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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Baleforce said:
They are not active terrorists (yet), Hezbollah and the houthi's are.
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One man's terrorist in another's freedom fighter. Israel are the occupying force in all this. Hezbollah are also a political party who are part of Lebanon's democratic government. No different to Otzma Yehudit and co.
 
SpurMeUp said:
They are viable and not profound. They won’t achieve a change to wealth distribution for example. Or the ethics of modern societies. To me these things are a basic baseline. The minimum. And they won’t make meaningful changes, certainly won’t make a dent in degrowth or scratch the surface of the ills of capitalism that you identify…by proxy.

Why communism didn’t succeed is a complex question, and there isn’t one simple reason but of course many. Not least is a centralised economy. How could government run a whole economy with all of the myriad detail? Buying, manufacturing and selling everything from screws to jeans to farming equipment? You need local (greedy) actors to make an economy work well. Civil servants are not hungry or greedy in an entrepreneurial sense (which is what makes an economy tick with efficiency and innovation). Instead the greed shows itself in corruption and kleptocracy.

All that said there are a lot of things that were much more viable within Marxism and even communism, that we should learn from. Within communist societies people did very much believe the n the points you raise below, for example. And there was a greater collective ethic. The rest of the system - economy and elitism of the party - didn’t support the ethics ultimately but they were there. Along with education and many other strong social endeavours.



Couldn’t agree more. As someone once said: if you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
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Good discussion mate, we agree on some things, not on others, and it's been fun to get alternate opinions. Nice one.
 
Gutter Boy said:
One man's terrorist in another's freedom fighter. Israel are the occupying force in all this. Hezbollah are also a political party who are part of Lebanon's democratic government. No different to Otzma Yehudit and co.
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My opinion on this is based on who I think are terrorists, and in the last couple of weeks, they have been getting slammed, I'm all for it.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
I read them all.

The retorts are not snappy, I'm a mirror throwing back hypocrisy on the loons on here.
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A certain age EVERYONE is a hypocrite in some way whether they like it or not. Me. You. Them. That's getting older. p.s. I thought you said in a post recently that you only read the first couple of lines, or were you referring to a link I had posted?
 
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thfcsteff said:
A certain age EVERYONE is a hypocrite in some way whether they like it or not. Me. You. Them. That's getting older. p.s. I thought you said in a post recently that you only read the first couple of lines, or were you referring to a link I had posted?
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Yeah I read all the posts, the first couple if lines.
 
Kompakted said:
The VIP lane excluded existing suppliers as existing suppliers didn't need to go through a procurement process - if they were willing to keep supplying they just kept on supplying. The VIP lane was set up as a lot of existing suppliers were unable or unwilling to continue supplying at all or at the volume required, and given the lack of time to put new suppliers through proper tender processes, the safest bet was suppliers owned by those people in government or Westminster could vouch for as being reliable.

You're saying I'm defending the indefensible but as I keep going back to, what is it that all of you people wanted the government to do, just stick to the normal, legally and morally water-tight tender and procurement process. fully vet every proposed supplier of PPE to a rigorous standard and enter into strong negotiations on price, calling the bluff one "take it leave it, the French will have it if you won't" ultimatums?
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Are you just going to ignore legal judgement on the vip procurement lanes, the findings of the national audit office and subsequent independent analysis that has identified mutiple red flags for corruption on over £15b of ppe contracts?

It’s no good getting orders in quick of the suppliers cannot provide compliant ppe equipment as was the case with many vip lane suppliers.

And the government excluded existing suppliers who did not have contract agreements with the civil service, instead favouring suppliers with no experience or indeed prior operating history at all.

I’m sorry we fundamentally disagree on this issue so there is nothing more to debate.
 
Crab.C.Nesbitt said:
Are you just going to ignore legal judgement on the vip procurement lanes, the findings of the national audit office and subsequent independent analysis that has identified multiple red flags for corruption on over £15b of ppe contracts?

It’s no good getting orders in quick of the suppliers cannot provide compliant ppe equipment as was the case with many vip lane suppliers.

And the government excluded existing suppliers who did not have contract agreements with the civil service, instead favouring suppliers with no experience or indeed prior operating history at all.

I’m sorry we fundamentally disagree on this issue so there is nothing more to debate.
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And Labour did the same with PPI that is costing us for £250 billion, for around £70 billion worth of NHS assets.

The problem with waste £££ flinging is that both sides of parliament are corrupt as F.

The problem with the PPE was not the corruption behind it, it was the fact that there were no supplies for such an outbreak in the place. Systemic problems going back decades from both sides of the house.

Government wasting billions shocker... not... It happens all the time. But for PPE, the government was under enormous pressure to supply the NHS with the materials it needed during the pandemic. Labour would have done the same under the same circumstance, same process different colour.

What it showed more than anything else, is how out of depth these people in power are, when fat Tony can hoodwink a government into handing over billions in cash. I think it is worse than corruption, I think it is outright incompetence.

I wouldn't trust the Tories or Labour to be honest, but any corruption from any party, those involved should face criminal charges.

It may sound I am disagreeing with you, but I am not, I think a lot of debates like this, ignore glaring core of the problem. What idiot allowed the NHS resources to get so low in the first place, leading to these idiots to scramble around in the first place.

If you want to stop the corruption, then stop voting for the idiots for place. Labour, Libs, Green, Tories, Reform, SNP.... All blithering idiots as they are all run by a political class that is out of touch with reality and the people.

Just like the debate over child benefits, it's a joke. And probably not for the reason you think.
 
SkipRat said:
And Labour did the same with PPI that is costing us for £250 billion, for around £70 billion worth of NHS assets.

The problem with waste £££ flinging is that both sides of parliament are corrupt as F.

The problem with the PPE was not the corruption behind it, it was the fact that there were no supplies for such an outbreak in the place. Systemic problems going back decades from both sides of the house.

Government wasting billions shocker... not... It happens all the time. But for PPE, the government was under enormous pressure to supply the NHS with the materials it needed during the pandemic. Labour would have done the same under the same circumstance, same process different colour.

What it showed more than anything else, is how out of depth these people in power are, when fat Tony can hoodwink a government into handing over billions in cash. I think it is worse than corruption, I think it is outright incompetence.

I wouldn't trust the Tories or Labour to be honest, but any corruption from any party, those involved should face criminal charges.

It may sound I am disagreeing with you, but I am not, I think a lot of debates like this, ignore glaring core of the problem. What idiot allowed the NHS resources to get so low in the first place, leading to these idiots to scramble around in the first place.

If you want to stop the corruption, then stop voting for the idiots for place. Labour, Libs, Green, Tories, Reform, SNP.... All blithering idiots as they are all run by a political class that is out of touch with reality and the people.

Just like the debate over child benefits, it's a joke. And probably not for the reason you think.
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Ppe was junked because it went out of date, it's plastic, it doesn't go out of date.
But there in no money in not renewing it and certain people would out of a job if they didn't have these meaningless tasks.
 
glasgowspur said:
Ppe was junked because it went out of date, it's plastic, it doesn't go out of date.
But there in no money in not renewing it and certain people would out of a job if they didn't have these meaningless tasks.
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polymers do breakdown over time, even if stored in optimum conditions
 
glasgowspur said:
Not over a couple of years, I have stock that 6-7 year old and you would not know the difference between it and new.
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Is that medical grade equipment you would put between your body and a deadly pathogen?

We should always have the gear we might need in a worst case scenario, that we didn’t is on previous administrations, whatever state our preparedness was at, doesn’t excuse the Tories from again abusing their position to make some bank for them and their acquaintances.
 
SkipRat said:
And Labour did the same with PPI that is costing us for £250 billion, for around £70 billion worth of NHS assets.

The problem with waste £££ flinging is that both sides of parliament are corrupt as F.

The problem with the PPE was not the corruption behind it, it was the fact that there were no supplies for such an outbreak in the place. Systemic problems going back decades from both sides of the house.

Government wasting billions shocker... not... It happens all the time. But for PPE, the government was under enormous pressure to supply the NHS with the materials it needed during the pandemic. Labour would have done the same under the same circumstance, same process different colour.

What it showed more than anything else, is how out of depth these people in power are, when fat Tony can hoodwink a government into handing over billions in cash. I think it is worse than corruption, I think it is outright incompetence.

I wouldn't trust the Tories or Labour to be honest, but any corruption from any party, those involved should face criminal charges.

It may sound I am disagreeing with you, but I am not, I think a lot of debates like this, ignore glaring core of the problem. What idiot allowed the NHS resources to get so low in the first place, leading to these idiots to scramble around in the first place.

If you want to stop the corruption, then stop voting for the idiots for place. Labour, Libs, Green, Tories, Reform, SNP.... All blithering idiots as they are all run by a political class that is out of touch with reality and the people.

Just like the debate over child benefits, it's a joke. And probably not for the reason you think.
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Agree with all of that but it’s all so depressing.

Our society and western society in general needs a fundamental overhaul. Our western media sneer about Russian corruption and banana republics but the truth is there’s just as much corruption and incompetence in the uk. And our corrupt media is just as much part of the problem as politicians and other western institutions.
 
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