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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

scaramanga said:
The agreement was only for the negotiation period.

At the end of that period we have no further liability there unless the EU wishes to negotiate a reason for us to have one.
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Is that the case? It hasn't escaped you that we are in the 'negotiation period'?
 
SpurMeUp said:
Is that the case? It hasn't escaped you that we are in the 'negotiation period'?
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And the legislation is for if we end up without a deal.

We can't wait until Dec 31st and then have legislation in place for Jan 1st, we need to start now.
 
scaramanga said:
And the legislation is for if we end up without a deal.

We can't wait until Dec 31st and then have legislation in place for Jan 1st, we need to start now.
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I'm not sure we understand this fully. To my mind, we - the UK - signed a divorce agreement with the EU. That agreement had commitments on N Ireland. If the FT story is true Johnson was about to overwrite those commitments made in the international agreement. He'll no doubt u-turn as usual. It's his party trick.
 
Rorschach said:
The NI protocol is not only for the negotiating period as far as I know.
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As far as everyone knew, exception Johnson and his cronies who make it up as they go along. The protocol/divorce/withdrawal agreement was a foundation to separating. A bit like a couple splitting up, they made a commitment to look after one of the kids in a certain way. A commitment to NI. Now Johnson wants to change what was agreed. Undermining faith internationally that we are good for our word.
 
SpurMeUp said:
As far as everyone knew, exception Johnson and his cronies who make it up as they go along. The protocol/divorce/withdrawal agreement was a foundation to separating. A bit like a couple splitting up, they made a commitment to look after one of the kids in a certain way. A commitment to NI. Now Johnson wants to change what was agreed. Undermining faith internationally that we are good for our word.
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He'll back down I think. That's his MO.
 
If we are still in negotiations then everything is up for negotiation till the final settlement is agreed.

Clearly they made early concessions to the evil EU with regards N. Ireland in the hope that the evil EU would continue negotiations like grownups.

The evil EU are not capable of doing this hence their racist stance on a trade deal with UK. Will be glad if their finally showing some balls but i doubt he will follow through.
 
LutonSpurs said:
When the public feel the sting will they blame Covid? We need to be clear that Covid has impacted similar sized economies across the world but my fear is the Britain will get duped by the Tory PR machine. Just ramp up videos of some immigrants on dinghies and distraction done. Or am I doing a disservice to working class Tories?
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Warning coming your way, even the mere mention of immigrants and dinghies is racist. Go to the back of the class, no mention of it is allowed.


You naughty boy.
 
Rorschach said:
Protests work. And more power to them I say.

We are technically advanced to the point where we don't need any new ideas or solutions. That is not the issue. Every solution we need is there on the shelf if we want it. Our real problem is political will and social momentum. We won't engineer our way out of the current consume/discard lifestyle. This is something that we'll all have to change, or alternatively we will have to accept the consequences of in own lifetime (grandkids is beyond optimistic).
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There is plenty of political will (maybe not as much as you'd like) but ultimately the government answers to the electorate, if they demand change then they're forced to act or they'll be voted out. Most people consider it an important issue but not as important as simple things like feeding their children, having a roof over their head, secure job and a couple of holidays a year etc. People are willing to make some changes but demands of no more flying, banning of cars etc aren't going to help their cause but more realistic expectations and less hyperbole might do.

People have an opportunity if they want to vote for the greens but they choose not too in great numbers for those reasons.
 
SpurMeUp said:
As far as everyone knew, exception Johnson and his cronies who make it up as they go along. The protocol/divorce/withdrawal agreement was a foundation to separating. A bit like a couple splitting up, they made a commitment to look after one of the kids in a certain way. A commitment to NI. Now Johnson wants to change what was agreed. Undermining faith internationally that we are good for our word.
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Bravo. Bravo.
 
P.D. said:
There is plenty of political will (maybe not as much as you'd like) but ultimately the government answers to the electorate, if they demand change then they're forced to act or they'll be voted out. Most people consider it an important issue but not as important as simple things like feeding their children, having a roof over their head, secure job and a couple of holidays a year etc. People are willing to make some changes but demands of no more flying, banning of cars etc aren't going to help their cause but more realistic expectations and less hyperbole might do.

People have an opportunity if they want to vote for the greens but they choose not too in great numbers for those reasons.
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They are demanding change outside of the UK thankfully where politics is not tainted by Brexit. I don't know much about the UK greens but your FPTP system distorts the political landscape, so I would not be using recent elections in the UK as an indication of anything other than how easily a country can be duped.

Yes, I do understand people will only go so far in changing their lifestyle and that goes for everyone. Who wants to give up life's comforts, but it will be changed for them by circumstance in the not too distant future anyway. What is coming is not hyperbole.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
I'm not sure we understand this fully. To my mind, we - the UK - signed a divorce agreement with the EU. That agreement had commitments on N Ireland. If the FT story is true Johnson was about to overwrite those commitments made in the international agreement. He'll no doubt u-turn as usual. It's his party trick.
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The agreement set in place a few conditions that had to be a part of any deal going forward.

If there is no deal going forward then we are no longer going by those agreements.
 
Rorschach said:
The NI protocol is not only for the negotiating period as far as I know.
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No, it's to be a part of any deal at the end of it.

This is in case there is no deal at the end. They can't bind us into agreements if there is no deal.
 
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scaramanga said:
The agreement set in place a few conditions that had to be a part of any deal going forward.

If there is no deal going forward then we are no longer going by those agreements.
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Do you remember pre-Brexit, even for the more hardline Leavers no deal with our largest trading partner was not on the table? Farrage wanted a Norway-like arrangement; laughable now. No one but no one countenanced leaving and not pursuing open trade with our closest neighbors. Why would you want to actively damage the UK and trade? Yet here we are supposedly considering it.

No deal is a rueful, logical progression when idiots like Farrage understand that a Norway-like trade deal or a soft Brexit is worse than staying in the EU. No deal is essentially obstinance. Where going back is too embarrassing, you dig yourself further in, in the hope that you'll pull out a diamond. It's a gambler's ruse. The odds of success are diminishing the further you go, but you've gone this far, you have to give it a punt.
 
scaramanga said:
No, it's to be a part of any deal at the end of it.

This is in case there is no deal at the end. They can't bund us into agreements if there is no deal.
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This is not how I understand it. The WA, of which the NI protocol is a part, is already a legal treaty that stays in force whether or not a free trade agreement is agreed upon. It is the replacement for May's backstop and is renewed by the NI Assembly (or not) every 4 years under a mechanism called consent. The UK has already signed this into law and this is why Boris is getting so much flak. He is being accused of trying to roll back some of the provisions in this agreement.
 
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Rorschach said:
They are demanding change outside of the UK thankfully where politics is not tainted by Brexit. I don't know much about the UK greens but your FPTP system distorts the political landscape, so I would not be using recent elections in the UK as an indication of anything other than how easily a country can be duped.

Yes, I do understand people will only go so far in changing their lifestyle and that goes for everyone. Who wants to give up life's comforts, but it will be changed for them by circumstance in the not too distant future anyway. What is coming is not hyperbole.
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If we did not have FPTP we would get a far higher chance of extreme right wing parties making up government like Italy has.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Do you remember pre-Brexit, even for the more hardline Leavers no deal with our largest trading partner was not on the table? Farrage wanted a Norway-like arrangement; laughable now. No one but no one countenanced leaving and not pursuing open trade with our closest neighbors. Why would you want to actively damage the UK and trade? Yet here we are supposedly considering it.

No deal is a rueful, logical progression when idiots like Farrage understand that a Norway-like trade deal or a soft Brexit is worse than staying in the EU. No deal is essentially obstinance. Where going back is too embarrassing, you dig yourself further in, in the hope that you'll pull out a diamond. It's a gambler's ruse. The odds of success are diminishing the further you go, but you've gone this far, you have to give it a punt.
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"No deal is better than a bad deal."

I think you're rewriting history to suit your agenda.
 
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