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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Danishfurniturelover said:
I think Ed Milliband would have done well.

Personally I liked Corbyn but admit the could have been risks there.
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Not sure if its a good or bad thing, but while a left-wing 'maverick' like Corbyn is unelectable in the UK, a right-wing equivalent is electable. The media, traditional establishment - and British culture - has a right-wing bias. If you look at the data since we started voting this is the case.

Generally, this means even if the right-wing leader is a little nuts the economic foundation is not compromised too much. On the flip side, left-wingers are more prone to be looser and free-spending. Now however, we have a right-wing loon whose instincts are to spend his way out of any problems. That can only go on so long.

The truth of the matter is that the UK has been pretty prosperous since New Labour, through Cameron, the issues were more structural - how wealth was shared - but now, we will face more challanges. My inclination is the Conservatives are sitting on Boris' frivolous Covid spending and a slight downturn because of Brexit. One of these in isolation wouldn't be too bad, but having both is far from ideal. I would have far prefered Corbyn nationalising rail and key industries, making some socialist shake-ups, to what we've got now. It might have offered some actual refreshment. But it is so hard for the UK to try it. It is not in our Angolo-Saxon instincts. Corbyn wasn't greatly different to say France's traditional politics. They have a lot of government-owned industries and left-leaning political philosophies.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Not sure if its a good or bad thing, but while a left-wing 'maverick' like Corbyn is unelectable in the UK, a right-wing equivalent is electable. The media, traditional establishment - and British culture - has a right-wing bias. If you look at the data since we started voting this is the case.

Generally, this means even if the right-wing leader is a little nuts the economic foundation is not compromised too much. On the flip side, left-wingers are more prone to be looser and free-spending. Now however, we have a right-wing loon whose instincts are to spend his way out of any problems. That can only go on so long.

The truth of the matter is that the UK has been pretty prosperous since New Labour, through Cameron, the issues were more structural - how wealth was shared - but now, we will face more challanges. My inclination is the Conservatives are sitting on Boris' frivolous Covid spending and a slight downturn because of Brexit. One of these in isolation wouldn't be too bad, but having both is far from ideal. I would have far prefered Corbyn nationalising rail and key industries, making some socialist shake-ups, to what we've got now. It might have offered some actual refreshment. But it is so hard for the UK to try it. It is not in our Angolo-Saxon instincts. Corbyn wasn't greatly different to say France's traditional politics. They have a lot of government-owned industries and left-leaning political philosophies.
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Have we ever had a leader as far to the right as corbyn was to left?
 
SpurMeUp said:
Not sure if its a good or bad thing, but while a left-wing 'maverick' like Corbyn is unelectable in the UK, a right-wing equivalent is electable. The media, traditional establishment - and British culture - has a right-wing bias. If you look at the data since we started voting this is the case.

Generally, this means even if the right-wing leader is a little nuts the economic foundation is not compromised too much. On the flip side, left-wingers are more prone to be looser and free-spending. Now however, we have a right-wing loon whose instincts are to spend his way out of any problems. That can only go on so long.

The truth of the matter is that the UK has been pretty prosperous since New Labour, through Cameron, the issues were more structural - how wealth was shared - but now, we will face more challanges. My inclination is the Conservatives are sitting on Boris' frivolous Covid spending and a slight downturn because of Brexit. One of these in isolation wouldn't be too bad, but having both is far from ideal. I would have far prefered Corbyn nationalising rail and key industries, making some socialist shake-ups, to what we've got now. It might have offered some actual refreshment. But it is so hard for the UK to try it. It is not in our Angolo-Saxon instincts. Corbyn wasn't greatly different to say France's traditional politics. They have a lot of government-owned industries and left-leaning political philosophies.
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Johnson is not the right wing equivalent of Corbyn.

We have never had a far or farish right leader. People who don't like Johnson accuse him of that but it is untrue and is actually the basis for the culture war and why the Midlands and North left Labour last time out. A bit of and it is literally a bit of control on immigration is not far right.

Benefits have gone up as have taxes, prison places are actually falling(wife works in prison reform) some slight and only very slight reform of the NHS (something no other country has)

A few reforms on mass protests so nob ends can't lie down on the motorway is not a bad thing.
 
A lot of right wing politicians are really just concerned about themselves. Say whatever it takes to get the votes, do as little as possible and get rich in the process.
 
Jordinho said:
A lot of right wing politicians are really just concerned about themselves. Say whatever it takes to get the votes, do as little as possible and get rich in the process.
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That's not right wing politics though, that's just selfishness.
To be fair theres a lot of rich left sided politicians, i use the term politician very loosely.
 
glasgowspur said:
That's not right wing politics though, that's just selfishness.
To be fair theres a lot of rich left sided politicians, i use the term politician very loosely.
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That's why being a politician should never be someone's primary occupation. I think there should be term limits on elected positions. They should get out in the real world and work for living, although most of them will just find some cushy consultancy gig and continue behind the scenes instead.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Johnson is not the right wing equivalent of Corbyn.

We have never had a far or farish right leader. People who don't like Johnson accuse him of that but it is untrue and is actually the basis for the culture war and why the Midlands and North left Labour last time out. A bit of and it is literally a bit of control on immigration is not far right.

Benefits have gone up as have taxes, prison places are actually falling(wife works in prison reform) some slight and only very slight reform of the NHS (something no other country has)

A few reforms on mass protests so nob ends can't lie down on the motorway is not a bad thing.
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Boris is quite centrist even left leaning occasionally. My point was he is a maverick not that he is especially right wing. Corbyn was also a ‘wild card’ candidate someone outside the mainstream who offered something different. The UK can handle that when the maverick is right leaning but won’t if they’re socialist; that is a stretch too far. The UK will elect safe socialists like Blair.

if you look at the nations votes over time - say 100 years - you can see we have a small right leaning bias in general. In the US it’s the opposite.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Probably. It is debatable. If you look at Corbyns manifesto his policies were not as far left as the media and his image would have you believe.
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Badly worded tbh, have we ever openly had a leader as far to the right as corbyn was to the left would have been closer to the mark.
How much of a difference was there between his policies and his principles though.
Its probably more acceptable to be left leaning than right leaning now, at least in public, in the privacy of the polling booth not so much it would seem.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Johnson is not the right wing equivalent of Corbyn.

We have never had a far or farish right leader. People who don't like Johnson accuse him of that but it is untrue and is actually the basis for the culture war and why the Midlands and North left Labour last time out. A bit of and it is literally a bit of control on immigration is not far right.

Benefits have gone up as have taxes, prison places are actually falling(wife works in prison reform) some slight and only very slight reform of the NHS (something no other country has)

A few reforms on mass protests so nob ends can't lie down on the motorway is not a bad thing.
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This is a really interesting point.
There are rarely extreme l/r leaders in a democracy - you don't put your agenda in charge, you keep them on the backbenches and occasionally in cabinet out of sight so they can influence and manipulate from there.
That's exactly what Corbyn was. He was not a usual leadership type candidate- that's why he got the gig in first place, as a protest vote to shake things up. Nobody expected him to win.
He's ideal to be in the party and make his noises, the palatable ones of which will be listened to and considered for policy. But to be at the cente of leadership or policy development, he is too extreme.
 
monkeybarry said:
This is a really interesting point.
There are rarely extreme l/r leaders in a democracy - you don't put your agenda in charge, you keep them on the backbenches and occasionally in cabinet out of sight so they can influence and manipulate from there.
That's exactly what Corbyn was. He was not a usual leadership type candidate- that's why he got the gig in first place, as a protest vote to shake things up. Nobody expected him to win.
He's ideal to be in the party and make his noises, the palatable ones of which will be listened to and considered for policy. But to be at the cente of leadership or policy development, he is too extreme.
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I'd be willing to bet corbyn was a good local mp, did a good job for his constituency, looked after them individually regardless of their politics and MP's like that are the back bone of the system.
I'm also confident that there is a lot of them in parliament, on all sides.
But he isn't leader material.
Neither is bojo (i doubt bojo is even a reasonable MP) or Davies and i have serious doubts about starmer now.
I see no leaders, fudge i'm not even sure i see any decent cabinet members.
Thats the real reason corbyn and the shake up project failed, the cream didn't rise to the top because there is no cream. You shake a bottle of poop and all that floats to the top is poop.
 
Anyone interested in politics in the Asia-Pacific ? The son of a previously ousted dictatator has been lawfully elected into power.

.... The Philippines may be one of Asia’s oldest and largest democracies, but its continued embrace of strongman leaders is a wake-up call that liberal democracy’s messages of equality and rule of law will eventually run hollow once voters get tired of the same old heroes and political dynasties....

https://time.com/6174739/bongbong-marcos-election-philippines/

Way different way of thinking in this time zone compared to "the west"



Sent from my SM-T865 using Fapatalk
 
glasgowspur said:
I'd be willing to bet corbyn was a good local mp, did a good job for his constituency, looked after them individually regardless of their politics and MP's like that are the back bone of the system.
I'm also confident that there is a lot of them in parliament, on all sides.
But he isn't leader material.
Neither is bojo (i doubt bojo is even a reasonable MP) or Davies and i have serious doubts about starmer now.
I see no leaders, fudge i'm not even sure i see any decent cabinet members.
Thats the real reason corbyn and the shake up project failed, the cream didn't rise to the top because there is no cream. You shake a bottle of poop and all that floats to the top is poop.
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I may loathe that bitch Lucas but I know two people who have contacted her for help in Brighton. One of them about a dispute with a solicitor.

She might be the worst MP in the commons. SHE IS.

Turns out though she is quite good and diligent with her constituents.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
I may loathe that bitch Lucas but I know two people who have contacted her for help in Brighton. One of them about a dispute with a solicitor.

She might be the worst MP in the commons. SHE IS.

Turns out though she is quite good and diligent with her constituents.
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There's no doubt in my mind that there is a void in leadership in all the parties, that is why we have the likes of lucas, corbyn, davies and even starmer rising to the top.
There just isn't anyone else.
I'm sure they are all good constituency MP's, decent and diligent people who do what they should be doing, but they are not natural leaders and should be nowhere near those positions.
I've not included boris because to be honest I can't believe he is a good MP, looking out for others doesn't appear to be a skill set he has.
Like or loathe their politics in the past there was at least a couple on either side that you could at least respect and expect to do a good job, now i can't see anyone.
 
Grays_1890 said:
This is key for me, I have a pretty simple view of politics which is why I hate party politics now, best person locally for the job rather should always get the role and you get the government you deserve, unfortunately for too many its like football loyalty and we have some plebs and liars
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I was out for meal with some friends a couple of weeks ago and they started talking politics.
5 out of the 8 complained relentlessly about the SNP (and rightly so) but said they couldn't bring themselves to vote tory, Labour were useless so.......
I tried to explain that voting tory didn't make you a tory, but as soon as you say i can never vote for a party you are screwed, the opposition no longer needs to work for your vote, they can do what they want and you allowed them to do.
Don’t like the government, vote against.
If you don't its your fault, stop moaning about it.
 
glasgowspur said:
I was out for meal with some friends a couple of weeks ago and they started talking politics.
5 out of the 8 complained relentlessly about the SNP (and rightly so) but said they couldn't bring themselves to vote tory, Labour were useless so.......
I tried to explain that voting tory didn't make you a tory, but as soon as you say i can never vote for a party you are screwed, the opposition no longer needs to work for your vote, they can do what they want and you allowed them to do.
Don’t like the government, vote against.
If you don't its your fault, stop moaning about it.
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When I lived in Thurrock the local MP was and still is Jackie Doyle Price, she lied to people saying she would stop a new bridge, got in, then backed the bridge and announced a new Thames Project so people losing homes and recreation areas, but people voter her again because they won't vote labour, thats where we are and its sad, he is the whip too so is never in the local area, I would much prefer an independent working tirelessly for their local area with a passion than someone under a badge just for the seat.
 
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