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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Lost Mango said:
Fair enough.
I do get triggered by the lazy journalism (not your intention) that don't challenge the 'will of the people' BS about Brexit, about representation in the house of commons, huge majorities, who has a manifesto mandate etc etc (even 'the Tories got all the big calls right' spoutings that haven't been shot down)

The holes in our democratic principles are massive but manageable if we actually acknowledge them rather than allow trite populist nonsense to be regurgitated and allowed to breath. This Brexit isn't a thing that was voted for - just a vague construct on leaving rather than staying and it wasn't a statistically meaningful vote.
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I take it you didn't like the way the vote went?
 
Lost Mango said:
It was chosen by a statistically insignificant margin of people. You wouldn't take an aspirin on the basis of a drug trial that rendered such results yet some people would base a whole economic and political strategy on such a meaningless outcome. Go figure.
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Maybe just maybe if all those who did not want it got off their fat arses and voted against it may not have happened.?
 
glorygloryeze said:
I take it you didn't like the way the vote went?
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Not the point I'm making.

Whether I supported it or not the scientific/mathematical significance doesn't change.
Basically making such massive decisions on what was as meaningful as a coin toss seems insane. Either way.

My bigger issue though is the follow up that morphs into an unquestionable 'will of the people' as some homogenous mass, like the 'huge' majority the Tories has somehow represents more than 50% of the people rather than the 27% it really does. Why can't there be acknowledgment that actually significant minorities (or even majorities) actually disagree and other points of views still retain validity?

Democracy, as in following the voice of the majority, does not depend on that meaning any other dissent is then ignored or 'never existed'.
 
Lost Mango said:
Not the point I'm making.

Whether I supported it or not the scientific/mathematical significance doesn't change.
Basically making such massive decisions on what was as meaningful as a coin toss seems insane. Either way.

My bigger issue though is the follow up that morphs into an unquestionable 'will of the people' as some homogenous mass, like the 'huge' majority the Tories has somehow represents more than 50% of the people rather than the 27% it really does. Why can't there be acknowledgment that actually significant minorities (or even majorities) actually disagree and other points of views still retain validity?

Democracy, as in following the voice of the majority, does not depend on that meaning any other dissent is then ignored or 'never existed'.
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Indeed.

At the very least, the closeness of the vote suggested that the softest of Brexits was the way to go - not the hardcore nutjob version with which we have been presented.
 
Mikey10 said:
Indeed.

At the very least, the closeness of the vote suggested that the softest of Brexits was the way to go - not the hardcore nutjob version with which we have been presented.
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Surely that ethos only applies in a country where proportionality exists in politics?
We have first past the post, winner takes all politics, whether the difference is one vote or one million.
 
Rorschach said:
A fair point, but reading the tea leaves on this I think Truss is going to bend on NI. Considering the complete lack of communication between the two sides for so long now I would see any communication as a positive development.
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I think she will and it would be smart too both because it makes sense given the deal signed and Brexit won't be a winning strategy at the next election anyway.

Feels like it's only a matter of time until there's a referendum on a United Ireland anyway, probably within the next 10-20 years.
 
Very glad to see lots of mainstream media and prominent political and famous figures supporting women in Iran who don’t want to wear the hijab. I often feel the liberal media are afraid to go near anything relating to Islamic culture or law. You normally get the same old BS “The women want to wear the hijab and niqab”. If you’re a liberal, then you should want to empower women.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Very glad to see lots of mainstream media and prominent political and famous figures supporting women in Iran who don’t want to wear the hijab. I often feel the liberal media are afraid to go near anything relating to Islamic culture or law. You normally get the same old BS “The women want to wear the hijab and niqab”. If you’re a liberal, then you should want to empower women.
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It is great and expected. Your hot take, as usual, is weird and based on fiction.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Very glad to see lots of mainstream media and prominent political and famous figures supporting women in Iran who don’t want to wear the hijab. I often feel the liberal media are afraid to go near anything relating to Islamic culture or law. You normally get the same old BS “The women want to wear the hijab and niqab”. If you’re a liberal, then you should want to empower women.
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100%. if there's one thing the MSM dont mention, it's anything to do with Islam or Muslims.

islamophobia_in_the_press_composite.jpg
 
Diamond Lights said:
100%. if there's one thing the MSM dont mention, it's anything to do with Islam or Muslims.

islamophobia_in_the_press_composite.jpg
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That’s the negative press which Islam gets which I don’t condone or support. However, when I’ve had conversations with other liberals about the hijab the responses I’ve typically gotten where that women want to wear them because it empowers them. This is anecdotal to an extent, but yes I do feel liberals are afraid to go near certain subjects through fear of being called a racist or Islamaphobic. I’ll say again that I don’t support the views on the headlines you posted from the British press but that is different to this issue.
 
If there was an award for "looking the most awkward whilst receiving applause" Truss is absolutely up there. The following award ceremony would be a sort of endless David Lynch - esque nightmarish purgatory of the masses clapping while she squirms / gurns / beams a disturbing cheshire cat smile. I thought it was maybe that she's questioning whether the applause is ironic but that would indicate a le El of awareness that is beyond someone who thinks pies are grown somewhere, those heady days of being a lib dem in the cherry pie orchards of Leeds...
 
Jurgen the German said:
Which part is based on fiction?
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Firstly, as someone who was worked in the broadcast/media industry and specifically news for almost 20 years (including the organisations that people cant make up their mind if they're too right or too left), I can tell you from a much more informed position than you that the 'liberal media are too afraid' of tackling certain subjects is complete fiction. You're getting confused because of the rather odd social media/youtube accounts you view and share bits from, plus your fetishism for problematic 'intellectuals' telling you what the 'liberal media is doing to attack who you are and your way of life'.

I'll also bring up the point you've made about 'the libs' saying women want to feel empowered wearing the hijab etc. Whilst there are brave women (and plenty of men too which is an incredible shift) in Iran protesting the draconian laws against them and what they must wear, in France there are brave women protesting their right to wear religious wear. The commonality and what should be focused on is brave women standing up for their right to choose and to have autonomy over all aspects of their lives. I suspect you don't really care about empowering women or any other oppressed groups, as your recent posts have outed.

What you think are 'liberals' or 'the left', the bad people you're scared of, are in fact the very people out protesting in Iran at the moment. Like I've said to you before, when you can't muster so much as a shrug against the danger and violence of the extreme right, but want to police the left (whilst disguising your actual views as 'the right are too far gone'), you are complicit in the continued oppression that exists in society.

You made yourself look like a bit of a rooster previously in this thread with your hot take on Tom Daley not calling out homophobia in brown countries. This could be another teachable moment for you to take stock and educate yourself, and maybe pull yourself out of the incelism disguised as intellectualism rabbit hole you've gone into. I don't think it will be but I'm willing to give you that chance.
 
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AuroRaman said:
Firstly, as someone who was worked in the broadcast/media industry and specifically news for almost 20 years (including the organisations that people cant make up their mind if they're too right or too left), I can tell you from a much more informed position than you that the 'liberal media are too afraid' of tackling certain subjects is complete fiction. You're getting confused because the rather odd social media/youtube accounts you view and share bits from, plus your fetishism for problematic 'intellectuals' telling you what the 'liberal media is doing to attack who you are and your way of life'.

I see you've edited your posts so I'll bring up the point you've made about women wanting to feel empowered wearing the hijab etc. Whilst there are brave women (and plenty of men too which is an incredible shift) in Iran protesting the draconian laws against them and what they must wear, in France there are brave women protesting their right to wear religious wear. The commonality and what should be focused on is brave women standing up for their right to choose and to have autonomy over all aspects of their lives. I suspect you don't really care about empowering women or any other oppressed groups, as your recent posts have outed.

What you think are 'liberals' or 'the left', the bad people you're scared of, are in fact the very people out protesting in Iran at the moment. Like I've said to you before, when you can't muster so much as a shrug against the danger and violence of the extreme right, but want to police the left (whilst disguising your actual views as 'the right are too far gone'), you are complicit in the continued oppression that exists in society.

You made yourself look like a bit of a rooster previously in this thread with your hot take on Tom Daley not calling out homophobia in brown countries. This could be another teachable moment for you to take stock and educate yourself, and maybe pull yourself out of the incelism disguised as intellectualism rabbit hole you've gone into. I don't think it will be but I'm willing to give you that chance.
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She’s definitely socially awkward. Not a natural leader. It’s a good strategy letting the tories destroy themselves but will that be enough to get labour over the line in the next election? One thing we should have learned from Brexit and Trump is the polls don’t mean anything. It does seem like people want a change though.
 
AuroRaman said:
Firstly, as someone who was worked in the broadcast/media industry and specifically news for almost 20 years (including the organisations that people cant make up their mind if they're too right or too left), I can tell you from a much more informed position than you that the 'liberal media are too afraid' of tackling certain subjects is complete fiction. You're getting confused because of the rather odd social media/youtube accounts you view and share bits from, plus your fetishism for problematic 'intellectuals' telling you what the 'liberal media is doing to attack who you are and your way of life'.

I'll also bring up the point you've made about 'the libs' saying women want to feel empowered wearing the hijab etc. Whilst there are brave women (and plenty of men too which is an incredible shift) in Iran protesting the draconian laws against them and what they must wear, in France there are brave women protesting their right to wear religious wear. The commonality and what should be focused on is brave women standing up for their right to choose and to have autonomy over all aspects of their lives. I suspect you don't really care about empowering women or any other oppressed groups, as your recent posts have outed.

What you think are 'liberals' or 'the left', the bad people you're scared of, are in fact the very people out protesting in Iran at the moment. Like I've said to you before, when you can't muster so much as a shrug against the danger and violence of the extreme right, but want to police the left (whilst disguising your actual views as 'the right are too far gone'), you are complicit in the continued oppression that exists in society.

You made yourself look like a bit of a rooster previously in this thread with your hot take on Tom Daley not calling out homophobia in brown countries. This could be another teachable moment for you to take stock and educate yourself, and maybe pull yourself out of the incelism disguised as intellectualism rabbit hole you've gone into. I don't think it will be but I'm willing to give you that chance.
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Who are these “problematic” intellectuals just out of interest? I try to follow people on social media and the media in general who present different views. I consider myself centre-left and the majority of people I follow are left leaning, but it’s good to get some perspective from the other side of the debate, otherwise everyone ends up in their own bubble which isn’t great for public discourse.

As much as it is great that women in Iran feel they want to ditch the hijab, you’d probably be surprised to know that I would actually support anyone’s rights to wear them if they choose to do so. I don’t quite understand it as I don’t like what that Burka/hijab/niqab stands for, but who am I to tell people what to wear or what they can’t wear? As much as I don’t like it, I’d never be in favour of banning any item of clothing. I’d make exceptions and insist they be removed in places where security is an issue; banks, airports etc. if I were face to face with a doctor, I must be honest, I would want to see their face and their eyes as you can tell a lot about how a conversation is going through body language. That’s just my take. But thanks for telling me I don’t care about women when you’ve never met me before.

I do feel the left have lost their way a bit recently. Hence why we’ve not been in power in the UK since 2010. There’s a myriad of reasons for that, but ultimately I want the left to be smarter and be more aware of how they are alienating well meaning, good people (as your post above has). It may come from a good place, but it comes across preachy, people don’t like being lectured or told they are racist or islamophobic when we could be doing more to bring in more allies. By telling them what words are acceptable, policing language, telling them what attitudes are acceptable, I just think it’s so silly and it does the opposite of what it intends to do. That doesn’t mean im not against Trump and Putin and the tories. I think I’ve made my feelings clear about Trump and the tories over the years. I think Trump has done irreparable damage to democracy, even if he doesn’t run/win the next election. The Republicans don’t believe in democracy anymore, unless they win of course, but they don’t believe election results when they lose. Maybe sometimes I lose perspective and don’t criticise the right as much as I should do. I just want the left to do better.

I get things wrong, I’ll hold my hands up in threads whether it’s admitting I was wrong about the ability of a spurs player or admitting I could have worded things differently when talking about politics as I have done on occasion. What I won’t stop doing is calling things out when I think they don’t make sense or when something isn’t right. Whether that’s the left or the right. Happy to take things on board. I’d invite you to do the same and perhaps not write such a patronising, sanctimonious post. I could probably predict who will like your post to a man and that’s fine if you want the same people to applaud it, but if you want to debate or help people learn as you say you do, I’m not entirely sure certain paragraphs will gain you any allies beyond the ones you already have even if you do make some perfectly reasonable and valid points :)
 
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