Politics, politics, politics

[AuroRaman]

Re: European Elections, UKIP Tops British Polls

Whilst I'm mostly on the immigration = good side of this debate, it is a massive issue to voters:
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...YG-Archives-Pol-Trackers-Issues(2)-130514.pdf

I don't think that those 52% who consider it up there with the economy in importance think it's important because they want immigration to increase.

There's been a very impressive (and depressing) propaganda campaign against immigration in this country for a long time now and it's working incredibly well. When I used to doorstep for the Conservatives they gave me part of Portsmouth South (apparently my non-public schoolness suited the area well). Immigration wasn't just the first or the most important issue people were asking about, it was pretty much the only issue.

Those opinions and my inability to not call racist people cvnts was the end of my political career before it got started, but it is a huge issue - especially in areas that don't have the experience/advantage of previous immigration that London has.

Hmmm ok. Perhaps I am confusing what people think with actual facts, and could be that living in the London bubble distorts what is happening elsewhere in the country in terms of voter views? I just don't know anyone personally that has an issue with immigration, regardless of living in London or not. Agree about the propaganda campaign comments.

 

[SteveAWOL]

No wonder so many voters have such a distorted view on immigration when millions of them are reading headlines like this on a daily basis...

 

[milo]

Re: European Elections, UKIP Tops British Polls

There are massive benefits for the UK from immigration of a select group of people who bring to the table things we don't have in this country at this moment in time.

But for example, I live in Bradford. Bradford had mass immigration of a large number of poorly educated workers from some of the poorest regions of Pakistan. About 70,000-100,000. They were invited here by some of the mill owners to prop up their businesses as they fell down the toilet. The problem was that they sent most of their money back home to Pakistan. They continue to do so to this day.

The Pakistani community in Bradford has never fully integrated and send most of the money they make (which isn't a lot as they remain one of the poorest communities in the UK, with a large percentage below the poverty line) back to Pakistan. They marry their kids off to cousins from Pakistan as a 'leg-up', normally to poor relations who are then brought over here with nothing. They have mostly remained in the same areas of Bradford in which they arrived, don't regard themselves as British, don't speak English and contribute very little to the local economy. Infact, these areas of Bradford are some of the most deprived areas in the whole UK with mass socio-health issues, civil unrest and distrust.

You see many communities such as this in the UK, where a large influx of immigrants have remained in very poor, isolated communities that are not much better off than when they first arrived. Too many similar people have allowed to arrive.

In my job most of the people I investigate and convict are from these communities. Fraud is rife and linked to drug trafficking, organised gangs and the funding of foreign terrorist organisations.

You really need to do my job to see the massive amount of resource this country puts into the problems some of the past immigration policies have created.

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If you studied demographics, you will know that within a few generations, immigrants birth rates quickly conform to the national average. So this isn't a valid argument for immigration, particularly since those with larger birth-rates tend to very poor immigrants that actually put a strain on the local economies rather than contribute towards them.

Thanks for the response. We already have control of immigration from outside of the EU, so leaving it would not have an impact on the Pakistani community in Bradford. What about the recent immigrants from the EU? Do you see any benefits to the country from that?

 

[LutonSpurs]

Re: European Elections, UKIP Tops British Polls

There are massive benefits for the UK from immigration of a select group of people who bring to the table things we don't have in this country at this moment in time.

But for example, I live in Bradford. Bradford had mass immigration of a large number of poorly educated workers from some of the poorest regions of Pakistan. About 70,000-100,000. They were invited here by some of the mill owners to prop up their businesses as they fell down the toilet. The problem was that they sent most of their money back home to Pakistan. They continue to do so to this day.

The Pakistani community in Bradford has never fully integrated and send most of the money they make (which isn't a lot as they remain one of the poorest communities in the UK, with a large percentage below the poverty line) back to Pakistan. They marry their kids off to cousins from Pakistan as a 'leg-up', normally to poor relations who are then brought over here with nothing. They have mostly remained in the same areas of Bradford in which they arrived, don't regard themselves as British, don't speak English and contribute very little to the local economy. Infact, these areas of Bradford are some of the most deprived areas in the whole UK with mass socio-health issues, civil unrest and distrust.

You see many communities such as this in the UK, where a large influx of immigrants have remained in very poor, isolated communities that are not much better off than when they first arrived. Too many similar people have allowed to arrive.

In my job most of the people I investigate and convict are from these communities. Fraud is rife and linked to drug trafficking, organised gangs and the funding of foreign terrorist organisations.

You really need to do my job to see the massive amount of resource this country puts into the problems some of the past immigration policies have created.

- - - Updated - - -



If you studied demographics, you will know that within a few generations, immigrants birth rates quickly conform to the national average. So this isn't a valid argument for immigration, particularly since those with larger birth-rates tend to very poor immigrants that actually put a strain on the local economies rather than contribute towards them.

NWND, I was born around the corner from Bradford, I still have loads of family up there. I am also Pakistani. Next time I come down I will drop you a message and you can meet my friends and relatives from there who are nothing like what you describe. They are successful, have 2 kids at the most, don't send any money back home and have not married their cousins, siblings or goats. I promise you.

 

[NWND]

NWND, I was born around the corner from Bradford, I still have loads of family up there. I am also Pakistani. Next time I come down I will drop you a message and you can meet my friends and relatives from there who are nothing like what you describe. They are successful, have 2 kids at the most, don't send any money back home and have not married their cousins, siblings or goats. I promise you.

Of course they're not all like that. But a lot are.

Bradford is unfortunately a snap-shot of what happens if your immigration policy goes drastically wrong, at least on a regional level.

It is a divided city of segregated communities. The Pakistani community there aren't graduates or educated people from Islamibad and Lahore. They're labourers, poorly educated from the tribal regions. Very different to the community in London, or even Birmingham.

They're largely (massively?) not integrated and poverty and crime unfortunately dog the community which still lives largely in the most deprived parts of the city.

Bradford NHS estimates 60% of marriages in the community follow the practice of marriage to a first cousin explaining the drastically high birth defect and child death rate in the region:

http://m.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk..._of_children_in_the_Bradford_district/?ref=mr

The local authority have been desperately trying to change the cycle of underachievement among the Pakistani community in schools but the schools are often in deprived areas and the kids often face challenges from back home to not pay too much attention to western education and learn the Qur'an instead. Its a big problem that has partly trapped the community in a cycle of poverty.

On a lighter note one of my mates who is British-Pakistani (but like your family does none of the above) remarked that he was ****ed off at the amount of Polish people living near him now and they'd even opened a Polish supermarket in place of the old Al Halal one that closed down. Who knows, he might end up voting UKIP.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Of course they're not all like that. But a lot are.

Bradford is unfortunately a snap-shot of what happens if your immigration policy goes drastically wrong, at least on a regional level.

It is a divided city of segregated communities. The Pakistani community there aren't graduates or educated people from Islamibad and Lahore. They're labourers, poorly educated from the tribal regions. Very different to the community in London, or even Birmingham.

They're largely (massively?) not integrated and poverty and crime unfortunately dog the community which still lives largely in the most deprived parts of the city.

Bradford NHS estimates 60% of marriages in the community follow the practice of marriage to a first cousin explaining the drastically high birth defect and child death rate in the region:

http://m.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk..._of_children_in_the_Bradford_district/?ref=mr

The local authority have been desperately trying to change the cycle of underachievement among the Pakistani community in schools but the schools are often in deprived areas and the kids often face challenges from back home to not pay too much attention to western education and learn the Qur'an instead. Its a big problem that has partly trapped the community in a cycle of poverty.

On a lighter note one of my mates who is British-Pakistani (but like your family does none of the above) remarked that he was ****ed off at the amount of Polish people living near him now and they'd even opened a Polish supermarket in place of the old Al Halal one that closed down. Who knows, he might end up voting UKIP.

You are generalising and talking about a Bradford which I saw 15-20 years ago. Not anymore. Really mate.

Also would you say Liverpool is also an example of failed migration with all the people there who don't have jobs and lack literacy? And yes I know about the Irish factor.

 

[NWND]

You are generalising and talking about a Bradford which I saw 15-20 years ago. Not anymore. Really mate.

Also would you say Liverpool is also an example of failed migration with all the people there who don't have jobs and lack literacy? And yes I know about the Irish factor.

I admit I'm generalizing but it is still true of a lot of the community and it's that part of the community that is the problem not the part that are integrated within British society, have good jobs and contribute. I'm not being funny but given your posts on here and how you've described your family from 'up norf' it doesn't sound like they're really part of the issues I'm talking about. You and they are well educated and integrated, when you go visit them I doubt it will be an eye opening experience of some of the socio-economic issues facing Bradford. Things HAVE improved since the riots but not as much as people would like, not by a long shot.

Luckily there are some good people in the community and in the local authority trying to work really hard to encourage integration and tackle poverty and encourage education and betterment for the whole city

 

[NWND]

You are generalising and talking about a Bradford which I saw 15-20 years ago. Not anymore. Really mate.

Also would you say Liverpool is also an example of failed migration with all the people there who don't have jobs and lack literacy? And yes I know about the Irish factor.

Well I'd say in your context Glasgow and Northern Ireland are more telling examples of failed migration leading to civil unrest and socio-economic problems.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Re: European Elections, UKIP Tops British Polls

and have not married their cousins, siblings or goats. I promise you.

Not interested then.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I would pay good money to see someone marry a goat, I already pay good money to see women fcuk animals online haha

 

[glorygloryeze]

Well I'd say in your context Glasgow and Northern Ireland are more telling examples of failed migration leading to civil unrest and socio-economic problems.

Interesting. Why do you say Glasgow and Northern Ireland are examples of failed migration.
Also, can you give examples of 'non-failed' migration, if you know what i mean?

 

[LutonSpurs]

Re: European Elections, UKIP Tops British Polls

Not interested then.

Haha. You need to find this bloke. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4748292.stm

 

[scaramanga]

You are generalising and talking about a Bradford which I saw 15-20 years ago. Not anymore. Really mate.

Also would you say Liverpool is also an example of failed migration with all the people there who don't have jobs and lack literacy? And yes I know about the Irish factor.

Liverpool is the very definition of fail.

 

[NWND]

Interesting. Why do you say Glasgow and Northern Ireland are examples of failed migration.
Also, can you give examples of 'non-failed' migration, if you know what i mean?

I think mass immigration of one set of peoples almost always fails and leads to non-integrated segregated communities. I think humans are naturally tribal and aggressive. In my opinion, a small number of immigrants that are prepared to integrate and adapt to their surroundings is fine. A large number from the same background will almost always stick to their own and put up protective barriers and be seen as an unwelcome threat by locals.

Glasgow & Northern Ireland = large influx of Irish into the UK and large influx of British into Ireland = sectarian violence, divided communities and decades worth of s*** costing the tax payer millions.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think mass immigration of one set of peoples almost always fails and leads to non-integrated segregated communities. I think humans are naturally tribal and aggressive. A large number from the same background will almost always stick to their own and put up protective barriers and be seen as an unwelcome threat by locals.

My dad has strong views on this and is the most non racist person I have known in my life, he can't stand it so if I don't explain it that well its not a reflection on him its my conversion of his view.

But basically I live in an area that is historically HUGELY territorial and in the past when you could say even as recent as the mid 00s the only territorial activity was if you was from Grays, Tilbury, Ockendon, Chadwell, Aveley etc (I'm from Thurrock a huge historic BNP, UKIP target) but recently the large number or mass immigration into the area as seen that territorial view change into unity and territorial/tribal feeling towards those that have come into the area. And it comes down to the sheer volume in such a short space of time which scares people who in some cases have lived up to 70 years of a certain way and know no difference and the change is literally one of a pure culture shock.

The thing is people are not deaf or blind, the influx is visible and people can't cope with that concept, rightly or wrongly and they believe the whole essence of what they know, believe and have grown up with is compromised.

I feel uneasy writing this in the way it may come over but I went to secondary school in Grays, Essex between 1993-1998 and we had one Black Kid in our School and now the same school I would say has 100-150 which has come about in the last 5 years, and its a visual change and wrongly or rightly people see it and it makes the feeling uneasy on, as I have said, people that have known no difference in a lifetime, I am not saying racist tension but the feeling that society has changed with no integration. The proof on this being the tactics in my are employed by parties such as the BNP and UKip to aggravate the feeling even more.

I suppose writing this I have lost the overall point I have wanted to make but I suppose its just that I understand the feeling, I'm not saying immigration is wrong but mass immigration without a plan to integrate society is careless and naive in belief that it doesn't cause local tension. I think the current way its handled is typically NIMBY by the government/governments that have overseen it.

 

[scaramanga]

I think mass immigration of one set of peoples almost always fails and leads to non-integrated segregated communities. I think humans are naturally tribal and aggressive. In my opinion, a small number of immigrants that are prepared to integrate and adapt to their surroundings is fine. A large number from the same background will almost always stick to their own and put up protective barriers and be seen as an unwelcome threat by locals.

Glasgow & Northern Ireland = large influx of Irish into the UK and large influx of British into Ireland = sectarian violence, divided communities and decades worth of s*** costing the tax payer millions.

It's not immigration that's the problem, it's NuLab's enforced multiculturalism.

 

[THFC]

This sounds like the type of discussion where you will be screamed down as a racist. I hope I am wrong, as this is a topic that many have issues with. Failure to address concerns properly will add fuel to the far right in my opinion. People need to get over the fact that these dicussions are not a personal attacks on religions or races and immediately put up a barrier of "well look at Liverpool/Glasgow' etc, that is sidestepping the issues as it is long established the **** hole nature of those cities. Whereas make a comment about Bradford for example, though I am also talking from past experiences, then it immediately it becomes a racial or religious slant from certain posters/people, aimed at those who are interested in the issues affecting the UK.

And for what it's worth, it is very easy to say "well I don't experience the effects of immigration in this way" for example in respect of wages being forced downwards, or as stated above, but this is a national issue and is something that will have long lasting effects on our nation, so to have such a short sighted view is in my opinion outdated Some may call it sticking head in sand, call it what you will, but ignoring it will exacerbate long term for the backbone of society who have demanded it be addressed

 

[milo]

It's not immigration that's the problem, it's NuLab's enforced multiculturalism.

I don't think that there is a major issue with integration in this country and certainly not when compared to many others. I also think that by and large different ethnic groups live together with relatively little friction. That is not to say that there isn't more that we can do or that there are never any problems but I think that we need a sense of proportion when discussing this.

 

[milo]

Glasgow & Northern Ireland = large influx of Irish into the UK and large influx of British into Ireland = sectarian violence, divided communities and decades worth of s*** costing the tax payer millions.

I think that you are reaching a bit if you are having to use Irish immigration into Glasgow in the early 19 century and a wider sectarian problem as examples against immigration particularly when Ireland was part of the UK at the time.

 

[LutonSpurs]

This sounds like the type of discussion where you will be screamed down as a racist. I hope I am wrong, as this is a topic that many have issues with. Failure to address concerns properly will add fuel to the far right in my opinion. People need to get over the fact that these dicussions are not a personal attacks on religions or races and immediately put up a barrier of "well look at Liverpool/Glasgow' etc, that is sidestepping the issues as it is long established the **** hole nature of those cities. Whereas make a comment about Bradford for example, though I am also talking from past experiences, then it immediately it becomes a racial or religious slant from certain posters/people, aimed at those who are interested in the issues affecting the UK.

And for what it's worth, it is very easy to say "well I don't experience the effects of immigration in this way" for example in respect of wages being forced downwards, or as stated above, but this is a national issue and is something that will have long lasting effects on our nation, so to have such a short sighted view is in my opinion outdated Some may call it sticking head in sand, call it what you will, but ignoring it will exacerbate long term for the backbone of society who have demanded it be addressed

It hasn't been made in to a racial issue by anyone here. I think NWND has genuine concerns about Bradford and I can't see any racism in his posts.

I think immigration is a buzzword right now. It's being made to sound like it is a bad thing but statistically it is worth looking at what JD Portes has written in the Times today or yesterday. A load of the stats used by Cameron and UKIP are BS.

I really think there needs to be a fact based analysis on the perceptions people have around what harm immigration has on the country.

Also are my 3rd generation children and me as a 2nd generation immigrant still considered immigrants? Who defines this? When do they become indigenous? And what the fek are British Values? Is there a concise definition for three values?