Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Lilbaz]

what are you talking about???

even in your own example above there is a net contribution of £3000???

And it would be £5000 without the 100 people.

So would you be better off with the 50 or 150?

 

[johnola]

They come to our land like they come to our forums. For their own are brick.

Welcome all, the more the merrier.

 

[DTA]

And it would be £5000 without the 100 people.

it just doesn’t work like that. At best that is fanciful.

but let’s say ok… you found a magic way to exclude the 100. What about the second and third generations of that 100 that would have net contributions?

Let’s take one set of my grandparents as an example.

let’s say they took more from the uk then they received. I don’t know if that’s the case buts let’s say it is

what is an undeniable fact is that they had six children and numerous grandchildren, who have literally contributed millions in taxes, some of which had careers in education and health that have contributed more than tax revenue to make this country better than it would be.

but you would have excluded them because they are one of the 100. Thus making this country worse off.

you see now?

 

[AuroRaman]

it just doesn’t work like that. At best that is fanciful.

but let’s say ok… you found a magic way to exclude the 100. What about the second and third generations of that 100 that would have net contributions?

Let’s take one set of my grandparents as an example.

let’s say they took more from the uk then they received. I don’t know if that’s the case buts let’s say it is

what is an undeniable fact is that they had six children and numerous grandchildren, who have literally contributed millions in taxes, some of which had careers in education and health that have contributed more than tax revenue to make this country better than it would be.

but you would have excluded them because they are one of the 100. Thus making this country worse off.

you see now?

Honestly, it shouldn’t have to be explained in this much detail but fair play to you.

 

[Lilbaz]

it just doesn’t work like that. At best that is fanciful.

but let’s say ok… you found a magic way to exclude the 100. What about the second and third generations of that 100 that would have net contributions?

Let’s take one set of my grandparents as an example.

let’s say they took more from the uk then they received. I don’t know if that’s the case buts let’s say it is

what is an undeniable fact is that they had six children and numerous grandchildren, who have literally contributed millions in taxes, some of which had careers in education and health that have contributed more than tax revenue to make this country better than it would be.

but you would have excluded them because they are one of the 100. Thus making this country worse off.

you see now?

Magic way to exclude them is to have rules on who is allowed to come into the country. It's not a radical idea. Most countries do it.

Again i'm not saying we can't have immigration.

 

[AuroRaman]

We have 120,000 children homeless in this country. Maybe think about them before 2nd and 3rd generations.
https://www.actionforchildren.org.uk/blog/what-is-the-extent-of-youth-homelessness-in-the-uk/

You’re like a walking Daily Mail headline. Some of the tangents you’re trying to take this conversation into are hilarious.

Here’s a real world example about why you’re chatting gonads. You’ve lauded the Australian/NZ points system as one we should undertake here. And speaking as someone who’s lived in both countries, the ticket certain parties utilise to get parts of the population on side is how horrific and uncontrolled their immigration is. So it doesn’t matter what system we have, a large percentage of any population will never be happy because they’ll be taken in by the frenzy politicians and certain media will whip them up into. It’s Politics 101 and genuinely laughable that people still fall for it

 

[DTA]

Magic way to exclude them is to have rules on who is allowed to come into the country. It's not a radical idea. Most countries do it.

Again i'm not saying we can't have immigration.

Haha, you do make me laugh.

I guess I have to simplify it some more:

And how do you know who the 50 givers are and who the 100 takers are?

And even in your 100% infallible magic system. What if one of the 100s descendants contributes more than a million of the rest of the population?

 

[Lilbaz]

You’re like a walking Daily Mail headline. Some of the tangents you’re trying to take this conversation into are hilarious.

Here’s a real world example about why you’re chatting gonad*s. You’ve lauded the Australian/NZ points system as one we should undertake here. And speaking as someone who’s lived in both countries, the ticket certain parties utilise to get parts of the population on side is how horrific and uncontrolled their immigration is. So it doesn’t matter what system we have, a large percentage of any population will never be happy because they’ll be taken in by the frenzy politicians and certain media will whip them up into. It’s Politics 101 and genuinely laughable that people still fall for it

Fair enough. But look to europe over the next few years and watch them slide to the right.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Fair enough. But look to europe over the next few years and watch them slide to the right.

This is my fear, too many nationalist not enough internationalist.

 

[Lilbaz]

This is my fear, too many nationalist not enough internationalist.

Think the 90s and early 2000s there was a push for globalisation. Whether that was expansion of the eu, production going to china, multinational companies/super rich, bouncing about paying little tax. Or just basically inevitable outcome of capitalism. Middle and working class people from rich countries are less well off. Most economic growth only benefiting the 1%.

The less money you have the more you rely on social networks. Whether that is sister to pick up the kids from school. Doing shopping for nan. Whatever. But we've had a generation of extreme immigration. That has meant a huge strain on social housing. Splitting familes apart and breaking those networks, as kids can't get housing in the area. Even changing the culture of an area. Especially for older people, it is frightening.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Think the 90s and early 2000s there was a push for globalisation. Whether that was expansion of the eu, production going to china, multinational companies/super rich, bouncing about paying little tax. Or just basically inevitable outcome of capitalism. Middle and working class people from rich countries are less well off. Most economic growth only benefiting the 1%.

The less money you have the more you rely on social networks. Whether that is sister to pick up the kids from school. Doing shopping for nan. Whatever. But we've had a generation of extreme immigration. That has meant a huge strain on social housing. Splitting familes apart and breaking those networks, as kids can't get housing in the area. Even changing the culture of an area. Especially for older people, it is frightening.

I have sympathy for what you write, I'm in my 70s and was brought up in a period of great prosperity for most of the working class, our parents had opportunities that were not there before WW2 and they had aspirastion for their kids, jobs our parents were happy to have were looked down on and most disappeared with technology. I wanted to get on as much as the next guy and was lucky, but I've never lost my respect for people who do the vital support work which holds our society together. We need to realise there is dignity in labour.

 

[Finney Is Back]

But immigration figures are broadly the same. Just more people coming from further away now, and less able to migrate back to places like Poland etc. As @Finnyisback outlined your typical Brexit voter prefers European migrants (statistically) and there is a beautiful irony that these voters who are anti-immigrant, will have more rest of the world migration to the UK now.

It is happening already…. One of the companies I own is a tech company. My open software engineering roles were at least 50% filled with those from the EU. Pretty much every open role is now instead filled with an Indian or Nigerian national. A worker is a worker as far as I’m concerned but I know that isn’t the case for a number of the (on the quiet) racists from the older generation. This is the one delicious irony from Brexit that I cling to and love to trot out to the closet racists.

 

[Finney Is Back]

And then they vote Tory. Insane right.

FYI Govt spending per pupil is at least 3% down since 2010. Now if we can only point to what major change occured in 2010...

Edit: This is the fundamental problem with our media being a right wing mouthpiece. Right now the right and their Tory buddies are pointing to immigration, when in reality the issues for education and NHS under their ownership should be the talking point

Is that absolute number spending ignoring inflation and population growth or ‘real terms’ spending factoring one or both of those things in?

 

[Finney Is Back]

You’re like a walking Daily Mail headline. Some of the tangents you’re trying to take this conversation into are hilarious.

Here’s a real world example about why you’re chatting gonad*s. You’ve lauded the Australian/NZ points system as one we should undertake here. And speaking as someone who’s lived in both countries, the ticket certain parties utilise to get parts of the population on side is how horrific and uncontrolled their immigration is. So it doesn’t matter what system we have, a large percentage of any population will never be happy because they’ll be taken in by the frenzy politicians and certain media will whip them up into. It’s Politics 101 and genuinely laughable that people still fall for it

Rather than worrying about what certain parties are saying in NZ/Aus…. What is your take on how their points based immigration system works?

 

[Lilbaz]

Haha, you do make me laugh.

I guess I have to simplify it some more:

And how do you know who the 50 givers are and who the 100 takers are?

And even in your 100% infallible magic system. What if one of the 100s descendants contributes more than a million of the rest of the population?

The magical system is called a working visa. You have a job that pays enough to support you while you are here, or you have skills tbe country requires. Stay here long enough you can apply for british citizenship.

What if one of the decendents was a mass serial killer?

 

[DTA]

The magical system is called a working visa. You have a job that pays enough to support you while you are here, or you have skills tbe country requires. Stay here long enough you can apply for british citizenship.

What if one of the decendents was a mass serial killer?

working visa, great, no problem, how is that system implemented? Because the way it works now puts people off, or are not suitable for the type of workforce we need.

Along with words like invasion, hostile environment, etc etc.

 

[AuroRaman]

Rather than worrying about what certain parties are saying in NZ/Aus…. What is your take on how their points based immigration system works?

Worrying?

I think it's done wonders for both countries as they've been able to achieve high levels of immigration (Australia moreso than NZ) to fill live positions in skills shortage areas. It also provides immediate permanent residencies to individuals who have education and/or work experience in these areas and pass the points to apply for a visa (unlike the UK I believe?).

Considering the discussion in here, I find a delicious irony in remembering that it was predominantly UK nationals who outstayed their visas and tried to stay in the country illegally. I don't think we were at war at the time....

 

[Finney Is Back]

Worrying?

I think it's done wonders for both countries as they've been able to achieve high levels of immigration (Australia moreso than NZ) to fill live positions in skills shortage areas. It also provides immediate permanent residencies to individuals who have education and/or work experience in these areas and pass the points to apply for a visa (unlike the UK I believe?).

Considering the discussion in here, I find a delicious irony in remembering that it was predominantly UK nationals who outstayed their visas and tried to stay in the country illegally. I don't think we were at war at the time....

So in that case it seems that you are violently ageing with @Lilbaz?

Sorry, I’m not sure I understand the relevance of your second paragraph?

 

[AuroRaman]

So in that case it seems that you are violently ageing with @Lilbaz?

Sorry, I’m not sure I understand the relevance of your second paragraph?

I don’t think you understood the context of my original post regarding Aus/NZ

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don’t think you understood the context of my original post regarding Aus/NZ

Perhaps not but I think @Lilbaz is advocating an NZ/Aus style points scheme here that you think worked well in those countries…. Sounds like you two should get along…