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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Lilbaz said:
Unless you have an answer we are all ignorant. Again i ask how would you deal with it?

Or do you just like picking holes in other peoples suggestions?
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You’re right we should discuss these things and recognise that sometimes we may offend. We should also be careful how we frame discussions and it’s ok for some to be offended and to express that offence too. Free speech does not just go one way.
 
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DTA said:
dude he literally called for ‘a more subtle version of the Chinese re-education camps’

read concentration camps where Muslims (not all terrorists) are systematically raped, sterilised, beaten, brain washed and possibly worse.

im struggling to find a more abhorrent suggestion.

the rest of that particular post he wrote was fine and maybe Warrents discussion, but he then went in to group all Muslims together and state that ‘Muslims’ should apologise harder…

@LutonSpurs is now printing out leaflets to post to all his neighbours and surrounding areas to make sure he has apologised enough

personally I dont think he has done enough, the minimum he should do is take out some radio ads maybe remortgage his house and go big on national TV.
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Muslims shouldn’t have to apologise for the atrocities carried by 0.01% of people who follow the religion just as white people shouldn’t have to apologise for whites who owned slaves hundreds of years ago.

That said, I think those susceptible to brainwashing are far more likely to listen to moderate Muslim leaders and Imams than quote unquote “outsiders”
 
Jurgen the German said:
Muslims shouldn’t have to apologise for the atrocities carried by 0.01% of people who follow the religion just as white people shouldn’t have to apologise for whites who owned slaves hundreds of years ago.

That said, I think those susceptible to brainwashing are far more likely to listen to moderate Muslim leaders and Imams than quote unquote “outsiders”
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If we look at the make up of the majority of these actors they aren't influenced by the mainstream. These young men often lack a father figure. They are rebelling and going against the grain. They are angry and they are looking for like minded angry people and to belong to something. Mainstream voices really don't land. That is my anecdotal experience with how the minds of these kids work. And one thing I'm convinced of is that the radicalisation occurs online. Islamic, far right, incel etc... There are massive parallels in the characters of the men who get caught up in these movements. And then there are the tiny percentage who are driven to violence by it.

My question is where do we stop these people. At what point do they go from having hatred to committing violent crimes. I do not know the answer but I don't think prevent works. Spotting the signs of these things early is so hard.

We should have this discussion. I'd love to hear people's views on how we as a society can work to ensure it stops. I don't have the answers.
 
LutonSpurs said:
If we look at the make up of the majority of these actors they aren't influenced by the mainstream. These young men often lack a father figure. They are rebelling and going against the grain. They are angry and they are looking for like minded angry people and to belong to something. Mainstream voices really don't land. That is my anecdotal experience with how the minds of these kids work. And one thing I'm convinced of is that the radicalisation occurs online. Islamic, far right, incel etc... There are massive parallels in the characters of the men who get caught up in these movements. And then there are the tiny percentage who are driven to violence by it.

My question is where do we stop these people. At what point do they go from having hatred to committing violent crimes. I do not know the answer but I don't think prevent works. Spotting the signs of these things early is so hard.

We should have this discussion. I'd love to hear people's views on how we as a society can work to ensure it stops. I don't have the answers.
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Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but often I feel like some men just need to get laid more. Whenever a white “lone wolf” male in America commits a mass shootout it is usually a loser who was bullied at school and can’t get girls. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is a similar case for Muslim terrorists.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but often I feel like some men just need to get laid more. Whenever a white “lone wolf” male in America commits a mass shootout it is usually a loser who was bullied at school and can’t get girls. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is a similar case for Muslim terrorists.
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Unfortunately this is a key data point for me. And it will be part of some if not many of the traits of these murderers.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but often I feel like some men just need to get laid more. Whenever a white “lone wolf” male in America commits a mass shootout it is usually a loser who was bullied at school and can’t get girls. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is a similar case for Muslim terrorists.
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Osama bin laden had 4 wives and over 20 kids. Not sure he wasn't getting laid. Many islamic terrorists have been to university. It for them is political and religious. Hence why it is defined as terrorism.
 
Lilbaz said:
Osama bin laden had 4 wives and over 20 kids. Not sure he wasn't getting laid. Many islamic terrorists have been to university. It for them is political and religious. Hence why it is defined as terrorism.
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Leaders of these movements are really indicative of how their zealot followers are. Look at the Waco guy, Quresh, and many other leaders. It's the followers who do the actions we are discussing.
 
LutonSpurs said:
If we look at the make up of the majority of these actors they aren't influenced by the mainstream. These young men often lack a father figure. They are rebelling and going against the grain. They are angry and they are looking for like minded angry people and to belong to something. Mainstream voices really don't land. That is my anecdotal experience with how the minds of these kids work. And one thing I'm convinced of is that the radicalisation occurs online. Islamic, far right, incel etc... There are massive parallels in the characters of the men who get caught up in these movements. And then there are the tiny percentage who are driven to violence by it.

My question is where do we stop these people. At what point do they go from having hatred to committing violent crimes. I do not know the answer but I don't think prevent works. Spotting the signs of these things early is so hard.

We should have this discussion. I'd love to hear people's views on how we as a society can work to ensure it stops. I don't have the answers.
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Make all religions illegal in the UK. Then cut peoples benefits so they have to work rather then sitting around all day. Would lead to a far happier country.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Muslims shouldn’t have to apologise for the atrocities carried by 0.01% of people who follow the religion just as white people shouldn’t have to apologise for whites who owned slaves hundreds of years ago.

That said, I think those susceptible to brainwashing are far more likely to listen to moderate Muslim leaders and Imams than quote unquote “outsiders”
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I think radicalising vulnerable young minds be that Islamic, far right or any religious or political group is one of the biggest challenges in society today.
 
LutonSpurs said:
If we look at the make up of the majority of these actors they aren't influenced by the mainstream. These young men often lack a father figure. They are rebelling and going against the grain. They are angry and they are looking for like minded angry people and to belong to something. Mainstream voices really don't land. That is my anecdotal experience with how the minds of these kids work. And one thing I'm convinced of is that the radicalisation occurs online. Islamic, far right, incel etc... There are massive parallels in the characters of the men who get caught up in these movements. And then there are the tiny percentage who are driven to violence by it.

My question is where do we stop these people. At what point do they go from having hatred to committing violent crimes. I do not know the answer but I don't think prevent works. Spotting the signs of these things early is so hard.

We should have this discussion. I'd love to hear people's views on how we as a society can work to ensure it stops. I don't have the answers.
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No one has the answers mate. We cannot completely rid the world of feelings of anger, isolation and unhappiness. It’s interesting that people blame religion for all ills, which I think is more to do with fact that they don’t see value in religion. On the other hand, my faith gives me strength and comforts me during difficult times, combating the very feelings that might make a person vulnerable to radicalisation. I am sure it’s the same for adherents from all religions. If religions didn’t exist you would lose the good parts and still have divisiveness and radicalisation through other means, ethnic nationalism, incel etc.
 
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LutonSpurs said:
Leaders of these movements are really indicative of how their zealot followers are. Look at the Waco guy, Quresh, and many other leaders. It's the followers who do the actions we are discussing.
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Ok 7/7 bombers 3 of them went to university. 2 of them were married. The other 2 were 18 and 19.
 
Lilbaz said:
Ok 7/7 bombers 3 of them went to university. 2 of them were married. The other 2 were 18 and 19.
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Many highly educated and intelligent people can become extreme. But we do need to know what stage they they began their journey and how they were taken on that road.
 
scaramanga said:
The top link is incredibly scary still.

Regarding the second one, would you be upset or surprised if Conservative members believed that communism was a threat to the British way of life?
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I agree it is. The Hebdo stuff we have discussed before Scara. My views are clear. But we must remember the question was not if they were happy that the terrorism occurred. It was whether they understood the grievances of the nutters. Not the violent actions. Clearly being angry about offensive (subjective) cartoons is not something we can police. It's what it is. Condoning violence is something we can talk about. I don't think the data suggests anything but a tiny amount of people did.

Similarly the amount of people who want refugees to be drowned at sea in this country is terrifying. Also a violent act of terror if done deliberately.

There's some awful people out there.
 
scaramanga said:
Offering some of them endless virgins to poke at in heaven probably isn't a smart thing to do.
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Again yes. But even if you think those concepts are not allegorical the idea that murder is a route to such a thing is not one included in any mainstream theological discourse I've read.
 
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