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Politics, politics, politics

1. Turkey is nuts.

2. Ukraine is not part of NATO. Do we want a war with Russia over a non-NATO country? It's not like the first Gulf War where we'd go and fight an invading country that didn't have an air-force. Any kind of war with Russia and there's a risk of serious escalation. If that can be avoided, it should be.

If a NATO country is attacked by Russia (or anybody else) then I think 'we', along with the rest of NATO should do our part in defending that nation, to keep the integrity of NATO as a strong defensive bloc.

I am no fan of Putin and, infact, I am glad of the EU expanding eastwards, so as to provide a large buffer between 'us' and 'them'. But I am very wary of any major conflicts starting up between The West and Russia, I don't fancy World War III.
 
the dza said:
1. Turkey is nuts.

2. Ukraine is not part of NATO. Do we want a war with Russia over a non-NATO country? It's not like the first Gulf War where we'd go and fight an invading country that didn't have an air-force. Any kind of war with Russia and there's a risk of serious escalation. If that can be avoided, it should be.

If a NATO country is attacked by Russia (or anybody else) then I think 'we', along with the rest of NATO should do our part in defending that nation, to keep the integrity of NATO as a strong defensive bloc.

I am no fan of Putin and, infact, I am glad of the EU expanding eastwards, so as to provide a large buffer between 'us' and 'them'. But I am very wary of any major conflicts starting up between The West and Russia, I don't fancy World War III.
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So if a country is not a member of NATO we should just shucks guys that is to bad but we don't care about the people the children of these countries, we say to the bad guys in the world, go ahead gas them.

Call me a soft bleeding heart liberal if you like but that makes me sad but I guess also grateful that I live in a safe country.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
So if a country is not a member of NATO we should just shucks guys that is to bad but we don't care about the people the children of these countries, we say to the bad guys in the world, go ahead gas them.

Call me a soft bleeding heart liberal if you like but that makes me sad but I guess also grateful that I live in a safe country.
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It depends on what they can do to us or what our alliances are doesn't it? We in the West didn't stop Saddam gassing Kurds as we were allies at the time, iirc we sold him the phucking gas. We aren't going into Yemen to help them out, we are selling Saudi Arabia the bombs. There's still dead kids, the shrapnel says "Made in Britain."

Most of the nations we ever want to go and intervene in can't really do anything to us in retaliation, so it's mostly a free shot (I mentioned the first Gulf War, where we in the west slapped down Saddam when he went into Kuwait). But Russia is different, I wouldn't want us to attack any major military force unless it was absolutely necessary. There's nothing about the Ukraine situation that makes me think we as a nation should potentially put ourselves in harms way.
 
the dza said:
It depends on what they can do to us or what our alliances are doesn't it? We in the West didn't stop Saddam gassing Kurds as we were allies at the time, iirc we sold him the phucking gas. We aren't going into Yemen to help them out, we are selling Saudi Arabia the bombs. There's still dead kids, the shrapnel says "Made in Britain."

Most of the nations we ever want to go and intervene in can't really do anything to us in retaliation, so it's mostly a free shot (I mentioned the first Gulf War, where we in the west slapped down Saddam when he went into Kuwait). But Russia is different, I wouldn't want us to attack any major military force unless it was absolutely necessary. There's nothing about the Ukraine situation that makes me think we as a nation should potentially put ourselves in harms way.
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Quite agree, don't pick a fight unless you can win it, I could not care less about the Ukranians as long as the commies in Russia are ok and appeasing a madman who has total control of his country(putin) will probably work out ok, appeasing nutters usually does.
 
the dza said:
1. Turkey is nuts.

2. Ukraine is not part of NATO. Do we want a war with Russia over a non-NATO country? It's not like the first Gulf War where we'd go and fight an invading country that didn't have an air-force. Any kind of war with Russia and there's a risk of serious escalation. If that can be avoided, it should be.

If a NATO country is attacked by Russia (or anybody else) then I think 'we', along with the rest of NATO should do our part in defending that nation, to keep the integrity of NATO as a strong defensive bloc.

I am no fan of Putin and, infact, I am glad of the EU expanding eastwards, so as to provide a large buffer between 'us' and 'them'. But I am very wary of any major conflicts starting up between The West and Russia, I don't fancy World War III.
Click to expand...

Thing is Ukraine is extremely connected to Russia. Half the people have family who are Russian or travel into Russia, they speak Russian and have a deep history with Russia.

Yet US funding and EU hitching its skirt (but then not delivering) helped to overthrow the democratically elected pro Russian president. Funding of far right groups and Cold War like anti russia moves by the US behind the scenes undermined Ukraine being in Russia's pocket.

But imagine Russia fing around in Ireland or Mexico.

Ukraine had subsided energy from Russia. But the west of the country are pro Europe and the east pro Russia and call on Russia to look out for them. There is a genuine split and was civil war potential without imperial countries plying the 'big game' , which is what is occurring.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Quite agree, don't pick a fight unless you can win it, I could not care less about the Ukranians as long as the commies in Russia are ok and appeasing a madman who has total control of his country(putin) will probably work out ok, appeasing nutters usually does.
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Putting aside your sarcasm, you think we should go to war with Russia over the Ukraine? I think that's insane.

IMO, a peaceful solution might be to negotiate a split between east and west Ukraine, with the east aligning with Russia and the west with...well, The West. As far as the USA/NATO/EU are concerned, the Berlin wall will now have moved all the way into the middle of the Ukraine, which is quite a major victory.
 
You could draw parallels in Syria and Ukraine. Both countries screwed by other powers trying to influence the country behind the scenes.

Had Assad been left to stabilise the country or Ukraine kept it elected president, both countries would be in vastly better shape. Ukraine would have had another election and anyone would take Syria under Assad (a moderate prior to the Arab spring) over the destruction and killing.

Imo both have been perpetuated by external forces, imperialist powers destabilising force. Terribly sad. Trump is bonkers but he and most in intelligence circles understand that Ukraine was better off under Russia's wing, and Syrians with Assad and stability. How did rich countries fudge it up so badly?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Russia are right to worry.

The place is a shambles and the rest of the world look at all that territory and lick their lips.

All their outward bluster isn't going to protect them in the long run.
 
johnola said:
Russia are right to worry.

The place is a shambles and the rest of the world look at all that territory and lick their lips.

All their outward bluster isn't going to protect them in the long run.
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it will be the shed load of nukes that protect them in the long run
 
the dza said:
It depends on what they can do to us or what our alliances are doesn't it? We in the West didn't stop Saddam gassing Kurds as we were allies at the time, iirc we sold him the phucking gas. We aren't going into Yemen to help them out, we are selling Saudi Arabia the bombs. There's still dead kids, the shrapnel says "Made in Britain."

Most of the nations we ever want to go and intervene in can't really do anything to us in retaliation, so it's mostly a free shot (I mentioned the first Gulf War, where we in the west slapped down Saddam when he went into Kuwait). But Russia is different, I wouldn't want us to attack any major military force unless it was absolutely necessary. There's nothing about the Ukraine situation that makes me think we as a nation should potentially put ourselves in harms way.
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So doing some wrongs means we can't do other rights?

Seems a very naive view of the world to me.
 
scaramanga said:
So doing some wrongs means we can't do other rights?

Seems a very naive view of the world to me.
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I don't think kicking Saddam out of Kuwait was particularly a bad thing. I do think regime change when the vacuum is likely to be filled by bad people is a poor idea, the same as I think starting a war with a big military force over a country that doesn't really affect us (Russia---Ukraine) is also a bad idea.
 
the dza said:
I don't think kicking Saddam out of Kuwait was particularly a bad thing. I do think regime change when the vacuum is likely to be filled by bad people is a poor idea, the same as I think starting a war with a big military force over a country that doesn't really affect us (Russia---Ukraine) is also a bad idea.
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That's where the moral imperative lies.

If you only fight when it affects you then it's easy. The difficult (but right, IMO) thing to do is fighting just because someone needs you to - as in Ukraine.
 
scaramanga said:
That's where the moral imperative lies.

If you only fight when it affects you then it's easy. The difficult (but right, IMO) thing to do is fighting just because someone needs you to - as in Ukraine.
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So you would go to war with Russia over the Ukraine? That's insane imo and I would say that there is no chance of that actually happening.
 
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