monkeybarry
Jack Jull
On that basis, we would need to rerun the original referendum.
That's the problem with democracy, it's includes everyone
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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
That's the problem with democracy, it's includes everyone
Do you even employ RoW bro?
I do. I used to a lot more when we had a factory in Birmingham.
If I employ an UK/EU national, I am required to take a copy of their identity documents and keep them on file. Care to hazard a guess at what the beginning and end of my responsibilities as an employer are when employing someone from RoW? I have to take a copy of their work permit and keep it on file. The only additional requirement on me is to recheck that permit in a few years time when it expires.
That's not a statement that's reflected in reality.
I have to record and declare all EU imports and exports to the government for EU VAT tracking. Anything imported and exported to and from RoW also requires paperwork but that's all done by the freight companies who specialise in that stuff. The paperwork is different but just as onerous for EU countries as it is RoW.
If industries need propping up by governments to survive then they have no place in this world. We don't improve by levelling the playing field down to the lowest common denominator, we do so by rewarding the best.
This is the reality I live and work in. It's the reality that those working for and with me work in. The EU represents a real cost to everything we do, despite a tiny fraction of our sales being to the EU - mainly because regulation drags us down to the lowest EU common denominator.
If we ran referendums every time something changed, we wouldn't be in the EU now - we'd have left when it started moving from a trading bloc to a socialist superstate.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
1. If you want to employ someone from China who doesn't have a work visa (or Poland in the future) you will have to register an Employer Sponsorship Licence. There is tonnes of paperwork just to get the liscence. Then to take someone on there is a whole load more red tape. Its dull, takes time and ins't easy. On the upside you will kinda 'own' that individual as their work visa will only work with your company (or others that have the sponsorship liscence). So at the moment, you can hire a Pole this afternoon, they can get on a coach or flight from Poland and start work with you tomorrow. So yes there will be more red tape.
2. If I order goods from the US, there are customs duties to pay and forms to fill out. If I import them from the EU there isn't. It is called a Free Market because goods and services are free within the EU, free to move around and be sold and bought unencumbered. Unlike with RoW. If our UK government want you to track things for internal uk tax purposes that is a UK thing. You have to track everything you buy as a business anyway for VAT purposes, so you're really misrepresenting reality on this one. You have used the day it took you to reply well!
3. Re. protecting UK industry, back to your personal dogma overriding logic. Adam Smith's free hand of the market is useful but also has limits. Some form of regulation is required otherwise we'd have monopolies, cartels, no UK farming, no banks anymore etc etc. Are you suggesting we destroy all UK domestic food production and 'farm' it out to the cheapest foreign option? That is not how the world is thinking at the moment. Trump protecting US jobs, the EU too. But we'll destroy our own core industries? Makes no sense and that is why government would have to pass new laws. You're also out of step with our current government, who confirmed they will prop up farmers https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/eu-referendum/ministers-pledge-support-for-sheep-sector
The reality you live and work in has been in the EU. You've benefited from it. You've told us your manager was Polish, and one of your best workers. How would you have hired them without the EU? I take making things to an EU standard that are then exported makes little sense. I am surprised you can not make items for export only? Maybe it is to maintain standards in things like medical items? I don't know.
All I will say is careful what you wish for. You voted to remain. You did so for logical reasons. The emotive side of Brexit does not reflect reality. I understand it and like the national pride and sense of possibility Brexit endears, but we need to harness that while maintaining free trade and cooperation with our neighbours.
Love it. I am almost convinced to support Brexit after that
@parklane81 and @P.D. why not get behind Labours position, it allows all Brexit positions and a fair vote on all of them? Can have no deal, Mays deal, a softer Coybyn deal. Or is there a fear that people wouldn't want to leave, and you feel like we've 'banked' leave now? Which I appreciate. What I don't understand is what you are chasing from Brexit. What positives do you think will come from it, that keeps your hanging on rooting for it, when so far Brexit has been one big pile of steaming shyte?
In short, what wins are there from all this? What benefits do we - or you personally - having coming our/your way from Brexit? Did you short the pound and want an exit so you make millions? Do you have a company that benefits from a lower value pound (not naming names @scaramanga )? What is it you get from Brexit? Less people coming in from Europe is a valid reason imo. Probably the best reason one could give. Are there any other things we get back from all this nonsense that you can outline?
Do you feel let down by the likes of Mark Francois, Steve Baker and the ERG? They stopped a brexit that would have closed our borders to the EU (Mays deal), are they on your side? Do they represent you? And what do we think about those who said leaving would be simple, that German car companies would be knocking down our door begging for a deal. That french winemakers and Italian prosecco producers would mean EU negotiations would be a cinch. If they got this so wrong (we can categorically say that they did now) do you trust them on their other claims?
Why would I want to get behind a position that I don't agree with? I've consistently said before that I want the UK to be able to strike our own trade agreements and Labours plan is to join the customs union which prohibits this so how does it include all Brexit positions? You may not agree there's positives to Brexit but surely you'd agree that if there are to be some then the UK will need to be able to agree it's own trade deals
Who says I get anything personally from Brexit? What you must remember is that there was a referendum near unanamously backed by all MP's where we were given a choice of remaining or leaving, I chose to leave as did the majority of voters in the full knowledge of what it meant (granted no one of course knows everything) yet someone I'm being castigated as the bad guy here.
I feel let down by parliament in general but yes I blame the Tories more because ultimately they've been in power since the referendum and haven't been able to deliver it.
We have discussed this before but you ignore everyones responses, I've always said I don't hate everything about the EU - it does lots of good things but that doesn't mean everything it does is good. And as to what I believe in well I believe that decision making rests with the people and whilst we're members of the EU it no longer rests with the people. You've said before that you believe it provides a good safety net but my belief is that the safety net is provided by the British people as in if we don't like something the government does we wait a maximum of 5 years and boot them out and if the people want it everything implemented previously can be changed in a matter of weeks. The country is generally liberal and diverse enough that nothing extreme bar the odd thing here and there will be tolerated and if they try it and it's that controversial it will either fail due to a few rebels or it will be repealed enough. Take climate change if the people think it to be an important issue and it seems they do then it will get the prominence it needs and will become a cuicial issue in an election campaign and who wins can implement it, we don't need the EU to decide our climate policy. Same thing with workers rights etc.
Again I've said before many things about the EU could be tolerated but things like the Lisbon treaty have slowly degenerated it, if it had remained with the original aims of a trading block which 99% of people were happy with then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Why does the EU get to have power over what budget deficit we run for instance? Then you look at the democracy of it, how does the UK propose an EU law for the UK, answer is it can't - it can only propose a law that benefits a majority of member states which as it grows and grows becomes more and more difficult. How do we hold the EU commission to account? How is the EU dealing with topical issues e.g. how does freedom of movement square with climate change
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Cheers for the considered reply.
Does negotiating our own trade deals give us an advantage? It is debatable. Positives and negatives on both sides and the conclusion is pretty balanced.
+ives of brexit UK led trade deals
-ives of brexit and UK led trade deals
Who is castigating you as the bad guy! I'll knock em out! You are definitely not the bad guy. What you voted for was logical. Rational. Reasoned. The premise of Brexit is good. Give the UK control. Sweet. Allow us to make laws - ofcourse. We're overpopulated, so lets control our currently open borders. All makes sense to me.
The bad guys are those who either knowingly, or incompetently, led people to believe it was all that simple.
Brexit was the victory of simple lies over complex truth. But it is not your fault. If you have Farrage saying he wants a Norway exit prevote, and now he says he wants No Deal exit - you can see how complex and how 'make it up as you go along' this has all been. No one saw the now completely obvious issues in Ireland. No one saw the extent to which that was an issue. So even the most informed people who have studied economics, global politics etc etc were not fully abreast of all of this. Because it had never been done. If they tell you they were - they are also lying. What economists etc could see was that if you make a list of postives and negatives from the outcomes of Brexit, the negatives outweigh the positives.
Does negotiating our own trade deals give us an advantage? It is debatable. Positives and negatives on both sides and the conclusion is pretty balanced.
+ives of brexit UK led trade deals
- We only have our needs and the other nations needs to satisfy. Its a big one, and yes there is potential here.
- Am genuinely struggling to think of other positives. Maybe this first one is it, is a massive plus in itself. It could be.
-ives of brexit and UK led trade deals
- We have to pay for a new infrastructure to conduct these deals. Probably millions a year. A larger UK government.
- A smaller nation is less attractive to speak with than the EU. The EU will always have another country's ear because of its size. We're 10% of the size of EU.
- It is dog eat dog, no nation will give away stuff for fun. They will protect their own as we will. How will we coerce other nations to give us better trade terms than the EU gets with 550m consumers vs our 60 odd million?
- Free trade agreements are notoriously difficult to put in place. We approach India, and say how about it? Let's trade freely together, but we don't want your cheap whiskey because it'd undercut our boys. India says okay pal, how about you give free immigration to 100,000 people a year to come and work in your nation? That is what they said. Then we'll let you have access to our 1b consumers. You only have 60m. Now you have to do this for every industry that each side wants to maintain and protect.
- Outside the EU, Europe won't have any need to protect our Whisky producers from India or the US - who make good Whisky pretty cheaply. Our Whisky producers currently sell into the EU and make a very very healthy living from it. We leave the party, the EU opens up to Indian Whisky etc - and the business and tax £s are not protected, and stop rolling in from the most affluent market in the world - the EU.
Who is castigating you as the bad guy! I'll knock em out! You are definitely not the bad guy. What you voted for was logical. Rational. Reasoned. The premise of Brexit is good. Give the UK control. Sweet. Allow us to make laws - ofcourse. We're overpopulated, so lets control our currently open borders. All makes sense to me.
The bad guys are those who either knowingly, or incompetently, led people to believe it was all that simple.
Brexit was the victory of simple lies over complex truth. But it is not your fault. If you have Farrage saying he wants a Norway exit prevote, and now he says he wants No Deal exit - you can see how complex and how 'make it up as you go along' this has all been. No one saw the now completely obvious issues in Ireland. No one saw the extent to which that was an issue. So even the most informed people who have studied economics, global politics etc etc were not fully abreast of all of this. Because it had never been done. If they tell you they were - they are also lying. What economists etc could see was that if you make a list of postives and negatives from the outcomes of Brexit, the negatives outweigh the positives.
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SpurMeUp
Les Howe
If you take the point that brexit actually doesn't deliver much to most people*, how can you deliver a positive Brexit? You promised it would be a good thing. This is the crux of the delays we've seen. That is why the ERG didn't back Mays deal, because it wasn't good for the UK.
*a few will find ways to use brexit to their advantage, brexit is a highly complex thing and with change there are opportunities, normally for the rich. The only Tory 'light at the end of the tunnel' is that we could get rid of things that protect non-wealthy people, so a few people can make more money.
I take your points and totally get your rationale. The UK should control its own laws. And actually we do. The important ones. There are some laws, mostly around trade and environmental issues we don't control. But I'd ask you to tell me which EU laws you don't like. Those that affect you negatively. Stopping pollution across a continent, making sure factory workers have (some level of) parity across a whole market are necessities to allow fair and free trade, that don't really hurt you or I. In fact they might protect us.
What you're telling me is the setup in the UK is pretty good. There are things we can change, there is poverty, frustrations etc. But we control these things now. Not the EU. We've benefited from the EU, not lost from it. Pre-EU the UK was in a shocking state with a 3 day week, power cuts etc. Do we really want to impair our economy by leaving so we can set our own factory emissions limits? In the detail brexit is irrational.
I hate to point it out, but all you've said in reply to what is the light at the end of the tunnel is that making our own trade agreements will be good, positive, which is highly debatable. And we want to be able to make laws that we didn't even notice. If we did you'd name the ones that bother you so much.
Errr when has the EU stopped us running a budget deficit? If you referring to Greece, the EU was bailing out the Greek economy so it would have a say in how it spent money (it didn't have).
The UK can propose EU laws that benefit the UK (and we have done a plenty especially around fiance and pharmaceuticals both EU regulators were based in London) . But lets be clear the vast majority of laws in European nations are controlled by the sovereign nation - not by the EU. There are only certain things that relate to trade or the environment that the EU covers. And it works both ways, other EU nations can't get laws through that don't benefit all other nations - that is the balance and protection! Why would you want to change that? If something does not work for us and everyone it's not getting implemented. Universal phone roaming across Europe - anyone have a problem with it in Germany...in the UK...in Greece....nope, and the law can pass. It is a fantastic protection, that should means EU laws are highly filtered and positive. The fact that you can't identify an EU law that affects you negatively shows that it really aint bad.
I don't know, how does FoM square with climate change? I think the relevant point here is, to affect global change - which is what you need to make positive updates to how we live within this world - then you have a much better chance with supernational powers. The UK will not affect China. Or be able to work with the US and set a prescident for the world. The EU can. And it can do it so it is fair on its members who it has to put first.
The EU is essentially boring. It deals with international laws, trade details etc etc. It has a terrible rep here (for reasons we've looked before re. reporting of it being dull unless you make it funny and negative). But the reality is, it is first and foremost a customs union. It is the most affluent free trade area in the world. Its government is the size of Birmingham council, taking a disproportionate number of people from the UK who help run it - in our national language. It saves the UK money, it does a lot of boring stuff we don't have to, and allows us to trade more freely.
Boris when considering whether to back Camron or go awol anti-EU, wrote a piece weighing up both sides. Its easy to find online. He actually thought that UK companies had more potential to exploit the EU market. And we do. We are a good trading nation, but we could be better. And we should be. We need a leader - dare I say it - like Boris who can shake things up, refresh politics, stop the same old cliches, and actually make real things happen. But that doesn't need to be whilst chopping off our free trade, and damaging our economy.
Anyhooo, I probably owe you a beer for the grief and reading the longest post I've ever written on here. The devil is in the detail. Those selling you crap don't want you to know the detail.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
When people prove they need less central government, then you can have your Libertarian shangri-la. Until then, face the fact that the majority of the public allow their “political decision making” to be dictated by twitter, The Daily Mail and bus sloganeering, we will need central government. The main problem is that most people cannot figure out the difference between “mildly self-serving but somewhat civic minded public servants” versus “absolute full-bore self-serving filth pigs who will throw you onto the tube tracks whilst convincing you they were trying to save you from being shoved by an immigrant who already took your job”...
So get rid of all of them and we don't need to know the difference.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
People or politicians?
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
What exactly is Administrative Detention?
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
I think that's what I got once for giving some bird at school my digits behind the bike shed
Not sure, but if Jo Maugham is against it, it must be a good thing.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Ha, ha remember a few years ago when I said you were really a Trot? There is proof positive, you espousing Marx's theory of the withering away of the state.
If all you're interested in is superficial comparison, then yes.
Marx believed that by all becoming the lowest common denominator there would be no need for the state as he believed (wrongly) it was the state's role to level the playing field. My belief is that there is (almost) no need for the state at all and that there is no problem with rewarding the successful and not rewarding underachievers.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Bye bye all the votes in Victimpool.