Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[DTA]

Or just not be so extremely neo-liberal.

Embrace things such as state aid, a finite workforce, investment in skills.

And work on the principle of fair trade, not free trade. Free trade is fundamentally exploitative

Your Neo-liberal comment is boring and lazy.

As for state aid, investment in skills etc, I’m all for it - but you only borrow for growth. Anything else is precarious, and or unsustainable.

which leads me on to your “finite workforce” could you expand on that a bit more because that sounds like stagnation to me which would actually mean less government aid and investment in skills.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

As for state aid, investment in skills etc, I’m all for it - but you only borrow for growth. Anything else is precarious, and or unsustainable.

Although I disagree with most of you on here on brexit. I do agree with lots of what you say. The bit I quoted of yours should be enshrined in law frankly.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Your Neo-liberal comment is boring and lazy.

As for state aid, investment in skills etc, I’m all for it - but you only borrow for growth. Anything else is precarious, and or unsustainable.

which leads me on to your “finite workforce” could you expand on that a bit more because that sounds like stagnation to me which would actually mean less government aid and investment in skills.

Neo-liberalism is heart of just about everything that is wrong with the world at the moment – it is the source of all the greed, hostility and inequality.

I don’t want growth. Growth is a neo-liberal construct. A pyramid or ponzi scheme. It serves no one but those who cream the fat off the top. Sustainability is the alternative.

Finite workforce I mean stable or slightly decline population. So not chasing growth through mass immigration. Rather it’s knowing we have a workforce of say 40 million. Knowing that say 20% will be healthcare, 20% education, 20% manufacturing, 10% transport, 10% hospitality etc. Planning and training to fill that. Having a country that functions. Not employing social dumping just to boost profits.

 

[DTA]

Neo-liberalism is heart of just about everything that is wrong with the world at the moment – it is the source of all the greed, hostility and inequality.

I don’t want growth. Growth is a neo-liberal construct. A pyramid or ponzi scheme. It serves no one but those who cream the fat off the top. Sustainability is the alternative.

Finite workforce I mean stable or slightly decline population. So not chasing growth through mass immigration. Rather it’s knowing we have a workforce of say 40 million. Knowing that say 20% will be healthcare, 20% education, 20% manufacturing, 10% transport, 10% hospitality etc. Planning and training to fill that. Having a country that functions. Not employing social dumping just to boost profits.

like I said your neo liberal comments are boring and lazy. Not to mention flat out wrong. most of the problems in the west are now being caused populist isolationists and those that pull their strings, whom are deflecting attention away from the fact that they exploiting the masses to continually enrich themselves without cost. They love the cultural wars, as we are continually distracted arguing with ourselves and never looking up.

as for your finite workforce, how does that work with an ageing population?

40 million (an increase in 8 million to what we have now by the way) is enough to sustain 11 million pensioners for example, what happens when the pensioner rise to 20 million? What are you suggesting a purge of old people ?

not to mention the long term unemployment, the sick the disabled etc

 

[Gutter Boy]

like I said your neo liberal comments are boring and lazy. Not to mention flat out wrong. most of the problems in the west are now being caused populist isolationists and those that pull their strings, whom are deflecting attention away from the fact that they exploiting the masses to continually enrich themselves without cost. They love the cultural wars, as we are continually distracted arguing with ourselves and never looking up.

as for your finite workforce, how does that work with an ageing population?

40 million (an increase in 8 million to what we have now by the way) is enough to sustain 11 million pensioners for example, what happens when the pensioner rise to 20 million? What are you suggesting a purge of old people ?

not to mention the long term unemployment, the sick the disabled etc

Why accept this weird perversion thatcher and reagon dreamt up 45 years ago? Humans live far better in more collective ways in other times and places. Dont become resigned to this dud

You dont have pensioners or unemployed with UBI

 

[P.D.]

There is a fundamental problem, which is Brexiteers mainly, now understand that versions of soft Brexit are worse than being in the EU.

That was obvious from the start to some. The foolhardy are still clinging to a belief that there is gold at the end of this rainbow. Mainly because their egos are so invested, they can't unwind their position after being so fully vested in the dreams of Brexit. How long do you give Brexit to bear fruit? If you kick the can along long enough you can avoid facing the reality: the UK is poorer, less efficient, and more marginal outside of cooperation with our closest neighbors.

Perhaps you need to flip this to remainers who see the need to continually go on about it non stop years after the vote.

 

[glasgowspur]

Why accept this weird perversion thatcher and reagon dreamt up 45 years ago? Humans live far better in more collective ways in other times and places. Dont become resigned to this dud

You dont have pensioners or unemployed with UBI

Yes you will, ubi payments will not cover the lifestyle that everyone wants in retirement.
You do know the b stands for basic don't you?
Plenty of us have been saving for decades to fund a decent retirement, so unless ubi is effectively going to pay me what i earn just now i I will still want a pension.

 

[DTA]

Why accept this weird perversion thatcher and reagon dreamt up 45 years ago? Humans live far better in more collective ways in other times and places. Dont become resigned to this dud

You dont have pensioners or unemployed with UBI

that’s such a non answer. What collective ways? what other times and places? Remember we are talking about a country with 67 million. So don’t start chatting about some commune. Give me real, tangible examples so we can start having a grown up conversation.

UBI is interesting as a theory. But that doesn’t get rid of pensioners or the unemployed, it just changes what they are called

 

[spurspinter1]

that’s such a non answer. What collective ways? what other times and places? Remember we are talking about a country with 67 million. So don’t start chatting about some commune. Give me real, tangible examples so we can start having a grown up conversation.

UBI is interesting as a theory. But that doesn’t get rid of pensioners or the unemployed, it just changes what they are called

Not saying you mean it this way as I can read into things the wrong way, but from your last paragraph it appears that you may have catagorised pensioners and the unemployed as a problem that you'd want to be removed for things to be better, the film hot fuzz comes to mind.

I don't get why everyone still has to pretend to want to push boulders up hills and absolutely think UBI is the way forward, I'm essentially on a unofficial trial run of it currently.

It seems that anything that promotes a genuine work / life balance isn't good for the cultivation of pies so back to the hamster wheel it is and the masses are taught to dislike those unwilling to play the game.

 

[DTA]

Not saying you mean it this way as I can read into things the wrong way, but from your last paragraph it appears that you may have catagorised pensioners and the unemployed as a problem that you'd want to be removed for things to be better, the film hot fuzz comes to mind.

I don't get why everyone still has to pretend to want to push boulders up hills and absolutely think UBI is the way forward, I'm essentially on a unofficial trial run of it currently.

It seems that anything that promotes a genuine work / life balance isn't good for the cultivation of pies so back to the hamster wheel it is and the masses are taught to dislike those unwilling to play the game.

absolutely not what I meant about pensioners and the unemployed.

it was in response to gutterboys fantasy economics where he thinks a change of designation solves issues that are real, tangible and need grown up thinking to even begin to make change for the better. Basically Brexit thinking… or rather non thinking… “people are tired of experts” fûck off…

as for UBI like I said it’s interesting, but still requires productivity and as the population grows or more pertinently gets older, it would require economic growth to look after people with more complex needs. If we are talking it on a national scale at least.

Most proponents of UBI would point to AI and robotics as where those gains can be made. Maybe, but we are not there yet, nor are we guaranteed 100% to get there, and even if we do, when would that be? And at what cost (non financial).

As for working smarter, and not harder to achieve that work life balance, I’m all for it. And pretty much what I practice.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Yes you will, ubi payments will not cover the lifestyle that everyone wants in retirement.
You do know the b stands for basic don't you?
Plenty of us have been saving for decades to fund a decent retirement, so unless ubi is effectively going to pay me what i earn just now i I will still want a pension.

UBI replaces state pensions (and all benefits). It’s like a state paid national living wage for all (half for children). But anything you want to earn on top, including private pensions, is fine. It’s not communism. It’s just making sure everyone effectively has their basic food, shelter and fuel provided as a fundamental service. In some ways just see it as state pension being rolled out to all under 67s as well.

 

[Gutter Boy]

that’s such a non answer. What collective ways? what other times and places? Remember we are talking about a country with 67 million. So don’t start chatting about some commune. Give me real, tangible examples so we can start having a grown up conversation.

UBI is interesting as a theory. But that doesn’t get rid of pensioners or the unemployed, it just changes what they are called

Communities have always been the primary method of social organisation. The individualism we have now only emerged in the late 70s.

Commerce was always weighted to localism. The idea that beef is cheaper to fly over from Argentina, rather than the farm half a mile away is an obscenity. Tariffs were always used to protect economies. Now commerce is just focused on extraction – extract all you can from a local area and send it all off to distant shareholders.

It’s about fundamentality changing what humans do. Do we survive on the scraps the superrich leave behind. Or do we focus on humanity and living more purposeful happier lives? Neo-liberalism is just the new slavery that people need to break free from.

 

[Gutter Boy]

absolutely not what I meant about pensioners and the unemployed.

it was in response to gutterboys fantasy economics where he thinks a change of designation solves issues that are real, tangible and need grown up thinking to even begin to make change for the better. Basically Brexit thinking… or rather non thinking… “people are tired of experts” fûck off…

as for UBI like I said it’s interesting, but still requires productivity and as the population grows or more pertinently gets older, it would require economic growth to look after people with more complex needs. If we are talking it on a national scale at least.

Most proponents of UBI would point to AI and robotics as where those gains can be made. Maybe, but we are not there yet, nor are we guaranteed 100% to get there, and even if we do, when would that be? And at what cost (non financial).

As for working smarter, and not harder to achieve that work life balance, I’m all for it. And pretty much what I practice.

The level of wealth inequality we live in is a policy choice. There’s plenty to go round, it’s just currently highly concentrated. Dial productivity down, spend less on crap that comes in container ships and goes to landfill, shift to a circular economy, focus more on the essentials and the pro-social, and humanity evolves to the next post-capitalist epoch.

 

[DTA]

S

UBI replaces state pensions (and all benefits). It’s like a state paid national living wage for all (half for children). But anything you want to earn on top, including private pensions, is fine. It’s not communism. It’s just making sure everyone effectively has their basic food, shelter and fuel provided as a fundamental service. In some ways just see it as state pension being rolled out to all under 67s as well.

Sounds great. Now how’s that going to be funded. Especially considering that you would actively seek the shrinking of the economy.

 

[DTA]

Communities have always been the primary method of social organisation. The individualism we have now only emerged in the late 70s.

Commerce was always weighted to localism. The idea that beef is cheaper to fly over from Argentina, rather than the farm half a mile away is an obscenity. Tariffs were always used to protect economies. Now commerce is just focused on extraction – extract all you can from a local area and send it all off to distant shareholders.

It’s about fundamentality changing what humans do. Do we survive on the scraps the superrich leave behind. Or do we focus on humanity and living more purposeful happier lives? Neo-liberalism is just the new slavery that people need to break free from.

I’m not against communities and localism. But it’s how you build that, to say I want it and that’s it, is childish, how are those built and how does it fit into the wider economy and it’s challenges.

it’s interesting that you bring up Arginine beef. And not Australian. Because post Brexit we now have a trade deal with Australia that will be catastrophic for local British farmers. You helped bring that about mate with your support for Brexit… own it.

Me personally I’m more concerned with how the cow is treated in its life, rather than where is comes from. But at the same time I think food security is important and localised producers should be protected…. All things that being part of the EU agricultural policy provided.

“ But why can’t we have even higher standards since we left the eu” well it’s easier to dictate trade terms including getting countries to increase their animal welfare standards when you are the largest trading block in the world.

less so when you are a country so desperate for trade deals you just got your pants pulled down by fücking Australia.

Your Last paragraph is just waffle… give me some tangible examples

 

[Gutter Boy]

Sounds great. Now how’s that going to be funded. Especially considering that you would actively seek the shrinking of the economy.

By owning our own resources - land, minerals, weather, infrastructure, labour etc. Take everything we produce and take out the proportion you need to fund UBI.

It needs a fundamental rethinking, especially around more reversion to public ownership. It can't just be limited to x% on income tax etc.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I’m not against communities and localism. But it’s how you build that, to say I want it and that’s it, is childish, how are those built and how does it fit into the wider economy and it’s challenges.

it’s interesting that you bring up Arginine beef. And not Australian. Because post Brexit we now have a trade deal with Australia that will be catastrophic for local British farmers. You helped bring that about mate with your support for Brexit… own it.

Me personally I’m more concerned with how the cow is treated in its life, rather than where is comes from. But at the same time I think food security is important and localised producers should be protected…. All things that being part of the EU agricultural policy provided.

“ But why can’t we have even higher standards since we left the eu” well it’s easier to dictate trade terms including getting countries to increase their animal welfare standards when you are the largest trading block in the world.

less so when you are a country so desperate for trade deals you just got your pants pulled down by fücking Australia.

Your Last paragraph is just waffle… give me some tangible examples

It’s thinking different, thinking different, not being constrained to the framework imposed on us at the end of the 70s.

I know the free marketeers control the new Brexit powers at the moment, but that will change in the next two years. Then we can start using state aid, tariffs, variable taxes etc. – the stuff forbidden by the EU - to start doing good.

Localism is also about the climate. Flying cows halfway round the world should never be allowed to happen.

Tangible examples – say compulsory 3 day working week (maybe start at 4 as a bridge), giving everyone 4 days of family and leisure time, while aiding the fairer of wealth.

 

[DTA]

By owning our own resources - land, minerals, weather, infrastructure, labour etc. Take everything we produce and take out the proportion you need to fund UBI.

It needs a fundamental rethinking, especially around more reversion to public ownership. It can't just be limited to x% on income tax etc.

three things:
1. and what about those resources in private hands?
2. Have you done the maths does it all add up with the population that we have now and will have in the future?
3.sounds a lot like communism to me - but maybe you will answer number 1 in a surprising way, and I will be wrong.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Neo-liberalism is heart of just about everything that is wrong with the world at the moment – it is the source of all the greed, hostility and inequality.

I don’t want growth. Growth is a neo-liberal construct. A pyramid or ponzi scheme. It serves no one but those who cream the fat off the top. Sustainability is the alternative.

Finite workforce I mean stable or slightly decline population. So not chasing growth through mass immigration. Rather it’s knowing we have a workforce of say 40 million. Knowing that say 20% will be healthcare, 20% education, 20% manufacturing, 10% transport, 10% hospitality etc. Planning and training to fill that. Having a country that functions. Not employing social dumping just to boost profits.

It doesn't work though due to an ageing population. We're also in a very bad place right now without growth due to the huge pile of debt we have (that is still growing) and costing us more and more to service.

 

[Finney Is Back]

By owning our own resources - land, minerals, weather, infrastructure, labour etc. Take everything we produce and take out the proportion you need to fund UBI.

It needs a fundamental rethinking, especially around more reversion to public ownership. It can't just be limited to x% on income tax etc.

You realise that we need to import the rare earth minerals for (e.g) clean energy right?