Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[scaramanga]

But a complacent media can unwittingly introduce a hitherto largely unconsidered position and a complicit media can do so intentionally. This leads and foments opinion that actually has a smaller base and is more fringe than it actually is. So a hard, small base is misrepresented as having a foothold that it doesn’t really have.

Nope. If those opinions are outside the bounds of what the public will find acceptable then they simply won't accept them and they'll die.

If they're listened to and taken seriously by the public then they're already within the window - that's the point of the theory.

 

[DTA]

Nope. If those opinions are outside the bounds of what the public will find acceptable then they simply won't accept them and they'll die.

If they're listened to and taken seriously by the public then they're already within the window - that's the point of the theory.

I think that you completely misunderstood the theory.

from the man himself:

“Joseph Overton, a libertarian think tanker who developed the concept at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy in Michigan in the mid-1990s, sought to move this “window of political possibilities” and bring unpopular ideas into the mainstream. The most effective way to do this, he proposed, was not to advocate for minor, incremental changes to an already accepted idea, but to make the case for a currently “unthinkable” idea, stating it cogently and provoking an informed discussion. These efforts would make radical ideas look more normal, nudging them into the “acceptable” category, and eventually making them politically viable“

So giving extreme ideas “airtime” makes them more “normal” which was mine and @Hotshot-Tottenham point.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Your modern Tory doesn't even attempt to hide his contempt for lower class British people.


https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...rishi-sunak-taking-money-deprived-urban-areas

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I think they might lean on Wes Streeting quite a bit in an election campaign, a bit like Johnson started doing with Sunak in 19

I hope not. He is another one who would not look out of place on the Tory front bench.

 

[scaramanga]

I think that you completely misunderstood the theory.

from the man himself:

“Joseph Overton, a libertarian think tanker who developed the concept at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy in Michigan in the mid-1990s, sought to move this “window of political possibilities” and bring unpopular ideas into the mainstream. The most effective way to do this, he proposed, was not to advocate for minor, incremental changes to an already accepted idea, but to make the case for a currently “unthinkable” idea, stating it cogently and provoking an informed discussion. These efforts would make radical ideas look more normal, nudging them into the “acceptable” category, and eventually making them politically viable“

So giving extreme ideas “airtime” makes them more “normal” which was mine and @Hotshot-Tottenham point.

If you read the explanation from the Mackinac Institute (those Overton worked with when publishing the theory) that's not how it's described.

The window frames boundaries for politicians to work within, not a political tactic.

That's not to say the window can't move, obviously it does. But that's a slow progression, driven mainly by the public and not those in politics. Occasionally ideas come from the edges and take hold, but that's still not fast. If an idea is already acceptable then it's within the window.

 

[scaramanga]

Your modern Tory doesn't even attempt to hide his contempt for lower class British people.


https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...rishi-sunak-taking-money-deprived-urban-areas

Let's assume that quote hasn't been taken out of context and completely mischaracterised, why should he?

What have they achieved that deserves respect instead?

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

Let's assume that quote hasn't been taken out of context and completely mischaracterised, why should he?

What have they achieved that deserves respect instead?

Are board steward elections coming up? You seem to be posturing to appeal to a particularly repellent base.

 

[scaramanga]

Are board steward elections coming up? You seem to be posturing to appeal to a particularly repellent base.

Come on, be honest. It might not be an opinion that you make public, but I bet they at least make you feel icky.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Let's assume that quote hasn't been taken out of context and completely mischaracterised, why should he?

What have they achieved that deserves respect instead?

Lol, how could it have been taken out of context? He is clearly bragging about taking funding out of poor urban areas and pumping it into wealthy Tory ones.

 

[scaramanga]

Lol, how could it have been taken out of context? He is clearly bragging about taking funding out of poor urban areas and pumping it into wealthy Tory ones.

For starters, the policy wasn't about rich/poor - it was about rural/urban. Not all rural areas are rich - plenty of them are absolute holes.

The Labour policy prioritised urban needs over others and left rural areas pretty much ignored - mainly because they get most of their votes from those areas.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

For starters, the policy wasn't about rich/poor - it was about rural/urban. Not all rural areas are rich - plenty of them are absolute holes.

The Labour policy prioritised urban needs over others and left rural areas pretty much ignored - mainly because they get most of their votes from those areas.

Deprived urban areas to places like this, Tunbridge Wells. Yeah that is in desperate need of government funds, Hull, not so much. Are you kidding?

 

[Baleforce]

There is a reason Sunak said that in a mates garden and not to the press.

He said the quiet bit out loud, it's been leaked so that the membership hear it, rather than as an attack.

He probably leaked it himself, his campaign is in a mess, he can't throw anything at Truss that the membership don't already love about her.

 

[scaramanga]

Deprived urban areas to places like this, Tunbridge Wells. Yeah that is in desperate need of government funds, Hull, not so much. Are you kidding?

Hence my comment about context. Sunak was talking about the county when he said that - Kent has some parts you'd think were in the north if it weren't for the accents.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Hence my comment about context. Sunak was talking about the county when he said that - Kent has some parts you'd think were in the north if it weren't for the accents.

Ha, ha,ha!

 

[Robspur12]

I don’t agree with that at all. Their views should be shunned and be given no oxygen.

Bringing them into the mainstream conversation just gives them legitimacy… same with terrorist and their world view.

They are already in the mainstream. Social media and brexit has made sure of that. The overton window has already moved in the last 6 years. But the current FPTP system weakens the progressive parties and amplifies the right especially the Tories.

 

[DTA]

There is a reason Sunak said that in a mates garden and not to the press.

He said the quiet bit out loud, it's been leaked so that the membership hear it, rather than as an attack.

He probably leaked it himself, his campaign is in a mess, he can't throw anything at Truss that the membership don't already love about her.

I actually had this thought as well. This will play well with the Tory members. He probably done it on purpose.

 

[Baleforce]

I actually had this thought as well. This will play well with the Tory members. He probably done it on purpose.

Yeah, it’s the madness we now live in. The winner of this internal fight will be the one most committed to harming the national electorate.

This was just Sunak ticking the “I hate the poors too” box. He’s had a pop at those on benefits as well.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Yeah, it’s the madness we now live in. The winner of this internal fight will be the one most committed to harming the national electorate.

This was just Sunak ticking the “I hate the poors too” box. He’s had a pop at those on benefits as well.

Our democratic process has been fundamentally undermined. I posted that this will be the 2nd UK Prime Minister chosen by 160,000 people, but I was wrong. In the last 5 years this will be the 3rd right!? May, Boris and now Truss all chosen by a fraction of the nation.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Our democratic process has been fundamentally undermined. I posted that this will be the 2nd UK Prime Minister chosen by 160,000 people, but I was wrong. In the last 5 years this will be the 3rd right!? May, Boris and now Truss all chosen by a fraction of the nation.

Most prime ministers before we chosen by about 300 people. It's just what happens in a parliamentary, rather than a presidential, system.

If you'd rather give more power to that individual, at the expense of parliament - that's the argument to make.

 

[DTA]

If you read the explanation from the Mackinac Institute (those Overton worked with when publishing the theory) that's not how it's described.

The window frames boundaries for politicians to work within, not a political tactic.

That's not to say the window can't move, obviously it does. But that's a slow progression, driven mainly by the public and not those in politics. Occasionally ideas come from the edges and take hold, but that's still not fast. If an idea is already acceptable then it's within the window.

But what Overton proposed was a way to get those fringe or extremist ideas into the window. People that are focusing on the window are missing the core premise of his theory.

and again to my point giving extremist legitimacy by air time (turbo charged with social media and paid propaganda and weaponised targeting) will move the window. Which is pretty much exactly Overton’s proposition.