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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

dingdongo said:
When there was talk of Sunak or Mordaunt being prepped behind the scenes last week I thought I heard that the issue was that even if the majority agreed to vote for one of them to make it quick and easy, then there was still nothing stopping some rogue members also throwing their hats in the ring and complicating the process again. I can't believe they even considered Truss as a potential leader in the first place, Let alone decided to back her! You have to hope they have learnt their lesson but you wouldn't hold your breath.
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The issue is that slightly > 33% of Tory MPs are now from the far right. So that Truss caucus could just throw their weight behind Braverman or Badenoch, and they’ll get someone on the final ballot (who the members will then vote for).

The only way to avoid that would be to put a 45% threshold on going out to members.
 
Glenda's Legs said:
Wow. So Truss's whole budget scrapped apart from 2 things already progressing through the legislative process.
How can Truss can survive the ridicule?
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Typically the only things that have been retained are bankers bonuses and stamp duty cuts for second home owners. So the bits for the rich :rolleyes:
 
Gutter Boy said:
We elect a parliament, not a president. Then parliament selects a leader and government. A PM is no different really from a chancellor or foreign secretary, they've always been appointed

Absolute shut show, yes, but the democratic line isn't relevant in our system
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We don’t need a complete change to a presidential system to allow us to make the legislative changes to stop this from happening again. We only need to make sure that legislation is introduced that says if there’s a change, or more than one change, in leadership of the party in power then a general election must be held.

Understand how the system works and we’re all powerless to do anything about it. The fixed term parliaments act should be repealed as well. As much as part of me thinks it will be entertaining when the boots on the other foot and they can’t do anything to stop Labour’s 5 year terms going forwards.

Completely selfish of the Tories to see that they’ve destroyed the country and that things are projected to get worse for ordinary people if they remain in power and still they refuse to give it up. They’ll happily push the country further and further into crisis just to keep their jobs and seats.

Jobs which it should be said - they are not in anyway competent of performing.
 
Gutter Boy said:
If 40 tories defect (potentially where this goes if truss tries to cling on) Starmer could reasonably become MP for the two years up to the GE. The only thing anyone ever votes for is their constituency MP
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I don’t think there’s any chance that large amount of MPs would defect. That would be completely unparalleled in political history. I’d be surprised if even two or three defect.
 
Craig_J said:
We don’t need a complete change to a presidential system to allow us to make the legislative changes to stop this from happening again. We only need to make sure that legislation is introduced that says if there’s a change, or more than one change, in leadership of the party in power then a general election must be held.

Understand how the system works and we’re all powerless to do anything about it. The fixed term parliaments act should be repealed as well. As much as part of me thinks it will be entertaining when the boots on the other foot and they can’t do anything to stop Labour’s 5 year terms going forwards.

Completely selfish of the Tories to see that they’ve destroyed the country and that things are projected to get worse for ordinary people if they remain in power and still they refuse to give it up. They’ll happily push the country further and further into crisis just to keep their jobs and seats.

Jobs which it should be said - they are not in anyway competent of performing.
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I still don't get the logic. The PM is anyone who commands the confidence of a majority of parliament. Over the 5 years of a parliament that can be as many or as few people as you want. It could be from different parties, it doesn't matter. All that a GE decides is the constitution of the 650 MPs, who then select their leader(s).

The fixed term parliament act was repealed (in March 2022). Now there only needs to be 50% + 1 votes of no confidence for there to be a GE, not 2/3rds.

The current situation won't last. But it will be dealt with from within, rather than without. The check of electoral wipe out is a check on real extremism, like has successfully started happening over the last fortnight.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Oh you recommend it? Thank you for the recommendation!

A number of things:

1. The already disenfranchised will use this. There was already dissonance with the political process. Now ‘the establishment has not listened to me again’ etc. It will feed this kind of narrative.

2. Boris was elected by the people. He was not removed by them. And there are examples of how this kind of coup tends to end badly.

3. To instigate true change you have to let things fail. Then re-elect afresh.

4. 2.5 years is an extremely small period of time to carry out your mandate. Impossible for anyone to achieve much especially with Covid sucking up 2 years.

As you may know I’m no fan. Boris was here because of Brexit. But personally I would stick with the elected incumbent who had one of largest popular mandates of living memory.
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@monkeybarry do you still think it was the right thing to do to eject Johnson? Democracy working as it should?

Yes he was pretty bad, but he had the peoples vote. Truss is possibly the least popular PM ever. What happened to the days of Cameron, Blair etc when we had functioning competent government? We’ve become a laughing stock. Losing investment, taxes, trade, direction, credibility and leadership post Brexit, it really has not delivered anything but steaming manure.

If the Conservatives want to preserve their party and the UK, they would do well to call a general election. Yes they would ceed power but they’d have a chance to regroup and purge their ranks of the nut jobs that led us down this perilous hole. If they don’t, they must be wiped out in the next GE.
 
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Gutter Boy said:
Change UK? SDP? National Labour? Liberal Unionists?
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Are those guys all still there/going? (Genuine question)

Ah, A quick wiki search shows it didn't last long, disbanded in the same year it started. I remember at the time they had high hopes didn't they
 
SpurMeUp said:
@monkeybarry do you still think it was the right thing to do to eject Johnson? Democracy working as it should?

Yes he was pretty bad, but he had the peoples vote. Truss is possibly the least popular PM ever. What happened to the days of Cameron, Blair etc when we had functioning competent government? We’ve become a laughing stock. Losing investment, taxes, trade, direction, credibility and leadership post Brexit, it really has not delivered anything but steaming manure.

If the Conservatives want to preserve their party and the UK, they would do well to call a general election. Yes they would ceed power but they’d have a chance to regroup and purge their ranks of the nut jobs that led us down this perilous hole. If they don’t, they must be wiped out in the next GE.
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Not quite sure why I'm getting pulled into this :D

But the answer is - yes.
Johnson was at a point where the party felt he needed to go.
IMHO he was incredibly damaging for the country and democracy.

Democracy working as it should? - wrong question.
Our Parliamentary system working as it should - yes.

Does our Parliamentary system operate to the democratic standards and outcomes we think it should?....that's the question.

Truss has been worse for the country's economy and reputation than Johnson for sure.
However, these events have been better for democracy - it has shown clearly the significant dangerous limitations in our system (see all of my arguments for not Brexiting. Interestingly a similar argument for Brexiting for some). That isn't Truss' fault. It's her fault she is out of her depth. It's the Conservative party's fault it got to this stage.

For clarity - and I appreciate this is a technical point; it is also how our Parliamentary system works, irrespective of how people feel - Johnson didn't have the vote of the people, the Tory party did. People need to be aware that any MP you vote in has influence on UK politics. They could also become PM.
Hopefully this debacle see's people vote with greater consideration.
I also suspect it'll see a push for reform in the manifestos of enough parties to make it a significant point of discussion.

We either need a mechanism where MP's are the only ones who can select a new leader - that's democratic as MPs are elected.
Ideally this would include some kind of influence from the house as a whole, not just the majority party.
And/or
A system whereby there is a trigger point that calls a GE. That would be difficult to design to stop it being used a political tool, however should act as a lever to ensure Party's act better.
And/
 
So, the Prime Minister has basically apologised to the people because the tory Conservative politic is useless.
Never thought I'd hear that!
 
monkeybarry said:
Not quite sure why I'm getting pulled into this :D

But the answer is - yes.
Johnson was at a point where the party felt he needed to go.
IMHO he was incredibly damaging for the country and democracy.

Democracy working as it should? - wrong question.
Our Parliamentary system working as it should - yes.

Does our Parliamentary system operate to the democratic standards and outcomes we think it should?....that's the question.

Truss has been worse for the country's economy and reputation than Johnson for sure.
However, these events have been better for democracy - it has shown clearly the significant dangerous limitations in our system (see all of my arguments for not Brexiting. Interestingly a similar argument for Brexiting for some). That isn't Truss' fault. It's her fault she is out of her depth. It's the Conservative party's fault it got to this stage.

For clarity - and I appreciate this is a technical point; it is also how our Parliamentary system works, irrespective of how people feel - Johnson didn't have the vote of the people, the Tory party did. People need to be aware that any MP you vote in has influence on UK politics. They could also become PM.
Hopefully this debacle see's people vote with greater consideration.
I also suspect it'll see a push for reform in the manifestos of enough parties to make it a significant point of discussion.

We either need a mechanism where MP's are the only ones who can select a new leader - that's democratic as MPs are elected.
Ideally this would include some kind of influence from the house as a whole, not just the majority party.
And/or
A system whereby there is a trigger point that calls a GE. That would be difficult to design to stop it being used a political tool, however should act as a lever to ensure Party's act better.
And/
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It is remarkable that our parliamentary democracy has functioned so well for so long without much update and evolution. And then Brexit broke it overnight. Some of this is on the process, rather the people. A process of sliding down through the middling to average to downright incompetent. But it is still a poisened chalice. Hunt will have to figure out what to do in April when businesses and households suffer energy costs. Doesn't matter who you are, you have a set of weak cards to play.

What I wanted to see is some clever fiscal policy to claw back some billions, give some to those in need, and invest in solar and renewables in a war-like government effort across the nation.

Your coget post really only needs one question in reply: was Truss chosen by the people?
 
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ricky2tricky4city said:
These are the current pathways as legislation/rules stand at the mo.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63289517
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1. She won't resign. Unless she has a good friend that convinces her to do so for her own dignity.

2. They won't any time soon because it would be politically a disaster. All eyes are on them and how they undercut democracy and change the rules.

3. This is the smart option. They will spend the next two years pushing the interests of the donors under the radar whilst Truss blusters on.
If she makes another fudge up, they'll call it an focus on the election after next.
It'll be harder for her to fudge up now as she'll be under scrutiny.

It's lame duck time.
Keep an eye on the shadows now, not the dispatch box.
 
Gutter Boy said:
That's it. That whole experiment, by all parties has been a disaster

Truss over Sunak
Corbyn over Burnham
Swinson over Davey
Farron over Lamb
etc.
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It needs the extra GE trigger too - so if MPs mess around for personal gain/similar a GE can be triggered. That will make them act responsibly.

Same with cross bench influence. They should try a say - a diluted one - to ensure the right candidate is chosen.

Anyone abusing the above will be ousted.
 
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