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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

It would actually be a great deal for the UK as well as one part of her, would remain in the customs union and the single market. Thus retaining all the benefits of the Union. And if the Brexiters are right (I obviously think not), that we could then be agile enough to negotiate with the rest of the world without lowering standards, then we could potentially get the best of both worlds.

To add to this, we could then potentially export everything to the EU via NI. Thus producing a boost to the north (particularly NW)

And as NI stays in the CU and SM then we would get passporting rights as well (is that right?) So by basing head offices in NI we could then have access to the EU for services as well.
 
Strange move from May. Still can't get my head around it, as any 'compromise' Corbyn will agree to is very likely to breach Conservative manifesto pledges. Or is this the ultimate, final gamble, where she'd go on to put a watered-down BINO head to head against her deal in a final run-off, as a last shot at forcing it through?
I think it's probably the first smart thing May has done in her career.

The EU have made it clear the the deal won't be renegotiated and can't be changed. So Corbyn can:
  1. Accept "May's" deal
  2. Be intransigent and insist on something the EU won't agree to
  3. Refuse to meet and appear to be blocking all solutions
So May either gets to tell the world that Corbyn accepted her deal or that he is to blame for not agreeing one.
 
I think you are spot on, this is more than Brexit, I mean the Brexit debate is huge but my mate pointed out one thing, none of the debates are about what really effect people and the things you mention are being neglected even more than usual.

Healthcare, Social Care, Police and Public services, all important to most people, all never really feature in the brexit debates and all being forgotten about.

Madness

The thing to do is honour the result to the referendum and get out as soon as possible.

Think politics have been ruined for a generation the way they lied to us and kept putting it off just so they can try reverse the decision.

Leave and start focusing on domestic politics. One thing that has struck me is how much people concentrated on staying inn. Inspired by politics of fear.
 
I think it's probably the first smart thing May has done in her career.

The EU have made it clear the the deal won't be renegotiated and can't be changed. So Corbyn can:
  1. Accept "May's" deal
  2. Be intransigent and insist on something the EU won't agree to
  3. Refuse to meet and appear to be blocking all solutions
So May either gets to tell the world that Corbyn accepted her deal or that he is to blame for not agreeing one.
It is strange as the reach across the house a few weeks back was poo pooed by Corbyn unless May took no deal off the table.

I suppose he must realise that we are backed into a corner with the clock ticking and no deal is the default legal position if that clock runs out hence he now appears all welcoming. The only way to remove no deal is to have a deal.

A GE is pointless due to the characters involved, the splits within the parties and the likelihood we're just heading round the same loop with the EU.

Revoke is the best option. The public's eyes have been opened. It puts the current crop out of their misery....we can put them thru the 'useless c.unts' filter and observe the landscape, without a ticking clock, and with some reasoned debate. We'll be carrying on, as we were, but with a sharp eye on all things EU. Leaving will always be an option, that can never be taken away.
 
I think it's probably the first smart thing May has done in her career.

The EU have made it clear the the deal won't be renegotiated and can't be changed. So Corbyn can:
  1. Accept "May's" deal
  2. Be intransigent and insist on something the EU won't agree to
  3. Refuse to meet and appear to be blocking all solutions
So May either gets to tell the world that Corbyn accepted her deal or that he is to blame for not agreeing one.

But surely his position will be 1 + guaranteed customs union? Wouldn't surprise me if he dropped demands for a second referendum in the name of 'compromise' (seeing as he doesn't really want one anyway), but he isn't going to agree to May's deal without (locked-in) changes to the future direction of it - and none of that falls in to the category of things the EU won't agree to. Hence my feeling that he just slams the ball back into May's court - there you go, I've 'compromised'.
 
The thing to do is honour the result to the referendum and get out as soon as possible.

Think politics have been ruined for a generation the way they lied to us and kept putting it off just so they can try reverse the decision.

Leave and start focusing on domestic politics. One thing that has struck me is how much people concentrated on staying inn. Inspired by politics of fear.

For me all parties should have come together and delivered the best Brexit they could based on the fact that the result was leave and many leave voters would have come from cross parties, many said they would, there was a great video on GMB showing all those that said they would do just that. They in my opinion had that obligation to work united to make the best of the situation for the country, instead they used it to feed their own interest, Corbyn using it not for his voters but for himself to try and manufacturer another GE, shameful and he is not the only one. And they fall on both sides, leave and remain.

Its been used by MPs to further and fuel their own ambitions and not serve the people.

Even if you voted remain you cant look at it and say anything good about the people handling this, even on their side
 
Even if you voted remain you cant look at it and say anything good about the people handling this, even on their side

I blame the remainer politicians and the people who have emboldened them. Time to leave would be to leave with no deal and negotiate a new deal from outside the union.

Time to focus on the other important areas of public life.
 
They in my opinion had that obligation to work united to make the best of the situation for the country

Even if you voted remain you cant look at it and say anything good about the people handling this, even on their side

From the leave side there is an aweful lot of criticism. And it has been a brick show. Remain voyers might say it was predicted and those who sold Breixt as easy are the real clams. Becuase they either lied knowing it would never be easy, or they were stupid and should not be in office if they couldn't see the wood for the trees.

But this is the thing, you said MPs should have come together to deliver the best Brexit for the country. What the hell is that!!? No one knows. The ERG have no manifesto, UPIK said a million things during the vote I remember Farrage saying the Norway model was his preference (now that option is roundly condemned). It is easy to criticise. Harder to create. Instead of leave supporters vilifying everyone, why can't they suggest what it is that should happen?
 
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But surely his position will be 1 + guaranteed customs union? Wouldn't surprise me if he dropped demands for a second referendum in the name of 'compromise' (seeing as he doesn't really want one anyway), but he isn't going to agree to May's deal without (locked-in) changes to the future direction of it - and none of that falls in to the category of things the EU won't agree to. Hence my feeling that he just slams the ball back into May's court - there you go, I've 'compromised'.
I'm sure it would but, again, the EU won't deal until the withdrawal is done, so he can't agree with them.

May can agree to anything she wants, she won't be a part of the negotiations.

So where does that leave him? Empty promises from a PM who will be unaccountable in a few weeks?
 
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Hehe when you're losing an arguement you don't half whine! "You just don't understand!" :) No need to blame yourself.
I absolutely do blame myself - it's not a complex concept, yet clearly I've been unable to simplify it enough.

Your point is, we are sovereign, the UK can re-vote on any mistakes it make. Thus you would back a second referendum on Brexit?
Absolutely. I think these things should always be revisited over the course of a normal referendum span - usually that's around 20 years.

I hate to sound like you, but you have missed the point here. It's an arguement for pragmatism over blind principle: if the EU controls laws that we would not change anyway, what is it we are missing? We would not change the working time directive because forcing people to work more than 48 hours a week without consent would never get votes in a democracy. And most people would also find it unreasonable. So although we can actually influence Europe (and the working time directive we changed to suit us if I recall plus we have a veto on new laws we don't like?) we are not missing anything. No we can't change free mobile phone roaming laws. But who would apart from mobile phone companies? Same applies to air polution laws. What you are missing is eu laws are not "really bad for all of us" as you put it.
We absolutely would change the WTD. Our government fought incredibly hard against it and have done ever since. The only way those sneaky clams could get it past us in the first place was to relabel it as a H&S issue so as to circumvent our veto. Again and again, the EU has proven that an individual country (even one with a veto) can do nothing once the Borg has started.

Having worked with MPs at the time of the Solvent Emissions Directive coming into law, I can absolutely tell you that we would no longer be enforcing that under a Conservative government. In the direct words of a very senior and influential Conservative, it's an "...utterly pointless bag of clam." I won't betray that person by naming them but it's a position much of the party agrees with. My work on that started with the Labour party at the time and any of them who had studied it in detail were of the same opinion.

I don't believe we would be harmonising tax regulation, we certainly wouldn't (rightly or wrongly) have freedom of movement, and I'm fairly certain we wouldn't be applying any of the EU standards to the products and services traded elsewhere around the world.

This government would not have accepted the Lisbon treaty and would certainly be rescinding our vote towards it if we were able to.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure if you wanted to go through all of the EU legislation you'd find plenty there that a Conservative government would rescind.

I'll try one more time to explain why the WTD is bad but I'd really appreciate it if you read what I write this time and not what your straw man is saying. I don't want to force my staff to work over 48 hours every week, in fact, I don't want to force anyone to do overtime. What I do need is for the skilled part of my workforce to be flexible. What I can't do (because of the WTD) is only train up and promote those who are flexible, and I can't replace inflexible staff with them. That means I'm not able to maximise the efficient of my workforce.

There is a big difference between changing legislation and giving one industry 5% off its tax bill. Yet I would suggest that if we really wanted to, there are ways for us to support an industry whilst in the EU (as you said changing legislation for example or some kind of rebate or investment rebate, see SEIS etc). Being able to trade freely is worth not having complete freedom to cut tax for one industry. Or was Margaret Thatcher wrong when she backed this continent wide free trading setup, which has seen the UK go from broke to prosperous?
Thatcher didn't back anything like the current EU setup - I'll assume you're too young to have known that. I'll also assume that, for the same reason, you didn't experience the Labour government and trades unions that were crippling the country. It was Thatcher ridding us of them that started our upward trajectory, not EU bureaucracy.


You mentioned selling services to the US, I just asked for exmaples. Probably has gone over my head. I take your point re. bespoke UK trade deal. Fair point. It is the price we pay. But is it offset by the EUs weight to negotiate good deals? Obviously all nations want access to the EUs 550m consumers, and will normally cut better deals to access such a large market. It makes us less agile, but then trade deals are not quick things to broker are they? They take years to put in place, and smaller nations tend to be lower down the pecking order for obvious reasons. Then there is the power of trade regulation to sort your own out. The EU has clought to bully and manipulate in its favour, not sure we do.
The EU bullies and forces in favour of those that matter to it - Germany, France and sometimes Italy. I firmly believe that deals tailored to fit perfectly with a fairly large nation will be better deals than one size fits all ones with larger nations. What we gain in bargaining power, we lose in the deals having to suit Bulgaria as much as they do the UK.

Yes I think Sony would have left anyway. The cost of moving their European HQ to Amsterdam would have been significant. But with all else equal, apart from Brexit, they chose to be in the EU. To have unrestricted access to those 500m people.
The logical extension of your assertion that they require unrestricted access is that without moving to the EU they will have restricted access. You'll need to show that there will be restrictions and that they couldn't be balanced with something as simple as tax cuts for your case to hold water.

That is why they were in London. Pre-Brexit we didn't have to bribe companies to be here. They came of their own accord.
That's a somewhat naive point of view if you don't mind me pointing that out. All countries are constantly bribing and cajoling businesses to settle within their borders. The EU works hard at trying to stop that - in the next few years Ireland and Luxembourg are likely to suffer heavily from such work.

But don't think for a second that we didn't have to convince businesses to choose us in the past, because we did.
 
From the leave side there is an aweful lot of criticism. And it has been a brick show. Remain voyers might say it was predicted and those who sold Breixt as easy are the real clams. Becuase they either lied knowing it would never be easy, or they were stupid and should not be in office if they couldn't see the wood for the trees.

But this is the thing, you said MPs should have come together to deliver the best Brexit for the country. What the hell is that!!? No one knows. The ERG have no manifesto, UPIK said a million things during the vote I remember Farrage saying the Norway model was his preference (now that option is roundly condemned). It is easy to criticise. Harder to create. Instead of leave supporters vilifying everyone, why can't they suggest what it is that should happen?

Ok I knew that would get this response which was not my intention because I am not debating this part anymore. If as a remain voter you without bias can say that your faith in the MPs on either side is as strong as it was before this then I would question your judgement personally.
 
I see Nick Boles has outed Robbie Gibb on Twitter --

"I am no longer a member of the Conservative Party. So I can be blunt where previously I might have been discreet. The PM’s head of communications Robbie Gibb is a hard Brexiter who wants to destroy the PM’s new search for a cross party compromise."

I'm surprised it has taken as long as this. for anyone who knows or has known Robbie (and as I mentioned on here previously I think) he was a libertarian, ASI acolyte years ago, and I find it difficult to believe that May did not know this when he was appointed. Or maybe no one did due diligence. I figured that, if his political leanings were unchanged, it must mean that either May was also a closet hard Brexiteer, or that it was an odd appointment given that she was going to be relying on him for comms advice.
 
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I see Nick Boles has outed Robbie Gibb on Twitter --

"I am no longer a member of the Conservative Party. So I can be blunt where previously I might have been discreet. The PM’s head of communications Robbie Gibb is a hard Brexiter who wants to destroy the PM’s new search for a cross party compromise."

I'm surprised it has taken as long as this. for anyone who knows or has known Robbie (and as I mentioned on here previously I think) he was a libertarian, ASI acolyte years ago, and I find it difficult to believe that May did not know this when he was appointed. Or maybe no one did due diligence. I figured that, if his political leanings were unchanged, it must mean that either May was also a closet hard Brexiteer, or that it was an odd appointment given that she was going to be relying on him for comms advice.

I fail to see what the issue it though?

It was the Conservatives that offered up the Referendum in the first place which made leave a possibility, we voted and we voted to leave so therefore the party should have been all pro Brexit in their intentions to deliver it. Therefore having a hard brexit head of coms should mean nothing unless as a party you are trying to Reneg on the vote and result you actually instigate yourself?
 
It is more that anyone should be labouring under the impression that Gibb was anything but a Brexiteer - yet portraying May as an ardent Remainer - the two are incompatible.
 
Must say I agree with some of the other posts, looks like Brexit won't happen. Too many people conspiring not to let it happen.
 
Must say I agree with some of the other posts, looks like Brexit won't happen. Too many people conspiring not to let it happen.

This was my fear right at the very outset in June 2016. I often get told I'm too cynical - my response to that is, I'm usually right!

Edit - Actually on that note, a conversation I had on the morning of the result has just come back to me. A chinese friend of mine asked me, words to the effect of, 'why aren't you happier?'. She had an english boyfriend, and he and his family were rooster-a-hoop celebrating the result, so knowing I was also a leave voter, she was puzzled as to why I seemed a little subdued in comparison.

My answer to her was something like '...because I know what's coming...'.
 
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Must say I agree with some of the other posts, looks like Brexit won't happen. Too many people conspiring not to let it happen.

It can still happen!
But now all the card are on table and all the salient information and consequences are in the public domain it would have to go to another informed vote of some type.
Then if leave wins, the jobs a good’un and we are out!
Don’t have problem with that!
 
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So you'd conceed the EU doesn't acutually make us uncompetitive. Terrific. (You can only maintain the working time directive makes us uncompetitive, if the UK would put in place something aweful that foreces people to work extremely long hours post EU, and youi're not suggesting that, and it would never happen).

Is there anything that we can point to where there are good reasons to leave the EU? Something that is clear, which could help to justify this unholy mess our parliment is in?

I know Scara's already dealt with this, but allowing flexibility does not automatically equate to "something awful that forces people to work extremely long hours". I was employed before the WTD existed, I don't recall being forced to do 100 hour weeks (though it was a while ago now, so I can't guarantee the absolute accuracy of my memory!).

Did you write the Project Fear handbook, or are you just heavily influenced by it? ;)
 
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