Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Parklaner81]

not at all, I just don’t like closet right-wing bullies.

To whom are you referring, and what have they done in your opinion that makes them bullies?

 

[Glenda's Legs]

What is wrong with saying we should be going to aid camps to get refugees from worn torn countries. What is wrong by saying that the illegal ones coming across nearly all young males is also wrong. Surely we have a duty to those poor families fleeing to try and keep them together. What is wrong saying turning a blind eye to those coming across in dingys will just encourage more to make the journey and then soon one day something terrible will happen and a load will die like those Chinese people in the lorries a few years ago.

Do you actually think it is wrong or do you just have such an ideological hatred of others point of views that you will always take the opposite view to them?

I've been mulling over your suggestion of helping those from refugee camps and I do think it is something we should be doing but just as one strand of our refugee policy. It does though have a bit of a feel of picking people to play on your team at school and leaves a lot of people behind, and it doesn't feel right (to me) that this should be only way that asylum can be sought. Meaning people have to try to make their own way which leads to dangerous sea crossings etc.

The other thing that came to mind in my mulling is that refugee camps are for people who have been displaced by war/conflict. But there are other categories of people who have need to seek asylum - e.g. activists who are under threat of death or torture in authoritarian regimes as one example; women who are living in forced marriages or who are at risk because of their attempts to establish/protect other women as another; minorities who are persecuted but not necessarily in a war situation as a third. There needs to be a route for them to escape and find safety elsewhere. So that's why I do think we need a flexible approach in our policy.

You have also mentioned a few times that a genuine refugee would be happy to settle in the first safe country they come to and I am sure that would be the case if that were their only option. But, given that under international law they have the choice of where to apply for asylum (and applying doesn't automatically mean they get accepted) then it does seem logical that some might opt for a country where they know the language, or where they maybe have family or acquaintances who have escaped ahead of them.
Whether one thinks they should have to seek asylum in the first safe country is a different thing to whether they actually have to do so by law.
The only way to change that is for the UK to withdraw from the Geneva Convention for Refugees or whatever the agreement is. I have no idea what the actual implications of doing that would be - apparently no signed-up country has ever done that. I also wouldn't trust a Conservative government to have something suitable in place as an alternative. (I say a Conservative government because I couldn't envisage a Labour or Liberal government ever even contemplating withdrawing from the convention).

Just to be clear, I certainly don't think you or others in this debate (on here) are racist in your views on this but I do think it is wrong to assume that anyone who travels across the channel must be trying to get here for solely economic reasons because they have chosen to continue their journey to here rather than settle elsewhere.

I do also think encouraging a song-and-dance about "illegal migrants" helps the government detract attention from other things they are doing badly, but that may just be my political bias coming through.

 

[StephenH]

Where are then?

Where is the bullying? Or are we still not allowed to talk about illegal immigration according to the overseers of all that is correct?



What do you have against those desperate people in aid camps?

A lot of questions there which might be to difficult to you to answer....

No, just can’t be arsed to join in with your little gangs clap trap!

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

No, just can’t be arsed to join in with your little gangs clap trap!

I dont have a gang.

Think its very telling you cant answer those very simple questions.

You have allowed your ideology to bind you in hatred. I feel sorry for you.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I've been mulling over your suggestion of helping those from refugee camps and I do think it is something we should be doing but just as one strand of our refugee policy. It does though have a bit of a feel of picking people to play on your team at school and leaves a lot of people behind, and it doesn't feel right (to me) that this should be only way that asylum can be sought. Meaning people have to try to make their own way which leads to dangerous sea crossings etc.

The other thing that came to mind in my mulling is that refugee camps are for people who have been displaced by war/conflict. But there are other categories of people who have need to seek asylum - e.g. activists who are under threat of death or torture in authoritarian regimes as one example; women who are living in forced marriages or who are at risk because of their attempts to establish/protect other women as another; minorities who are persecuted but not necessarily in a war situation as a third. There needs to be a route for them to escape and find safety elsewhere. So that's why I do think we need a flexible approach in our policy.

You have also mentioned a few times that a genuine refugee would be happy to settle in the first safe country they come to and I am sure that would be the case if that were their only option. But, given that under international law they have the choice of where to apply for asylum (and applying doesn't automatically mean they get accepted) then it does seem logical that some might opt for a country where they know the language, or where they maybe have family or acquaintances who have escaped ahead of them.
Whether one thinks they should have to seek asylum in the first safe country is a different thing to whether they actually have to do so by law.
The only way to change that is for the UK to withdraw from the Geneva Convention for Refugees or whatever the agreement is. I have no idea what the actual implications of doing that would be - apparently no signed-up country has ever done that. I also wouldn't trust a Conservative government to have something suitable in place as an alternative. (I say a Conservative government because I couldn't envisage a Labour or Liberal government ever even contemplating withdrawing from the convention).

Just to be clear, I certainly don't think you or others in this debate (on here) are racist in your views on this but I do think it is wrong to assume that anyone who travels across the channel must be trying to get here for solely economic reasons because they have chosen to continue their journey to here rather than settle elsewhere.

I do also think encouraging a song-and-dance about "illegal migrants" helps the government detract attention from other things they are doing badly, but that may just be my political bias coming through.

Totally agree with the last part about the government using it to detract from other failings. Because since Cheltenham they have as far as i can see got everything wrong. Even if they say they have been led by the science, which im not so sure on..

Thank you for at least debating it properly with us. My views probably dont defer that much from most of the far lefties on here on this. I dont quite think it should be a free for all but we do have a duty of care to others. My GHod even Farage who i now hate for cosying up to Trump says this.

I think Cameron's idea to go to aid camps was a great one, not without faults as you say there would be others who would slip through the system who need asylum.

Perhaps if the EU could actually work it could have allocated people more evenly. But as you probably know i dont think the EU is workable as anything more then a trading block.

I am not threatening in my next remark but i do worry that the way some particularly on the left try and shut down any debate means that the middle and the right will move further and further to the right. I dont want that, i like a liberal society when it means people can be their sexuality and practice their religions without fear of persecution. But it concerns me for instance when you have universities ban certain people rather then debate with them.

I fear we are producing a generation that will never listen to another persons point of view. When this happens the will be a class war(maybe brexit was the opening battle) i think you will have people of colour on both sides of this class war and worry ot will pave the way for a true nutter to take charge. If you look at the voting patterns for the uk, should Scotland leave it would make it more likely.

 

[Grays_1890]

If you think talk of privatising the NHS and mindset of those that travel to seek asylum is racism then I find that greatly odd.

Most GHod souls can manage to debate on here and offer alternative points of view. Likes of @thfcsteff @LutonSpurs are always great at that and middle grounds often found

The go straight to racist do not collect £200 is for me weak and on the whole incorrect

 

[LutonSpurs]

Totally agree with the last part about the government using it to detract from other failings. Because since Cheltenham they have as far as i can see got everything wrong. Even if they say they have been led by the science, which im not so sure on..

Thank you for at least debating it properly with us. My views probably dont defer that much from most of the far lefties on here on this. I dont quite think it should be a free for all but we do have a duty of care to others. My GHod even Farage who i now hate for cosying up to Trump says this.

I think Cameron's idea to go to aid camps was a great one, not without faults as you say there would be others who would slip through the system who need asylum.

Perhaps if the EU could actually work it could have allocated people more evenly. But as you probably know i dont think the EU is workable as anything more then a trading block.

I am not threatening in my next remark but i do worry that the way some particularly on the left try and shut down any debate means that the middle and the right will move further and further to the right. I dont want that, i like a liberal society when it means people can be their sexuality and practice their religions without fear of persecution. But it concerns me for instance when you have universities ban certain people rather then debate with them.

I fear we are producing a generation that will never listen to another persons point of view. When this happens the will be a class war(maybe brexit was the opening battle) i think you will have people of colour on both sides of this class war and worry ot will pave the way for a true nutter to take charge. If you look at the voting patterns for the uk, should Scotland leave it would make it more likely.

As a lefty I never try and shut down a debate. Especially on a discussion forum lol. But I've seen snowflakes from the right and the left tbh.

 

[Grays_1890]

Totally agree with the last part about the government using it to detract from other failings. Because since Cheltenham they have as far as i can see got everything wrong. Even if they say they have been led by the science, which im not so sure on..

Thank you for at least debating it properly with us. My views probably dont defer that much from most of the far lefties on here on this. I dont quite think it should be a free for all but we do have a duty of care to others. My GHod even Farage who i now hate for cosying up to Trump says this.

I think Cameron's idea to go to aid camps was a great one, not without faults as you say there would be others who would slip through the system who need asylum.

Perhaps if the EU could actually work it could have allocated people more evenly. But as you probably know i dont think the EU is workable as anything more then a trading block.

I am not threatening in my next remark but i do worry that the way some particularly on the left try and shut down any debate means that the middle and the right will move further and further to the right. I dont want that, i like a liberal society when it means people can be their sexuality and practice their religions without fear of persecution. But it concerns me for instance when you have universities ban certain people rather then debate with them.

I fear we are producing a generation that will never listen to another persons point of view. When this happens the will be a class war(maybe brexit was the opening battle) i think you will have people of colour on both sides of this class war and worry ot will pave the way for a true nutter to take charge. If you look at the voting patterns for the uk, should Scotland leave it would make it more likely.

Again I think you are right. The trigger words like asylum where you can't offer and alternative view to things where people can't converse but make false claims only goes to make things worse.

It also stinks of some kind of higher importance and snobbery where people won't engage because their belief set is the only set..,..so there

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Totally agree with the last part about the government using it to detract from other failings. Because since Cheltenham they have as far as i can see got everything wrong. Even if they say they have been led by the science, which im not so sure on..

Thank you for at least debating it properly with us. My views probably dont defer that much from most of the far lefties on here on this. I dont quite think it should be a free for all but we do have a duty of care to others. My GHod even Farage who i now hate for cosying up to Trump says this.

I think Cameron's idea to go to aid camps was a great one, not without faults as you say there would be others who would slip through the system who need asylum.

Perhaps if the EU could actually work it could have allocated people more evenly. But as you probably know i dont think the EU is workable as anything more then a trading block.

I am not threatening in my next remark but i do worry that the way some particularly on the left try and shut down any debate means that the middle and the right will move further and further to the right. I dont want that, i like a liberal society when it means people can be their sexuality and practice their religions without fear of persecution. But it concerns me for instance when you have universities ban certain people rather then debate with them.

I fear we are producing a generation that will never listen to another persons point of view. When this happens the will be a class war(maybe brexit was the opening battle) i think you will have people of colour on both sides of this class war and worry ot will pave the way for a true nutter to take charge. If you look at the voting patterns for the uk, should Scotland leave it would make it more likely.

I will reply to some of your points (which I largely agree with) later but right now I’m enjoying sitting out in the garden with the humidity dropped, a nice warm breeze, a glass of beer and watching the bees which I find strangely hypnotic and relaxing.
All I will add now is that you said “thank you for at least debating it properly with us” which I find a bit sad as I really don’t see it that way on here as a them and us thing. Although there are views that I disagree with and views that will probably never be changed, it is generally a civil debate and I learn a lot as well from things that are posted that I might not previously have appreciated, and it’s always good to learn.

 

[Grays_1890]

I will reply to some of your points (which I largely agree with) later but right now I’m enjoying sitting out in the garden with the humidity dropped, a nice warm breeze, a glass of beer and watching the bees which I find strangely hypnotic and relaxing.
All I will add now is that you said “thank you for at least debating it properly with us” which I find a bit sad as I really don’t see it that way on here as a them and us thing. Although there are views that I disagree with and views that will probably never be changed, it is generally a civil debate and I learn a lot as well from things that are posted that I might not previously have appreciated, and it’s always good to learn.

Great post enjoy your beer mines on route with er indoors ready for snooker

 

[thfcsteff]

Steff who has used those words "hordes" and "invading british shores" it is almost like your trying to make people sound like extremists when people really aren't. There just pointing out the unfairness of people coming here illegally rather then claiming asylum in the first safe country.

Your doing what so many on the left do particularly the guardian and the bbc which is making anyone even talking about the issue sound like an extremist.

It is an old trick but it might have worked in the early 2000s but it does not anymore, i also always thought you were better then that.

If you want to let it go unchecked which will obviously just result in many more risking their lives to come here. Then i suggest you and you might already be doing this but give more of your salary to asylum charities so they dont rely on government funding or grants.

No one has said we should not take genuine refugees particularly those from war zones. But some people on here who seem to want to criticise anyone bringing up the issue, well its almost like you have an ulterior motive....

No worries mate, debate and discussion are vital.

it was Farage who posted a tweet/video which got me making that comment.

Here mate. He is engaging in hyperbolic brick-stirring and distraction. He never ever brings these issues up rationally, and enjoys stirring the pot.

The discussion is real and needs to be had. The discussion.

Farage's hyperbolic incessant drum-beating flimflam does not. When will people realize this clam does not care about anyone other than himself?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is an issue of national security. <a href="https://t.co/HpfGwB4H5v">https://t.co/HpfGwB4H5v</a></p>&mdash; Nigel Farage (@Nigel_Farage) <a href="https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1292722586221195265?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 10, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[thfcsteff]

Reading some of the wilful ignorance of those on the left i can see how normal people get pushed towards them.

I have spent 4 years slagging off Trump and warning we will get our own one one day.

Yet the are seemingly normal posters on here who think we should let anyone in who claims to be an asylum seeker even if they have gone through safe countries to get here.

The extreme liberals will be at fault for this and actually were for brexit and Johnson in the first place.

6 years ago i was running a logistics warehouse and all the indigenous workers were annoyed how despite paying tax all their life if they did not have dependents then people coming into the country were ahead of them on the housing list.

To get a good gauge of the country you need to get out and talk to people, and not with a bbc camera crew when they wont tell you what their thinking for fear of being called racist.

People like fair play, going to aid camps and helping people is fair, people coming across illegally in boats is not fair.

Chich. Love ya ya daft sod, but again, the conversation has been pitched at defcon levels by Farage and Faragists. There are some ENORMOUS problems with trafficking and migrants; I guarantee the Dingy phalanx are at the thinnest end of them. Again, discussion is great, hyperbolic Faragist flimflam is not. He did it before and he's on one again.

BTW, let me join the poster who commented on the civil debate you're having with folks, I agree and it is the way things should be.

 

[wiziwig]

why should they not go where they like!

Let's say there's a civil war in America - the Left are kicking the ass of the Right, and we have a million or more, right-wing GHod fearing white Christians, many of them from the Appalachian Mountain region wanting political Asylum here ...

Be honest, would you and all the progressives on here be so welcoming?

 

[thfcsteff]

And reading comments like this, you can see why politics has become as polarised as it has.

I agree, polarization is a presence and danger for sure. How it started in the most recent context, however, is not especially hard to find is it? The same root cause is at it again with the dingy donging. You know I consider him he single reason that Trump got in during 2016? That and the arrogance of some of his vehement anti-supporters who simply laughed and ridiculed him as he continued to spout his nonsense? Like Trump, I am more wary of foghorn populists with stage presence than virtually any other kind of politician; he is proving his point again.

 

[thfcsteff]

I've been mulling over your suggestion of helping those from refugee camps and I do think it is something we should be doing but just as one strand of our refugee policy. It does though have a bit of a feel of picking people to play on your team at school and leaves a lot of people behind, and it doesn't feel right (to me) that this should be only way that asylum can be sought. Meaning people have to try to make their own way which leads to dangerous sea crossings etc.

The other thing that came to mind in my mulling is that refugee camps are for people who have been displaced by war/conflict. But there are other categories of people who have need to seek asylum - e.g. activists who are under threat of death or torture in authoritarian regimes as one example; women who are living in forced marriages or who are at risk because of their attempts to establish/protect other women as another; minorities who are persecuted but not necessarily in a war situation as a third. There needs to be a route for them to escape and find safety elsewhere. So that's why I do think we need a flexible approach in our policy.

You have also mentioned a few times that a genuine refugee would be happy to settle in the first safe country they come to and I am sure that would be the case if that were their only option. But, given that under international law they have the choice of where to apply for asylum (and applying doesn't automatically mean they get accepted) then it does seem logical that some might opt for a country where they know the language, or where they maybe have family or acquaintances who have escaped ahead of them.
Whether one thinks they should have to seek asylum in the first safe country is a different thing to whether they actually have to do so by law.
The only way to change that is for the UK to withdraw from the Geneva Convention for Refugees or whatever the agreement is. I have no idea what the actual implications of doing that would be - apparently no signed-up country has ever done that. I also wouldn't trust a Conservative government to have something suitable in place as an alternative. (I say a Conservative government because I couldn't envisage a Labour or Liberal government ever even contemplating withdrawing from the convention).

Just to be clear, I certainly don't think you or others in this debate (on here) are racist in your views on this but I do think it is wrong to assume that anyone who travels across the channel must be trying to get here for solely economic reasons because they have chosen to continue their journey to here rather than settle elsewhere.

I do also think encouraging a song-and-dance about "illegal migrants" helps the government detract attention from other things they are doing badly, but that may just be my political bias coming through.

A really important point and one I agree with.

I also think your final sentiment carries significant weight, albeit there is one man doing "it" again...

 

[thfcsteff]

They criticise Trump for his lies and deliberate misinformation but you see people make claims on the other side which are frankly just as ridiculous. I am wondering if that is what went through the minds of Trump supporters in America and thats why they vote for him. I can not stand Trump but can understand how after decades of lies perhaps people dont care if their elected leader tells porkies and cant read.

Mate,

There is "having trouble with Charles dingdongens" and "being unable to read a Mr Man book". It is important, IMO, not to conflate the two. All politicians lie, sadly that is the name of the game. I cannot think of any in my lifetime that have lied got the lengths and bredths of that despicable clown.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Chich. Love ya ya daft sod, but again, the conversation has been pitched at defcon levels by Farage and Faragists. There are some ENORMOUS problems with trafficking and migrants; I guarantee the Dingy rude boys are at the thinnest end of them. Again, discussion is great, hyperbolic Faragist flimflam is not. He did it before and he's on one again.

BTW, let me join the poster who commented on the civil debate you're having with folks, I agree and it is the way things should be.

Farage might be highlighting the issue but that does not mean there isn't an issue. Went right off him when he hooked up with Trump.


Something i can tell you as a white man, when the are no black or asians around quite a lot of people bring up topics they would not otherwise.

Listening to the people in my barbers or in what is actually quite a nice middle class local pub. The amount of anger and resentment towards the government the police and media for certain cover ups.

Tommy Robinson is scum of the earth but by doing a media blackout of those child abuse trials by a few muslims was the biggest own goal i have ever seen. Would have been better to have a couple of luttle riots and take the sting out of it.

But now you have people, people who are semi educated and semi skilled saying how governments and the police cover things up. Whether it is true or not the is a groundswell of opinon and distrust amongst many and that is storing up issues for the future.

Farage wants to keep his name out there, partly i guess to pay for his next divorce. We on here who discuss politics often discuss what is most topical. I strongly believe if we dont discuss everything as a society it will store up issues for the future and i say that hearing how some people i never thought would, talk the way they talk.

 

[thfcsteff]

Farage might be highlighting the issue but that does not mean there isn't an issue. Went right off him when he hooked up with Trump.


Something i can tell you as a white man, when the are no black or asians around quite a lot of people bring up topics they would not otherwise.

Listening to the people in my barbers or in what is actually quite a nice middle class local pub. The amount of anger and resentment towards the government the police and media for certain cover ups.

Tommy Robinson is scum of the earth but by doing a media blackout of those child abuse trials by a few muslims was the biggest own goal i have ever seen. Would have been better to have a couple of luttle riots and take the sting out of it.

But now you have people, people who are semi educated and semi skilled saying how governments and the police cover things up. Whether it is true or not the is a groundswell of opinon and distrust amongst many and that is storing up issues for the future.

Farage wants to keep his name out there, partly i guess to pay for his next divorce. We on here who discuss politics often discuss what is most topical. I strongly believe if we dont discuss everything as a society it will store up issues for the future and i say that hearing how some people i never thought would, talk the way they talk.

I agree with you on many things here, essentially the importance of discussing everything. And yes, the edge towards conspiracies is dangerous. Sometimes there is weight, but more often it is paranoia.

Mate, one day it would be great actually have a discussion in a pub before a match.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

My word, Boris Johnson and his Tory government really are kicking goals. Not content to have the highest death toll in Europe from Covid 19, They have also steered us into the deepest recession. Well done to that man!

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I agree with you on many things here, essentially the importance of discussing everything. And yes, the edge towards conspiracies is dangerous. Sometimes there is weight, but more often it is paranoia.

Mate, one day it would be great actually have a discussion in a pub before a match.

Aslyum is not a major issue. If i were prime minister and I really think i should be. It would probably come in around new law number 75. Far more important issues and as has been pointed out the money spent on it is negligible,though not as cheap as some make out which just leaves them open to critique from the right.

I worry about this so called safe spaces in universities which are stifling debate and breeding a generation of real snowflakes.

I consider myself a socially liberal person but honestly that tommy robinson thing was such an own goal. They martyred him, he is a disgusting man with horrible views. But it has no become a thing amongst some that the government and media care more about the minorities then the indigenous population.

If it were me i would have allowed those trials to be public, the few dodgy muslims would have gone to jail, maybe a couple of riots in brick hole northern towns. But it would have blown over.

Brexit did not happen in 2016, it took years of simmering distrust amongst the people to get there. When the media or people try to shut down or as the kids say now cancel people all it does is create a certain view point in other people's minds.

I about 10 years ago had a serious interest in environmental issues. Love vertical farming, my pinterest is full of vertical farms pins(and air stewardess tights) i also feel we should be looking into wave turbines.

But the greens came inyo Brighton and did not govern properly they went lala with every new and more far fetched initiative. Every adult serious minded non student in Brighton i know absolutely hates them. There cycle lanes to no where are a total mind fcuk and im a cyclist. Took me 30 minutes to drive from southern cross to olive road in portslade the other day which though i dont expect anyone on here to know it, is ridiculous. Did not see one cyclist in the lanes because everyone who cycles uses the seafront.

My point being liberal or green politics are great but if you push to hard one way it zings back the other way, and i really dont want a Trump in this country.