are racist! People who vote for anti-immigration are often immigrants themselves. Rationality doesn't come into it. What people want is assertiveness. And to feel like global populations can't sweep in and take what was ours. That is one of the most fundamental human emotions. The tribe next door taking our cattle. The fear of "the other".

Labour faces a problem, in an Election about Brexit, which has immigration as a sidekick or undertone, they have no policy. Worse they look weak. People want assertiveness, strength and representation. If we're not British or English, what are we? Represent 'us' in the most simple inclusive way possible by celebrating our nationhood. How do you do that, how do you define 'us'? Refer to the other. And keep the other out!

If you're waiting for an operation or a doctors appointment and you can't get one for 2 months, while you see people who don't speak English, who probably don't work, waiting around you, is it bad to feel a sense of traditional Englishness or Britishness? Its a reality of an ageing population. With age comes an inherent racism. And we are all racist in the most simple form of the word - we categorise on crude things like colours. Going back to policy, is there anything wrong with stopping unless immigrants? People from outside the EU who don't contribute value to the UK? People who don't have skills, or assets that will enhance the UK. There probably is a lot wrong with it ethically, but Labour needs a hook. Something to show they can stand up for Britishness and this would be a solid start.

It sounds like your argument is for a French like state, where quality of life prevails over the economy. It's Gallic, it's not us. 52% have just voted to leave that kind of EU reality where quality of life, working hours directives etc, are a reality. It's a no no. You wouldn't back a party that wanted the value of your house to go down would you?

As to those that don't think strong leadership that focuses on the nation and the nations identity would be successful, where have you been the last few years!? Brexit - all about asserting the nation. Trump - all about putting the US first. LePenn as Mr Dubai outlines, as well as the rise of ukip. Isn't it clear!? People what strength, and some tangible sense of us and the nation.

People are tired of sound bites and pussy footing around saying what is politically correct. They'd far prefer someone who got something done, rather than worried about not offending anyone. Democracy's failing is that it stops professional traditional politicians from saying anything that might ostracise people. What you end up with is lowest common denominator, regurgitated pulp that bores the zhit out of most people, because no one wants to offend anyone and lose votes. This leads to a lack of vision, a lack of strength, and a lack of action. But people want vision, strength and action. They are crying out for it...which is why Trump got elected, despite him upsetting many people.

There is room for visionaries and freshness, its only a shame that this vacuum is being filled by movements that have some semi-fascist undertones. Should Labour tune into this? It has to. Because otherwise a) the conservatives are already on that bandwagon, without actually being fascist (tho many would disagree, personally I think they just about tip toe on the non-fascist side), and if they don't represent national people with a show of strength, others will, and it would be far far better for Labour to be running things than the likes of ukip!
 
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People that can't be bothered to read the manifestos shouldn't be allowed to vote. You elect an agenda for government. We aren't a presidential system.
Yes but in the real world they do vote so surely something is better than nothing

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If you're waiting for an operation or a doctors appointment and you can't get one for 2 months, while you see people who don't speak English, who probably don't work, waiting around you, is it bad to feel a sense of traditional Englishness or Britishness? Its a reality of an ageing population. With age comes an inherent racism. And we are all racist in the most simple form of the word - we categorise on crude things like colours. Going back to policy, is there anything wrong with stopping unless immigrants? People from outside the EU who don't contribute value to the UK? People who don't have skills, or assets that will enhance the UK. There probably is a lot wrong with it ethically, but Labour needs a hook. Something to show they can stand up for Britishness and this would be a solid start.

The problem with that lies in the fact that Labour has attracted a class of urban voter who realises that their doctor is at least 40% likely (I think - it was a stat from 2014, iirc) to be of minority ethnic origin - thus, it makes little sense to be angry about the people sitting in the waiting room when the GP is also somewhat unlikely to be a purebred Anglo-Saxon type.

If Labour wants to dump that urban voter class to try to seek the ignored, marginalized white British working-class vote, that's a *huge* gamble. I do feel that Labour has gone *much* too far in trying to dump itself of the perception of being the representative of the (majority white) working classes (in favour of appealing to middle-class urbanites), but there is a huge ethical and practical risk associated with a clean break from the strategy of the last two and half decades to go all out trying to capitalize on the fact (as you pointed out) that we're still hardwired to be xenophobic in many ways. That's a hook, in other words, that might fall very flat if the BME voters and associated urban middle-class voters flock to the Lib Dems/Tories and leave Labour without even the base it's usually relied on when things have gone sour.

It sounds like your argument is for a French like state, where quality of life prevails over the economy. It's Gallic, it's not us. 52% have just voted to leave that kind of EU reality where quality of life, working hours directives etc, are a reality. It's a no no. You wouldn't back a party that wanted the value of your house to go down would you?

Let me put it bluntly - what @Gutter Boy suggests is one of two paths that we can take in a world where automation will assuredly (and utterly relentlessly) kill off the idea of full employment over the next 25 years. That is the higher path - the one that essentially emphasizes a world with an acceptance of degrowth, less work, more time devoted to developing the social, creative and cognitive abilities that will mark the divide between humans and AI in the coming years, and a sustainable (or sustained) industrial sector that provides employment to people who can't be expected to cope with the realities of a world in which a machine can do any repetitive task you can do - white collar or blue collar, accounting or on the production line, fighter pilot or fruit picker. In that world, the population pyramid slowly inverting wouldn't be as much of an issue since the majority of economic output would be produced by automation anyway, which could then be put to use sustaining an ageing population without the need for immigration maintaining the 'ponzi scheme'.

The other road we can go down is one where no provisions or radical societal changes are made in the face of the incoming wave of automation, and society is put onto a road that will only lead to utter collapse as more and more people compete for fewer and fewer 'human-capable' jobs as an extremely tiny class of ultra-rich (who will own the automated means of production of the future) and a slightly larger class of technocrats and ultra-high-skilled technology professionals jointly eat the overwhelming share of national income.

Those are our two choices. We cannot compete with what's coming - it already takes us 15 years to train a child into a semi-functional adult in modern society, teaching him or her the basics of societal norms and understanding, mathematics and science. Actually, scratch that - it takes us even longer (up to four more years on top of the 15), because you are basically out of luck in modern society without an undergraduate degree. Now imagine how long it would take to train children to the (inconceivably) higher standards required to compete in terms of quantitative cognitive ability (involving a knowledge of mathematics and a scientific understanding that would put today's very brightest kids to shame) with an AI which can store and retrieve data much faster than you can, which can learn by itself (to a large extent), iterate and improve on its processes by itself (to a large extent) and essentially do any work not involving pure creative thinking or social understanding better, faster and more accurately than a human could ever hope to do it. And it is coming, assuredly so.

If you're a lawyer studying contracts, an accountant (of whatever type), a driver (however complicated your route), a logistics manager...your job is *already* under threat, no matter how white collar you think you are. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...-automation-pose-to-your-job/article30434394/). The future will be even more devastating to a society unprepared for it.

As to those that don't think strong leadership that focuses on the nation and the nations identity would be successful, where have you been the last few years!? Brexit - all about asserting the nation. Trump - all about putting the US first. LePenn as Mr Dubai outlines, as well as the rise of ukip. Isn't it clear!? People what strength, and some tangible sense of us and the nation.

This, I agree. This is the panic reaction to economic depression, widespread (and rapidly growing) inequality and the coming onset of automation (even if people don't realise it yet). It hasn't peaked yet, and we have yet to see the worst of it.
 
I was in meetings for most of yesterday so I missed this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39640804

Just wow. Is the man trying to make Labour completely unelectable in the South East? £70K is not a rich person's salary. Does anyone here do mortgages for a living? At a guess I'd say someone earning £70K would be able to borrow around £350K for a house? Ignoring London that's about a decent 2 or small 3 bed house in the South East. Not a rich person!

And a car? Unless that person wants to be spending all their money on BIK tax I imagine they'd be driving something in the range of a C Class or a 3 Series? NOT A RICH PERSON!

What fudging world do these people live in?
 
I was in meetings for most of yesterday so I missed this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39640804

Just wow. Is the man trying to make Labour completely unelectable in the South East? £70K is not a rich person's salary. Does anyone here do mortgages for a living? At a guess I'd say someone earning £70K would be able to borrow around £350K for a house? Ignoring London that's about a decent 2 or small 3 bed house in the South East. Not a rich person!

And a car? Unless that person wants to be spending all their money on BIK tax I imagine they'd be driving something in the range of a C Class or a 3 Series? NOT A RICH PERSON!

What fudging world do these people live in?
I agree totally that 70K is not rich but.... if you are on 70K you are richer than 95% of the country so relatively speaking.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax

He is writing off all of the South East with this stance though I agree - as I said earlier he must have a hell of an Echo chamber, not interacting with anyone outside his circle otherwise he wouldn't be so obtuse would he?
 
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I agree totally that 70K is not rich but.... if you are on 70K you are richer than 95% of the country so relatively speaking.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax

He is writing off all of the South East with this stance though I agree - as I said earlier he must have a hell of an Echo chamber, not interacting with anyone outside his circle otherwise he wouldn't be so obtuse would he?
I'm surprised the percentile is that high, but then it is across the whole country I guess.

The ridiculous thing is, there is genuinely ground to be gained with a message (not one I agree with) that the rich should pay more and the poor should earn more. That's something that has always resonated with voters. As you suggest, their echo chamber doesn't allow them to properly broadcast that message to the public.
 
Re percentile - that's how I keep the Mrs happy - we are Richer than 94% of the people out there what more do you want! now eat your Aldi food and shut up!
 
UKIP could never actually run anything

Sadly neither could this current Labour party.
I agree totally that 70K is not rich but.... if you are on 70K you are richer than 95% of the country so relatively speaking.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax

He is writing off all of the South East with this stance though I agree - as I said earlier he must have a hell of an Echo chamber, not interacting with anyone outside his circle otherwise he wouldn't be so obtuse would he?

It just smacks of a lack of innovation. Is that it? Is that all they can come up with? Unimaginative, and not going to really capture or inspire anyone.
 
I'm surprised the percentile is that high, but then it is across the whole country I guess.

The ridiculous thing is, there is genuinely ground to be gained with a message (not one I agree with) that the rich should pay more and the poor should earn more. That's something that has always resonated with voters. As you suggest, their echo chamber doesn't allow them to properly broadcast that message to the public.
And that is exactly the message Labour need to focus on - most voters earning over 70k will vote Tory anyway, but there is a middle ground between average salary earners (30kish) up to X (Labour have Decided that X = 70k) that will buy into the "inequality" line.

If (biiiiiiiiiig if) Labour have some policies to go along with it that help lower earners and reduce the cost of living/create opportunities for the 30-70k earners, they will get some extra votes.

70k is not a big salary in London/SE - but that is not because it's a bad salary, it's because of a high cost of living. When a salary over double the average wage cannot even buy you a studio flat, it tells it's own story.
 
If anything kills the margin I think it will be how the approval ratings fall across Labour's many, many safe seats.

If most of their approval drop is from safe seats then they'll probably keep most of what they have

Who knows, there is a long way to go yet. It looks like a walk in the park for the Tories but there are plenty of weaknesses for a half way decent politician to exploit. If Sturgeon was Labour leader, May wouldn't have risked the election.

Off topic from the rest of the conversation but it is a bit of a shame that the Scottish leaders are more competent politicians than their Westminster colleagues.
 
Who knows, there is a long way to go yet. It looks like a walk in the park for the Tories but there are plenty of weaknesses for a half way decent politician to exploit. If Sturgeon was Labour leader, May wouldn't have risked the election.

Off topic from the rest of the conversation but it is a bit of a shame that the Scottish leaders are more competent politicians than their Westminster colleagues.
That said, I think the Conservatives might get a few Scottish seats back on a Brexit/no independence platform.
 
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