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Politics, politics, politics

LutonSpurs said:
When we moved to Luton in the 80s from the north the area I live in was mixed. White people, Asians and Caribbean people. Slowly but surely the white people have moved away. Many reasons for this and that's a big discussion in itself. But they have sold up and moved to outskirts of Luton or villages. My kids now have less chance of integrating and only go to school with 98% migrant kids. Fortunately I can afford to move to a more affluent area that has a more mixed area so my kids can grow up knowing people from all sorts of backgrounds. Not all can.

My main point is that integration is two way. You can't mix it with people when they don't want to. You have migrants who don't want to integrate and you get "indigenous" folk who don't want to either. Whose fault is it?
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BOOM. The phenomenan of 'white flight'. You're totally right. This is why large-scale immigration does not work. This is a totally non-fact based estimate (BTW) but i'd honestly say if you took any sample of any group of humans, about 60-80% would not want to mix with anyone different. About another 30-15% would do so, but might find it difficult. The rest are those that actively embrace differences.

It even goes down to friends level. I have a small circle of friends, who share my interests, I feel comfortable with and get on with. The more different someone is to you the more awkward you generally feel around them.

All over the country there is proof that large-scale immigration does not work. Integration of a large number of people of a different background in the same area with a much larger number of people that already live there will take decades, or even maybe prove to be impossible.
 
I saw that programme Young, White and Angry last night and although it was a concentrated section of both sides it was heart-breaking to see.

On one side you had far right scumbags out to cause trouble because football violence has all but been cleaned up, then on the other side Muslim brotherhoods on the streets on Regents park proclaiming that the "children of your children will be Muslim".

As I say, I know it was only a concentrated snap shot of the UK but it was so sad to see.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I saw that programme Young, White and Angry last night and although it was a concentrated section of both sides it was heart-breaking to see.

On one side you had far right scumbags out to cause trouble because football violence has all but been cleaned up, then on the other side Muslim brotherhoods on the streets on Regents park proclaiming that the "children of your children will be Muslim".

As I say, I know it was only a concentrated snap shot of the UK but it was so sad to see.
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They were not allowed to march in Brighton before the greens came to power. Now the greens let them I think because in the counter demo mob the are a lot of green supporters who want a fight.

I am not defending the far right, they are scum. But why let them march? why not ban it like other towns do. It is may day bank holiday and Brighton is a tourist town, but it is dead because people are scared to come down, families and people that actually spend money.

This and the 20 mile speed limit are why I hate the greens, completely unfit to govern even at a local level.
 
milo said:
I've always seen it as being recent immigrants will often move to places that are cheap and move out as they can afford to.

I lived in the east end in the late nineties early 2000s and you saw a lot of older white families moving out to Essex mainly because they had bought their council flat and it was worth a lot more than when they bought it and they thought that they could get a better standard of living further out.

If you look at the history of immigration into the east end of London you see that each grouping settles there and then moves on from the Huguenots (hello Mr Farage), through the Jews, Bangladeshis and more recently Somalis.
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This it really, immigrants come here largely to improve their lot same as everyone else. As people move up the food chain they move out.
The issue is the people, immigrants or not, who are not willing to make the effort to move up the chain. Society is there to help anyone who isn't ABLE to move up the chain.
I don't know what Liverpool is like but I've lived in Glasgow all my life and the biggest problem is that the issues between the two main divergent cultures are papered over because it's bad publicity.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
glasgowspur said:
This it really, immigrants come here largely to improve their lot same as everyone else. As people move up the food chain they move out.
The issue is the people, immigrants or not, who are not willing to make the effort to move up the chain. Society is there to help anyone who isn't ABLE to move up the chain.
I don't know what Liverpool is like but I've lived in Glasgow all my life and the biggest problem is that the issues between the two main divergent cultures are papered over because it's bad publicity.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
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Who are these main divergent cultures?
Is it simply Irish Catholic vs Scottish Protestant, as most media cliam it to be or is much more nuanced/deeper than that?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Who are these main divergent cultures?
Is it simply Irish Catholic vs Scottish Protestant, as most media cliam it to be or is much more nuanced/deeper than that?
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Got it in one. It's insidious here. I've seen lifelong friends almost come to blows over it. Funny thing is as neither actually attends church or could be called religious in any way it's purely inbred hatred.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
glasgowspur said:
Got it in one. It's insidious here. I've seen lifelong friends almost come to blows over it. Funny thing is as neither actually attends church or could be called religious in any way it's purely inbred hatred.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
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I see. Apart from when at school stage, how do people tell if one is Catholic or Protestant? Is it by surname? Or simply whether you support Rangers or Celtic lol?
 
glasgowspur said:
The issue is the people, immigrants or not, who are not willing to make the effort to move up the chain. Society is there to help anyone who isn't ABLE to move up the chain.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
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I will always rightly or wrongly link my theory on how immigration should be run to Dubai as I worked there. Immigration and earning a living only to leave the country with your earnings was always rife, some of it in the 90 early 00s was fault of the government as the restrictions to buying and staying were too great to overcome.

That said they have it almost spot on, or as close as you are going to get. Yep come, earn a living, earn a bloody good living but you have to have a job or sponsor to do so, if you lose said job off you trot unless you find alternative.

If as an immigrant you are unable to support your stay, then you are shown the door and sorry for being heartless but I agree with that there stance. In UK terms and as touched on we have enough of our own problems with supporting people that are idle or unfortunately in need that to deal with this problem magnified means we just cruise over it and don't make any dent on improvement.
 
scaramanga said:
Wow, that's really ****ing scary. And departed. And mental.

I honestly cannot believe people vote for these dangerous cretins.
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Wow, everyone should take a look at this. I've never paid attention to a Green Party manifesto before :eek:
 
You are almost exclusively labeled by the team you support. I have a "Catholic" sounding name but I'm not. I went to what is referred to as a Protestant school even though in Scotland there is only nondenominational or Catholic schools here (a big bugbear of mine that one) so it becomes what team do you support?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
Grays_1890 said:
I will always rightly or wrongly link my theory on how immigration should be run to Dubai as I worked there. Immigration and earning a living only to leave the country with your earnings was always rife, some of it in the 90 early 00s was fault of the government as the restrictions to buying and staying were too great to overcome.

That said they have it almost spot on, or as close as you are going to get. Yep come, earn a living, earn a bloody good living but you have to have a job or sponsor to do so, if you lose said job off you trot unless you find alternative.

If as an immigrant you are unable to support your stay, then you are shown the door and sorry for being heartless but I agree with that there stance. In UK terms and as touched on we have enough of our own problems with supporting people that are idle or unfortunately in need that to deal with this problem magnified means we just cruise over it and don't make any dent on improvement.
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That's very good, I didn't know that.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
Grays_1890 said:
I will always rightly or wrongly link my theory on how immigration should be run to Dubai as I worked there. Immigration and earning a living only to leave the country with your earnings was always rife, some of it in the 90 early 00s was fault of the government as the restrictions to buying and staying were too great to overcome.

That said they have it almost spot on, or as close as you are going to get. Yep come, earn a living, earn a bloody good living but you have to have a job or sponsor to do so, if you lose said job off you trot unless you find alternative.

If as an immigrant you are unable to support your stay, then you are shown the door and sorry for being heartless but I agree with that there stance. In UK terms and as touched on we have enough of our own problems with supporting people that are idle or unfortunately in need that to deal with this problem magnified means we just cruise over it and don't make any dent on improvement.
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I think it's easy to ay all that; but for one thing Dubai is a tiny small nation in comparison that has a totally difefrent type of Economy and history. The social history is likely to be far simpler than the UK's as well. I doubt the economy and the way it functions in the UK (which itself has big issues imo) would be able to function with similar rules to Dubai (or even Australia imo). Big businesses from overseas would likely find that system too unweidly to invest their resources atm.

Deep down, we both know that worklessness amongst Immigrants is just another stick to use by those who will find any reason possible: if immigrants are all working it would be 'they come here take our jobs etc'

However, any country SHOULD be able to put into place whatever Immigration policy they want to. Any really Sovereign country, that is. If it interdependent on other countries or Transnational co-operative then they almost forfiet that right....
 
scaramanga said:
My use if the term (possibly incorrectly) is about Labour's intent for groups not to integrate. In fact, as the very opposite if integration. Rate of immigration was merely the method used to cause that lack of integration.

This has been discovered to be a clear tactic by Labour, I can only assume to try and increase their own voter base.
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Another example of how Labour is solely responsible for every ill facing Britain courtesy of Scara. How does encouraging migrants not to integrate widen labour's voter base?
 
glorygloryeze said:
I think it's easy to ay all that; but for one thing Dubai is a tiny small nation in comparison that has a totally difefrent type of Economy and history. The social history is likely to be far simpler than the UK's as well. I doubt the economy and the way it functions in the UK (which itself has big issues imo) would be able to function with similar rules to Dubai (or even Australia imo). Big businesses from overseas would likely find that system too unweidly to invest their resources atm.

Deep down, we both know that worklessness amongst Immigrants is just another stick to use by those who will find any reason possible: if immigrants are all working it would be 'they come here take our jobs etc'

However, any country SHOULD be able to put into place whatever Immigration policy they want to. Any really Sovereign country, that is. If it interdependent on other countries or Transnational co-operative then they almost forfiet that right....
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That is pretty much how it works here for immigrants from outside of the EU now unless you have family here.

I saw this before Christmas and thought that it did a good job of explaining something quite complex in a simple way

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/what-would-happen-if-paddington-bear-tried-to-immigrate-to-t?
 
glorygloryeze said:
I think it's easy to ay all that; but for one thing Dubai is a tiny small nation in comparison that has a totally difefrent type of Economy and history. The social history is likely to be far simpler than the UK's as well. I doubt the economy and the way it functions in the UK (which itself has big issues imo) would be able to function with similar rules to Dubai (or even Australia imo). Big businesses from overseas would likely find that system too unweidly to invest their resources atm.

Deep down, we both know that worklessness amongst Immigrants is just another stick to use by those who will find any reason possible: if immigrants are all working it would be 'they come here take our jobs etc'

However, any country SHOULD be able to put into place whatever Immigration policy they want to. Any really Sovereign country, that is. If it interdependent on other countries or Transnational co-operative then they almost forfiet that right....
Click to expand...

Yeh I agree and the size of the country and infancy of its immigration policy means they started from small numbers in the 80s and kept a tally from then on, far easier, it would be impossible for us to follow suit.

However I still agree it is, in my opinion the correct way for many reasons. For a start I was an immigrant and found it better for me to be there than here at the time and I managed to abide by those rules, it also offers HUGE levels of safety when it comes to knowing who is exactly in and out of the country.

As for big businesses, I think that's open and shut argument. Dubai will never have an economy like anywhere else due to their limited level of industry so in that case no, Businesses would find the system hard. That said, hotels which are made up of, in some cases 100% immigrants manage to run successfully in the countries main economic industry. And trust me that carries huge headaches in terms of paperwork but for some hotels that have over 1000 staff its doable so if big businesses wanted they could, I would say its the lack of industry that multinationals off being there not immigration law.
 
scaramanga said:
This would suggest otherwise:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...K-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
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I don't doubt that there was a policy to encourage immigration into the country. I think that the primary reason for this was to fill gaps in the employment market but I think that the government should have been open about this and explained its reasons.

My argument was that I do not think that it was the intention of multiculturalism to hinder integration. I think that its aim was to make concessions to minority groups to make integration easier. I think that there is a completely valid argument to be had around how successful this policy was and whether other approaches are better.
 
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