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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Rorschach said:
I spotted this line in a Guardian piece this evening. You have to laugh.

On Monday around 50 Tory MPs attended a training seminar organised by colleagues on what a customs union is and how it works.
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If that is the case, it is a shocking state of affairs. Pre-campain was the time to swat up. Despite all the soundbites from Farrage et al about democracy, immigration, contol of laws etc the core of the EU is really the customs union! Sure it does other things, but at its heart is the customs union and free trade.

The next stage of this brickshow is that people understand a customs union is like being in the EU but a little worse. The end game is another vote where we can finally put this farce to bed.
 
SpurMeUp said:
If that is the case, it is a shocking state of affairs. Pre-campain was the time to swat up. Despite all the soundbites from Farrage et al about democracy, immigration, contol of laws etc the core of the EU is really the customs union! Sure it does other things, but at its heart is the customs union and free trade.

The next stage of this brickshow is that people understand a customs union is like being in the EU but a little worse. The end game is another vote where we can finally put this farce to bed.
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Of course, it might not be true but somehow I think it is. It plays into the pattern of ignorance about the implications of Brexit from day one.
 
Rorschach said:
Of course, it might not be true but somehow I think it is. It plays into the pattern of ignorance about the implications of Brexit from day one.
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And the lack of understanding about Ireland. Rabb never read the Good Friday agreement, Ireland secrety barley got a grasp of Irish history and saying she was "scared" of Ireland. How could the electorate possibly know about the brexit issue, when those in power are clearly learning on the job? That parliment continues on with this farce is the strange thing. It is so clearly wrong on many levels - like crime in multi-story car parks.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
And the lack of understanding about Ireland. Rabb never read the Good Friday agreement, Ireland secrety barley got a grasp of Irish history and saying she was "scared" of Ireland. How could the electorate possibly know about the brexit issue, when those in power are clearly learning on the job? That parliment continues on with this farce is the strange thing. It is so clearly wrong on many levels - like crime in multi-story car parks.
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Indeed. The perfect solution to the Irish backstop issue was to create a special case for NI with the region staying in the CU/SM in addition to the UK market. NI born citizens are defacto EU citizens anyway because of the Good Friday agreement so it would have mirrored perfectly what was on the ground. It would also have tethered NI to the UK constitutionally for an extended period as basically, it was a sweet deal and what's more the EU were down with it. If the DUP hadn't fudged the very people they were supposed to represent then this brickshow would have been wrapped up a year ago.
 
Rorschach said:
Indeed. The perfect solution to the Irish backstop issue was to create a special case for NI with the region staying in the CU/SM in addition to the UK market. NI born citizens are defacto EU citizens anyway because of the Good Friday agreement so it would have mirrored perfectly what was on the ground. It would also have tethered NI to the UK constitutionally for an extended period as basically, it was a sweet deal and what's more the EU were down with it. If the DUP hadn't fudged the very people they were supposed to represent then this brickshow would have been wrapped up a year ago.
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Whilst true...its still trying to do the wrong thing 'righter'. Which is Brexit. At some point people have to wake up to all this mess being Brexit itself. Sure things could have been done better, but the underlying problem is Brexit. Which does not bring anything postive to the UK, but causes all manner of problem, mainly economic but also constitutional.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Im tired of Brexit, said for a long time we wont leave, and actually that side of it does not bother me so much. It is as you say the way the MPs have behaved. The leavers who still wont vote for May's deal are just as bad as the ones who vote it down because they want to over turn the referendum.

But for me I want to see more talk about what to do with Knife crime in London. People are now getting stabbed by little bricks who want to get into gangs, is pathetic.

I think it is best to leave, but honestly the fact that departments now are not doing anything but brexit is causing the country so much harm, I think we should leave but it needs to get sorted.

My sister is on attachment to the foreign office as a legal adviser and all she talks about is brexit. Is getting old, the are other things we need to do in this country.

I support controlling our own laws, but I also think we need to aim for our country to become renewable energy neutral, we need to sort out knife crime, we need to switch to a graduation tax rather then student loans, we need to refocus the economy towards emerging industries.

The is so much we need to do. It would be best to just pull the plaster off, grin and bear it and then get on with the important stuff. The are so many problems in the country we need to focus on.
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I think you are spot on, this is more than Brexit, I mean the Brexit debate is huge but my mate pointed out one thing, none of the debates are about what really effect people and the things you mention are being neglected even more than usual.

Healthcare, Social Care, Police and Public services, all important to most people, all never really feature in the brexit debates and all being forgotten about.

Madness
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think you are spot on, this is more than Brexit, I mean the Brexit debate is huge but my mate pointed out one thing, none of the debates are about what really effect people and the things you mention are being neglected even more than usual.

Healthcare, Social Care, Police and Public services, all important to most people, all never really feature in the brexit debates and all being forgotten about.

Madness
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Brexit is indeed harming our nation. Here you go https://petition.parliament.uk/peti...METYjm_8KonsVXFSVdJnNo3H8JiIqHYYWKEdFZPrQrn9A
 
I don't want to get into long drawn out argument on it but Brexit has not even happened

The harm caused now is in my opinion caused by politicians and agendas beyond Brexit, mainly to do with their own political and personal agendas. I have no faith in it anymore and thats not Brexit related, thats purely on what I have seen with MPs on both sides of the house and the way they have acted.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Whilst true...its still trying to do the wrong thing 'righter'. Which is Brexit. At some point people have to wake up to all this mess being Brexit itself. Sure things could have been done better, but the underlying problem is Brexit. Which does not bring anything postive to the UK, but causes all manner of problem, mainly economic but also constitutional.
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I certainly don't disagree with that. I'm of the opinion that the whole thing was ill-conceived from the get-go, and personally, I believe this pursuit of isolationism is a huge step in the wrong direction. Obviously, a lot of people would disagree with that perspective, and I respect their opinion even if I disagree with it. And so you have to respect that some form of brexit was voted for even if you don't agree with it.

But this is where I start to feel uncomfortable. I think the whole process has been flawed from the off. What underpins the notion of respecting the will of the people is a simpler question, was the vote valid and I don't believe it was. It has been shown that the vote was taken wholly in ignorance of the implications of the outcome, and that is ignoring any nefarious outside influences putting their thumb on the scales of the decision. Anyway, at the risk of going over old ground, I'll stop there.
 
Rorschach said:
I certainly don't disagree with that. I'm of the opinion that the whole thing was ill-conceived from the get-go, and personally, I believe this pursuit of isolationism is a huge step in the wrong direction. Obviously, a lot of people would disagree with that perspective, and I respect their opinion even if I disagree with it. And so you have to respect that some form of brexit was voted for even if you don't agree with it.

But this is where I start to feel uncomfortable. I think the whole process has been flawed from the off. What underpins the notion of respecting the will of the people is a simpler question, was the vote valid and I don't believe it was. It has been shown that the vote was taken wholly in ignorance of the implications of the outcome, and that is ignoring any nefarious outside influences putting their thumb on the scales of the decision. Anyway, at the risk of going over old ground, I'll stop there.
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Will of the people is a catch phrase as there was no details of what type of exit from the EU we should have on the ballet. If there had been people might have had more foresight. But Brexit has been 'make it up as you go along'. That UKIP, the ERG, Boris etc have never once put forward a manifesto or brexit vision says it all.

Then why isn't parliment taking into consideration the good of 31 million Brits who did not vote!? What has happened to these lot? Add in those who are too young to vote (but tend to favor remain so they can be free to live and work in europe should they wish to) and its even more. I'm not sure why this forgotton group isn't emphasised more.

Brexit should be about one thing only: the good of the UK. And all discussions around it should come back to this. However, sadly, most of the narratives are about failing politicans, broken promises etc. when MPs, newspapers, people should be looking at how Brexit will be for the good of the UK. One of the biggest challanges to this is the Sun, Telegraph, Express and previously the Daily Mail were not ballanced in the slightest. Their editors and owners had/have an agenda which skews reporting into emotive brexit campaigning, rather than a rational discussion about how the EU works, or otherwise, or for the UK.
 
Rorschach said:
Indeed. The perfect solution to the Irish backstop issue was to create a special case for NI with the region staying in the CU/SM in addition to the UK market. NI born citizens are defacto EU citizens anyway because of the Good Friday agreement so it would have mirrored perfectly what was on the ground. It would also have tethered NI to the UK constitutionally for an extended period as basically, it was a sweet deal and what's more the EU were down with it. If the DUP hadn't fudged the very people they were supposed to represent then this brickshow would have been wrapped up a year ago.
Click to expand...

I think we had a similar conversation a while back, but what really puzzles me is why the DUP couldn't recognise this situation as being possibly the best hedge they'd ever find against full-on Irish reunification. Sure, they might not like swallowing it short-term, but longer term it strikes me as the best possible way of serving their interests. And they've flushed it down the bricker...
 
Strange move from May. Still can't get my head around it, as any 'compromise' Corbyn will agree to is very likely to breach Conservative manifesto pledges. Or is this the ultimate, final gamble, where she'd go on to put a watered-down BINO head to head against her deal in a final run-off, as a last shot at forcing it through?
 
Parklaner81 said:
Strange move from May. Still can't get my head around it, as any 'compromise' Corbyn will agree to is very likely to breach Conservative manifesto pledges. Or is this the ultimate, final gamble, where she'd put a watered-down BINO head to head against her deal in a final run-off, as a last shot at forcing it through?
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A subplot is that she can spread the blame a little easier now that nothing is sticking on the EU.
 
GE my arse!:cool:

With Jezza's inept band of freedom fighters on one side and Lord Snooty and his small but extremely wealthy cabal on the other, our current parliamentary system has crashed.
We need a new centrist/unity party to add balance otherwise Brexit will be back again next year in some guise or other.
 
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Parklaner81 said:
I think we had a similar conversation a while back, but what really puzzles me is why the DUP couldn't recognise this situation as being possibly the best hedge they'd ever find against full-on Irish reunification. Sure, they might not like swallowing it short-term, but longer term it strikes me as the best possible way of serving their interests. And they've flushed it down the bricker...
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It would actually be a great deal for the UK as well as one part of her, would remain in the customs union and the single market. Thus retaining all the benefits of the Union. And if the Brexiters are right (I obviously think not), that we could then be agile enough to negotiate with the rest of the world without lowering standards, then we could potentially get the best of both worlds.
 
Parklaner81 said:
I think we had a similar conversation a while back, but what really puzzles me is why the DUP couldn't recognise this situation as being possibly the best hedge they'd ever find against full-on Irish reunification. Sure, they might not like swallowing it short-term, but longer term it strikes me as the best possible way of serving their interests. And they've flushed it down the bricker...
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I could never figure this out either. Their line on no divergence in policy from the UK was false to begin with. NI is a special case in so many ways already. I concluded that they just like saying no, a lot.
 
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DTA said:
It would actually be a great deal for the UK as well as one part of her, would remain in the customs union and the single market. Thus retaining all the benefits of the Union. And if the Brexiters are right (I obviously think not), that we could then be agile enough to negotiate with the rest of the world without lowering standards, then we could potentially get the best of both worlds.
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Massive inward investment to the province too.
 
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