I agree that immigrants are a net benefit - the data are clear.
What I don't agree with is paying benefits (in and out of work) to more than the huge (in both senses) numbers we already pay them to.
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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
What I don't agree with is paying benefits (in and out of work) to more than the huge (in both senses) numbers we already pay them to.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
Who can afford 6 k per crossing
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
It's a tiny number but fine. I understand why you feel that way. But we do not let people starve to death. We need a system that helps people stay in work or get back in to work and allow them to live above the poverty line while they do this. I'm happy that my taxes go that way. What I want is a robust welfare system. I don't think we have one.
Or they can stay in France.
Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
I'd have expected this to have found more support among remainers - it would at least be (closer to) respecting EU law.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Sigh.
New levels of arrogance achieved Scara, congratulations.
That you feel in a position to tell me why my Mum survived cancer is laughable, even bye your patronizing standards. You genuinely don't know her stories, thus if I might be as bold, you're out of your league on the fact-front here, albeit I sense you're again riding your Wodehousian troll-train.
Not to put too fine a point on it, if the NHS did not exist -and if she had not been referred instantly BY an NHS doctor to what is considered one of the very top cancer hospitals in Europe, she would be either broke, dead or broke and dead from the stress of inordinate costs.
You appear to have little to no idea how much it costs to effectively treat cancer. I mean effectively, not over-bill for a set of nice curtains, hard wood floors instead of linoleum, gourmet food and full service entertainment (I trust your private plan offers live entertainment for you)?
The good news is that those like yourself who require a certain standard of facility before you'll consider trying to get better can also access the Marsden (it takes private plans) and as such remains a sterling example of what healthcare should be about, delivering world class care for all in the varying degrees it is wanted. Again, I have no issue whatsoever with your hospital snobbery, tally-ho and enjoy the extended facilities, however quality healthcare for ALL should be supported BY society across the board, end of. Yes mate, even you.
Spare a clean tablecloth for an NHS subscriber?
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Unbelievable discussion about the hordes of dingeys invading British shores with the tens of asylum seekers storming the beaches.
Jesus.
Perhaps it would be better to train even more focus on the disgraceful volumes of people trafficked via lorries and actual ferries/ships that genuinely do seem to be arriving on British shores in numbers? I don't believe the "dingy massive" are going to cause our social services to collapse.
Jesus.
Perhaps it would be better to train even more focus on the disgraceful volumes of people trafficked via lorries and actual ferries/ships that genuinely do seem to be arriving on British shores in numbers? I don't believe the "dingy massive" are going to cause our social services to collapse.
So is cancer an immediate death sentence in all the other countries that don't have an NHS?Sigh.
New levels of arrogance achieved Scara, congratulations.
That you feel in a position to tell me why my Mum survived cancer is laughable, even bye your patronizing standards. You genuinely don't know her stories, thus if I might be as bold, you're out of your league on the fact-front here, albeit I sense you're again riding your Wodehousian troll-train.
Not to put too fine a point on it, if the NHS did not exist -and if she had not been referred instantly BY an NHS doctor to what is considered one of the very top cancer hospitals in Europe, she would be either broke, dead or broke and dead from the stress of inordinate costs.
You appear to have little to no idea how much it costs to effectively treat cancer. I mean effectively, not over-bill for a set of nice curtains, hard wood floors instead of linoleum, gourmet food and full service entertainment (I trust your private plan offers live entertainment for you)?
The good news is that those like yourself who require a certain standard of facility before you'll consider trying to get better can also access the Marsden (it takes private plans) and as such remains a sterling example of what healthcare should be about, delivering world class care for all in the varying degrees it is wanted. Again, I have no issue whatsoever with your hospital snobbery, tally-ho and enjoy the extended facilities, however quality healthcare for ALL should be supported BY society across the board, end of. Yes mate, even you.
Spare a clean tablecloth for an NHS subscriber?
I have no issue with the government providing healthcare for those that cannot afford it, but there's absolutely not good reason (sentimentality isn't a good reason) for the government to provide it.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
They are both sides of the same coin in respect of the black market trafficking and should be dealt with.
If the BBC can find the beach and culprits without any years of investigative skills I'm sure the French police can, but I doubt it serves them well to deal with it.
I'm all for immigration I've been one in both the Middle East and Canada and said it till blue in the face, political asylum I think is a world problem to share and don't think that's unfair to say. I think Turkey take too much burden and others not enough for example however I do believe there is relevance in the argument made that passage through Many safe havens to our shores makes little sense if fleeing danger is your primary goal. I do think this is a land of milk and honey to be proud of and as such it's not primarily safety why people come it's safety and opportunity, it's not a bad thing to say nor admit, if I read back on most posts it's alluded to on both sides of the fence.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
There are many, many places to crack down on that before we get too concerned about the Rubber Dingy Massive mate.
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thfcsteff
George Hunt
One of us is missing the point of this "debate"...I feel I know who.
As for your curious question about "cancer"
and "death sentences" in places without an NHS style structure in place, let me just assure you that you do not want to be dealing with all the knock-on effects without top tier insurance.
This is just one story. There are many. Try to put your apparent repugnance of the ordinary, unspectacular and average human being aside and tell me if -in all honesty- you believe this is how a civilized society should have healthcare set up. I believe even those who shop at Tesco (even TK Maxx) deserve healthcare without bankruptcy. Thus why the NHS remains vital.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-09-04/hiltzik-medical-bankruptcy-american-scandal?_amp=true
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thfcsteff
George Hunt
Nice try.
It would appear that the NHS also save many many lives with outstanding care, this despite chiseling underfunding. Of course curtains aren't all that and the rooms are more Holiday Inn than Four Seasons, but again do remember, we're not there for a layabout are we?
I continue to find it fascinating that concession is nowhere in your wheelhouse; it is much more about refocussing enough times so as someone might forget your initial point.
A reminder...you presented your main issues with the NHS as such...
"For every story of someone doing well on the NHS, there's one like mine. Before I had private healthcare I had to use an NHS hospital. I was in a room with 5 other people. There was a shared toilet between fudge known how many people. Food was only available at set meal times and was made of something I wouldn't even feed an animal. There was no alcohol and nothing whatsoever to do for three days.
Spending time in the "care" of the NHS might suit people who will happily holiday in those backpacker places but it's simply not how to treat human beings."
You then asserted that the reason my Mother survived cancer twice had nothing to do with the NHS and was simply because she was in a hospital; an extraordinary assertion given that you don't know about her cases. I reminded you that the Marsden is an NHS hospital which also caters to private sector patients and is recognized as one of the leading cancer hospitals around.
And here we are, in Germany, with you banging the drum for the German system, which is far closer in structure to the British system than it is to, say, the American one; you do know it is the world's oldest social medicine system, right?
I can only conclude that you approve of German hospital decor, food, beverage and entertainment services, and that you want to make sure I understand as such. Have you had to avail yourself?
The facilities in Denmark are pretty good, and I hear the same for Norway and Sweden too.
If I have missed your point I'd suggest you try making it more clearly and spend less time trying to slough off peasants at any second.
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
Serious question - do you think we are politically (both at Govt and Electorate level) set up to achieve a German style solution?
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Doesn't Germany spend a lot more per head on health care? Is that there is more money spent by the German government per head than the UK, or is it a mix of government and private money?
It's not only the setup, it's how society behaves. Take 2 points:
- Obesity levels I'd guess are lower in Germany, leads to lower impact on health through less diabetes, high blood pressure, heart issues, gastric bands etc
- Appointments - there's often talk here of the amount of money wasted by people not turning up to appointments and fining them £10 which I think is fair. Are the same percentage of appointments missed in Germany? If not then why not?
- Obesity levels I'd guess are lower in Germany, leads to lower impact on health through less diabetes, high blood pressure, heart issues, gastric bands etc
- Appointments - there's often talk here of the amount of money wasted by people not turning up to appointments and fining them £10 which I think is fair. Are the same percentage of appointments missed in Germany? If not then why not?
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
Nice try.
It would appear that the NHS also save many many lives with outstanding care, this despite chiseling underfunding. Of course curtains aren't all that and the rooms are more Holiday Inn than Four Seasons, but again do remember, we're not there for a layabout are we?
I continue to find it fascinating that concession is nowhere in your wheelhouse; it is much more about refocussing enough times so as someone might forget your initial point.
A reminder...you presented your main issues with the NHS as such...
"For every story of someone doing well on the NHS, there's one like mine. Before I had private healthcare I had to use an NHS hospital. I was in a room with 5 other people. There was a shared toilet between fudge known how many people. Food was only available at set meal times and was made of something I wouldn't even feed an animal. There was no alcohol and nothing whatsoever to do for three days.
Spending time in the "care" of the NHS might suit people who will happily holiday in those backpacker places but it's simply not how to treat human beings."
You then asserted that the reason my Mother survived cancer twice had nothing to do with the NHS and was simply because she was in a hospital; an extraordinary assertion given that you don't know about her cases. I reminded you that the Marsden is an NHS hospital which also caters to private sector patients and is recognized as one of the leading cancer hospitals around.
And here we are, in Germany, with you banging the drum for the German system, which is far closer in structure to the British system than it is to, say, the American one; you do know it is the world's oldest social medicine system, right?
I can only conclude that you approve of German hospital decor, food, beverage and entertainment services, and that you want to make sure I understand as such. Have you had to avail yourself?
The facilities in Denmark are pretty good, and I hear the same for Norway and Sweden too.
If I have missed your point I'd suggest you try making it more clearly and spend less time trying to slough off peasants at any second.
First off, really pleased to hear about your mum surving twice, cancer is the scrounge of human kind. Awful disease that I'm sure we've all seen too many good people suffer and not come through the other side.
Having experienced the NHS recently myself I can say that on balance I had a pretty decent time. Not great, but not awful.
I did witness some pretty poor stuff, but mainly on the patient side.
If the guy across the ward from me had spoken to me the way he did to his nurse I think I would have put a pillow over his face.
There seems to be a section of society that thinks the NHS is at their beckon call, the staff are no better than servants and are there to do their bidding.
I see little real respect for the NHS as an institution any more, its just another entitlement to be used and abused.
The NHS is being eroded away by over policticalisation and an over reliance by a population taking less care of its self.
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
Steff who has used those words "hordes" and "invading british shores" it is almost like your trying to make people sound like extremists when people really aren't. There just pointing out the unfairness of people coming here illegally rather then claiming asylum in the first safe country.
Your doing what so many on the left do particularly the guardian and the bbc which is making anyone even talking about the issue sound like an extremist.
It is an old trick but it might have worked in the early 2000s but it does not anymore, i also always thought you were better then that.
If you want to let it go unchecked which will obviously just result in many more risking their lives to come here. Then i suggest you and you might already be doing this but give more of your salary to asylum charities so they dont rely on government funding or grants.
No one has said we should not take genuine refugees particularly those from war zones. But some people on here who seem to want to criticise anyone bringing up the issue, well its almost like you have an ulterior motive....
StephenH
David Ginola
I'm a huge fan of the NHS.
I started my life at Kingston Hospital in 1953 then straight on to Great Ormand Street till I was 20 after having various surgeries. At 67 and having recently attended Charing Cross six weeks ago for a suspected stroke which luckily was Bell Palsey now fully recovered. I can say wow, what a great bunch of human beings and although not always perfect they are due all our respect.
I started my life at Kingston Hospital in 1953 then straight on to Great Ormand Street till I was 20 after having various surgeries. At 67 and having recently attended Charing Cross six weeks ago for a suspected stroke which luckily was Bell Palsey now fully recovered. I can say wow, what a great bunch of human beings and although not always perfect they are due all our respect.