Politics, politics, politics

[glasgowspur]

i'm not arguing the economics of the situation, as we've seen down here it's not simply a case of logic, it's a bit rich to make a case extolling the (erroneous imo) importance of sovereignty to leave a union and then not allowing a smaller group the same chance

do you think the scottish ref leave vote would have been higher had it been known then that the uk would be leaving the eu?

It may have made a difference to the margin but not the result.
As sturgeon is now finding out, although I suspect she knew it all along, there are some in her party who want independence not just from the UK but the EU as well.
The young who's head has turned by the SNP want to remain in the EU.
The irony is she has almost in the same trap as Cameron, and we all know how that ended for him.
personally I don't care about sovereignty, or who's making the decisions as long as they are sensible decisions. There is a sizable amount who say that it would be good to be independent and if we fail at least it was or failures, I suspect they think that right up to where they have put their x, then pragmatism kicks in.

 

[Baleforce]

It may have made a difference to the margin but not the result.
As sturgeon is now finding out, although I suspect she knew it all along, there are some in her party who want independence not just from the UK but the EU as well.
The young who's head has turned by the SNP want to remain in the EU.
The irony is she has almost in the same trap as Cameron, and we all know how that ended for him.
personally I don't care about sovereignty, or who's making the decisions as long as they are sensible decisions. There is a sizable amount who say that it would be good to be independent and if we fail at least it was or failures, I suspect they think that right up to where they have put their x, then pragmatism kicks in.

I don't think you are wrong about any of that, my general point is that, on the scale of "when should the Scots ask for a ref on devolution", then the point at which the UK is about to drag them down the rabbit hole (which 62% of the country voted against), is probably quite high on the list

secondly, the rhetoric coming out of downing street cuts both ways

 

[glasgowspur]

I don't think you are wrong about any of that, my general point is that, on the scale of "when should the Scots ask for a ref on devolution", then the point at which the UK is about to drag them down the rabbit hole (which 62% of the country voted against), is probably quite high on the list

secondly, the rhetoric coming out of downing street cuts both ways

If the nats had waited until the outcome if the brexit negotiations then fair enough, but at the moment a referendum would only be a choice between two complete unknowns.

Unfortunately politics now is all about the rhetoric.

 

[Baleforce]

If the nats had waited until the outcome if the brexit negotiations then fair enough, but at the moment a referendum would only be a choice between two complete unknowns.

Unfortunately politics now is all about the rhetoric.

true, this little gem from May made me laugh too,

"It wants to ask them to make a crucial decision without the necessary information.

"They would not know what the new partnership with the EU would look like, or what the alternative of an independent <nation> would be. It would simply not be fair."

yet...

 

[braineclipse]

Very good podcast on health care from Dan Carlin's common sense. Episode 314 - Unhealthy numbers.

http://www.dancarlin.com/common-sense-home-landing-page/

Key question being that of socialized medicine vs. the US private sector/free market version. Interesting for us on this side of the pond too and market forces and health care seems to pop up fairly often as a conversation.

 

[glasgowspur]

true, this little gem from May made me laugh too,



yet...

In fairness to May she didn't create the mess, she's only been brought in to deal with it.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It may have made a difference to the margin but not the result.
As sturgeon is now finding out, although I suspect she knew it all along, there are some in her party who want independence not just from the UK but the EU as well.
The young who's head has turned by the SNP want to remain in the EU.
The irony is she has almost in the same trap as Cameron, and we all know how that ended for him.
personally I don't care about sovereignty, or who's making the decisions as long as they are sensible decisions. There is a sizable amount who say that it would be good to be independent and if we fail at least it was or failures, I suspect they think that right up to where they have put their x, then pragmatism kicks in.

Scotland has got 5m population, natural resources and the best educational heritage in the world. It should be able to make its way in the world without England or the EU, just as well as Norway or New Zealand do.

I don't think there's any support in Scotland for having to suffer the Euro or Schengen. Brussels is a nice theoretical counterbalance to London, but the reality of having to embrace the EU wholeheartedly won't appeal to many Scots.

 

[Baleforce]

i don't think everyone considers schengen a thing to suffer

 

[glasgowspur]

Scotland has got 5m population, natural resources and the best educational heritage in the world. It should be able to make its way in the world without England or the EU, just as well as Norway or New Zealand do.

I don't think there's any support in Scotland for having to suffer the Euro or Schengen. Brussels is a nice theoretical counterbalance to London, but the reality of having to embrace the EU wholeheartedly won't appeal to many Scots.

I don't doubt that we could, but the circumstances are totally different.

And the bit you may have missed, we don't fudging want to.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I don't doubt that we could, but the circumstances are totally different.

And the bit you may have missed, we don't fudging want to.

only one way to find out if you want to in this post Brexit world....

 

[glasgowspur]

only one way to find out if you want to in this post Brexit world....

If we were like Norway or new Zealand as GB suggests we could be a success, but we're not. The circumstances are totally different.
We have no economic infrastructure, and without a currency or central bank we are pumped.
All of which is totally irrelevant, we don't want to leave. Listening to sturgeon and her ilk and thinking that she speaks for the majority is like reading this forum and thinking every spurs fan is like Simon Harris.

The bit sturgeon keeps leaving out is when before the last election she said "a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence".
Now she is using those votes as a mandate.

 

[r-u-s-x]

just addressing the "we don't want to leave" Most polls still have it near 50-50 - anecdotally I work with a few Jocks and there is a 50-50 split between the 8 I work with. What makes you so certain?




just googled and came back with this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/20/snp-manifesto-2015-key-points
EU referendum – proposal that there should be a double majority requirement, whereby each of the four constituent nations of the UK would have to vote for withdrawal before the UK as a whole could leave the EU.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

How lucky we are to have such a polymath as George Osbourne in this country after years of securing the financial future of the country he still has time to serve the good (rich) people of Tatton as their MP, advise the mega brains at BlackRock, be the driving force for the "Northern Power House" project and now edit the Evening Standard. Has their ever been such a colossus in our time?

 

[glasgowspur]

just addressing the "we don't want to leave" Most polls still have it near 50-50 - anecdotally I work with a few Jocks and there is a 50-50 split between the 8 I work with. What makes you so certain?




just googled and came back with this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/20/snp-manifesto-2015-key-points
EU referendum – proposal that there should be a double majority requirement, whereby each of the fo
ur constituent nations of the UK would have to vote for withdrawal before the UK as a whole could leave the EU.

Ah polls, they've proved every so reliable lately.
In Indy 1 Cameron gave them every possible advantage, from the date, to the question to who was and wasn't allowed to vote and they still couldn't get it over the line.
A sample size of 8 is hardly a good starting point, but I would say that I wouldn't trust anything any Scotsman told an Englishmam who called him a jock.....except maybe fudge off you English *********.
Whether it is deliberate by you (as in the English in general) or Scots being very touchy about how the English view us I will leave to you to decide, but you English can come across as patronising, condescending and arrogant. A bit of both most likely.

I have loads of English friends, who stay in various parts of England and I have to say I have no problem with the English. There's great people and baw bags everywhere, and trust me we have our fair share of the latter.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

How lucky we are to have such a polymath as George Osbourne in this country after years of securing the financial future of the country he still has time to serve the good (rich) people of Tatton as their MP, advise the mega brains at BlackRock, be the driving force for the "Northern Power House" project and now edit the Evening Standard. Has their ever been such a colossus in our time?

How is it allowed that he has all these jobs. Should be a rule against it, unfair for the people that elected him. He is short changing the tax payer.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

Ah polls, they've proved every so reliable lately.
In Indy 1 Cameron gave them every possible advantage, from the date, to the question to who was and wasn't allowed to vote and they still couldn't get it over the line.
A sample size of 8 is hardly a good starting point, but I would say that I wouldn't trust anything any Scotsman told an Englishmam who called him a jock.....except maybe fudge off you English *********.
Whether it is deliberate by you (as in the English in general) or Scots being very touchy about how the English view us I will leave to you to decide, but you English can come across as patronising, condescending and arrogant. A bit of both most likely.

I have loads of English friends, who stay in various parts of England and I have to say I have no problem with the English. There's great people and baw bags everywhere, and trust me we have our fair share of the latter.

You sure? I am arguing that the Scots should be allowed to decide whether they want a referendum (as per party they vote for and their manifestos) and the English shouldn't tell them what they can and can't do. But you go ahead and decide as I don't agree with you it's master English talking down to the poor little Scotchman.

Do you see the issue with questioning anecdotal point because of lack of sample size in the same Sentence as ignoring polls?

 

[glasgowspur]

You sure? I am arguing that the Scots should be allowed to decide whether they want a referendum (as per party they vote for and their manifestos) and the English shouldn't tell them what they can and can't do. But you go ahead and decide as I don't agree with you it's master English talking down to the poor little Scotchman.

Do you see the issue with questioning anecdotal point because of lack of sample size in the same Sentence as ignoring polls?

And I'm pointing out that we've had our opportunity to make the choice and made it.
I repeat, in April 2015 sturgeon said a vote for the SNP was not a vote for independence.
Now she is twisting that as a mandate.

I'm not saying that's it master Englishman, there is a perception of that up here, the SNP have made a party out it.
Personally I think that's total gonads.

I really don't see What your point is with the sample size and polls.

 

[the dza]

How lucky we are to have such a polymath as George Osbourne in this country after years of securing the financial future of the country he still has time to serve the good (rich) people of Tatton as their MP, advise the mega brains at BlackRock, be the driving force for the "Northern Power House" project and now edit the Evening Standard. Has their ever been such a colossus in our time?

From towel folder, to chancellor, on to editor of a newspaper -- the jury is still out on whether he was qualified for his first job, nevermind the others.

But know this dear plebs...if times are hard, if you should find yourself out of work or, even worse, of ill health or disability and unable to work, and if you should find yourself caught up in cuts to the money you need to eat...take a good look in the mirror. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, go out there and be born into a rich and well connected family, be old school chums with a prime minister and go out and get jobs that you do not deserve on the basis of your own abilities, but fall into due to the connections you have made in your life by virtue of being born upper class. If Gideon can do it, we all can!

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

From towel folder, to chancellor, on to editor of a newspaper -- the jury is still out on whether he was qualified for his first job, nevermind the others.

But know this dear plebs...if times are hard, if you should find yourself out of work or, even worse, of ill health or disability and unable to work, and if you should find yourself caught up in cuts to the money you need to eat...take a good look in the mirror. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, go out there and be born into a rich and well connected family, be old school chums with a prime minister and go out and get jobs that you do not deserve on the basis of your own abilities, but fall into due to the connections you have made in your life by virtue of being born upper class. If Gideon can do it, we all can!

It's the "British Dream". We need to be told what to do by our betters, as they were born to rule and we were born to toil, unless they can find someone from the third world to do the job for less.

 

[the dza]

It's the "British Dream". We need to be told what to do by our betters, as they were born to rule and we were born to toil, unless they can find someone from the third world to do the job for less.

Quite right too. I should doff me cap to Mr Osborne if I should ever sees him, but just don't try and sell me fruit in metric measures coz I will lead a revolution, oppressed as we are by these foreigners. Gawd save Mrs Saxe-Coburg.