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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Robspur12 said:
They are already in the mainstream. Social media and brexit has made sure of that. The overton window has already moved in the last 6 years. But the current FPTP system weakens the progressive parties and amplifies the right especially the Tories.
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Im sure you know my thoughts on Brexit. But like what I’m saying to Scara about Overton’s theory. The ground swell of support for Brexit didn’t appear accidentally, nor was it spontaneously manifested. A decade or so ago most people had no strong view either way. Giving Farage et al airtime and therefore legitimising their view point amongst other techniques led to that shift if the window. Also wasn’t electing your EuroMP done through proportional representation? If I remember correctly and it was, considering the votes UKIP got and what that led to, it is another reason to keep FBTP.


So Brexit has happened and we have a government that is pandering to the worst parts of our society with thinly veiled nods to racism and distain for the working class, it’s happened already so why not allow PR which sounds like a fairer system… well you are making the assumption that this is as bad as it gets. It is not, It can and will be worse if we are not watchful.
 
DTA said:
Im sure you know my thoughts on Brexit. But like what I’m saying to Scara about Overton’s theory. The ground swell of support for Brexit didn’t appear accidentally, nor was it spontaneously manifested. A decade or so ago most people had no strong view either way. Giving Farage et al airtime and therefore legitimising their view point amongst other techniques led to that shift if the window. Also wasn’t electing your EuroMP done through proportional representation? If I remember correctly and it was, considering the votes UKIP got and what that led to, it is another reason to keep FBTP.


So Brexit has happened and we have a government that is pandering to the worst parts of our society with thinly veiled nods to racism and distain for the working class, it’s happened already so why not allow PR which sounds like a fairer system… well you are making the assumption that this is as bad as it gets. It is not, It can and will be worse if we are not watchful.
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One of the reasons ukip got in in the first place is because of low turn out in eu elections.
Those that cared are those who want change, they voted.
Ukip got airtime on the back of that and their case grew.
 
glasgowspur said:
One of the reasons ukip got in in the first place is because of low turn out in eu elections.
Those that cared are those who want change, they voted.
Ukip got airtime on the back of that and their case grew.
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yep that is completely in keeping with my point.
 
Baleforce said:
Yeah, it’s the madness we now live in. The winner of this internal fight will be the one most committed to harming the national electorate.

This was just Sunak ticking the “I hate the poors too” box. He’s had a pop at those on benefits as well.
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I do enjoy dipping into this thread from time to time to read the blind partisan posts from the vocal majority here. You're a fascinating, if disproportionate, bunch. It's a remarkable thing and I am privileged to witness it
 
DTA said:
Im sure you know my thoughts on Brexit. But like what I’m saying to Scara about Overton’s theory. The ground swell of support for Brexit didn’t appear accidentally, nor was it spontaneously manifested. A decade or so ago most people had no strong view either way. Giving Farage et al airtime and therefore legitimising their view point amongst other techniques led to that shift if the window. Also wasn’t electing your EuroMP done through proportional representation? If I remember correctly and it was, considering the votes UKIP got and what that led to, it is another reason to keep FBTP.


So Brexit has happened and we have a government that is pandering to the worst parts of our society with thinly veiled nods to racism and distain for the working class, it’s happened already so why not allow PR which sounds like a fairer system… well you are making the assumption that this is as bad as it gets. It is not, It can and will be worse if we are not watchful.
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But there could be enough safeguards in the voting system to mean that those with the tiniest proportion of votes are eliminated. You could have first and second preferences for example and more than 1 round of voting. The problem with FPTP is that a small number of seats determine the election result and there is really only likely to be Tories or Labour in power. And most likely the former.
 
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JerusalemMan said:
I do enjoy dipping into this thread from time to time to read the blind partisan posts from the vocal majority here. You're a fascinating, if disproportionate, bunch. It's a remarkable thing and I am privileged to witness it
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Even if I was to accept your position that it is the vocal majority that are "blindly partisan," to me it seems that no one really changes their view or accepts they were wrong. It's hypocrisy of the highest order to say otherwise.
 
DTA said:
But what Overton proposed was a way to get those fringe or extremist ideas into the window. People that are focusing on the window are missing the core premise of his theory.

and again to my point giving extremist legitimacy by air time (turbo charged with social media and paid propaganda and weaponised targeting) will move the window. Which is pretty much exactly Overton’s proposition.
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Unfortunately the author isn't about to clarify.

There seems to be two opinions on this, one from those who seem to wish politics would stay in the 1970s when outdated political policies were rife and those who with whom he worked at the time of constructing his theory.

I believe the latter to be a far more sound source.
 
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Robspur12 said:
But there could be enough safeguards in the voting system to mean that those with the tiniest proportion of votes are eliminated. You could have first and second preferences for example and more than 1 round of voting. The problem with FPTP is that a small number of seats determine the election result and there is really only likely to be Tories or Labour in power. And most likely the former.
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Without FPTP, UKIP would have a reasonably strong voice in parliament right now.
 
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Baleforce said:
It’s gone far beyond partisan politics, it’s now an issue of basic human decency, and neither Sunak or Truss have any.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1555290958404747269
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Its so weird to hear a supposedly highly-educated politician, let alone one with aspirations of becoming PM, regularly using terms like ‘lefty’ and ‘woke mob’. Either there’s a complete lack of self-respect there or we’re at the end game where pandering to flag nonces is the norm in the UK.
 
Robspur12 said:
Instead they've been absorbed by the right of the Tory party. It is not just PR Vs FPTP. There are alternatives in between such as first and second preferences etc.
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In some ways, yes.

But the more extreme and concerning opinions regularly spouted by UKIP types have not been. No mainstream party can or could accept those.
 
AuroRaman said:
Its so weird to hear a supposedly highly-educated politician, let alone one with aspirations of becoming PM, regularly using terms like ‘lefty’ and ‘woke mob’. Either there’s a complete lack of self-respect there or we’re at the end game where pandering to flag nonces is the norm in the UK.
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It’s a real problem, people I feel don’t realise how serious it could get.
 
Baleforce said:
The coercion of the BBC into false balance played a part too.

That was also a carefully orchestrated long term plan.
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Yes, and they’ve still not addressed it, still running scared of the Tories on the board.

5Live in particular are ripe for being used as an unwitting tool - I’d bet they’re doing no vetting of the texts they read out from “John in Weymouth” who just happens to have a view to the right of the topic they’ve just covered.

It would be very easy for the Tufton Street think tanks to get their position laundered by an anonymised text from a “listener”.
 
AuroRaman said:
Its so weird to hear a supposedly highly-educated politician, let alone one with aspirations of becoming PM, regularly using terms like ‘lefty’ and ‘woke mob’. Either there’s a complete lack of self-respect there or we’re at the end game where pandering to flag nonces is the norm in the UK.
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Yes, it’s really unedifying.

Without hyperbole, it’s straight out of the fascist playbook. Dehumanize a group and it’s easier to mobilize against their interests and rights.

They’re walking through the door Trump opened.

They’re misrepresenting scrutiny as a witch-hunt, positioning themselves as the victim and - Dorries in particular - likes to conflate the leader with the state, branding opposition as treason. Which is another fascist tactic.
 
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