Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[scaramanga]

Questions remain though if it is so easy to come up with a system that works a) why can no one give a clear guide on how it would work & b) why isn't it being used elsewhere so that it can just be copied? At the moment it is still just vague Witterings and pipe dreams and no concrete workable solutions or details.

The EU has a number of borders and they all work pretty well. They've just managed to spin the rhetoric so that having a normal border in Ireland will somehow be the UK destroying peace.

I say we tell the EU we won't be putting up a border in Ireland and leave it in their court. Make it loudly public too that we won't be putting up a border. Let's see if the EU has the balls to put one up and take the blame.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

If there is a ‘benefit culture’ - and I’m not sure there is one - it was created, in my opinion, as a result of Thatcherism. It’s what happens when you shut down entire industries too quickly without any plan as to what the people employed in them (and educated only to be employed in them) will do when those industries don’t exist any longer.

Ive seen for myself growing up people actively taking a benefit lifestyle as a career job. Its easy, get knocked up really young, go cap in hand to the council and youre set for life. Alternatively, give yourself a diagnosis of depression/anxiety and youre away, if kids arent your thing.

This all came up and exploded under Blair.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The EU has a number of borders and they all work pretty well. They've just managed to spin the rhetoric so that having a normal border in Ireland will somehow be the UK destroying peace.

I say we tell the EU we won't be putting up a border in Ireland and leave it in their court. Make it loudly public too that we won't be putting up a border. Let's see if the EU has the balls to put one up and take the blame.

Not sure it is an EU led thing. The backstop was invented by the UK government as a way to mitigate the dangers of destroying the good friday agreement. People in Ireland are very clear that a border is a symbol that would cause distress and and ignite some violence. If the UK wants to be outside the customs union, then you can't have a porous border where goods (and people) could move seemlessly from the EU into Britian. If that is what you want to happen - then stay in the stupid customs union!

 

[SpurMeUp]

Ive seen for myself growing up people actively taking a benefit lifestyle as a career job. Its easy, get knocked up really young, go cap in hand to the council and youre set for life. Alternatively, give yourself a diagnosis of depression/anxiety and youre away, if kids arent your thing.

This all came up and exploded under Blair.

"set for life" is how much exactly a week?

 

[Rorschach]

Not sure it is an EU led thing. The backstop was invented by the UK government as a way to mitigate the dangers of destroying the good friday agreement. People in Ireland are very clear that a border is a symbol that would cause distress and and ignite some violence. If the UK wants to be outside the customs union, then you can't have a porous border where goods (and people) could move seemlessly from the EU into Britian. If that is what you want to happen - then stay in the stupid customs union!

There is a knock on effect too. There was EU resistance to introducing the UK wide backstop to begin with, but it was reluctantly pushed through as solution to the impasse. The current backstop gives unfettered access to the single market. Once the backstop is no longer in play, the future trade agreement will be subject to the conditions imposed by 27 separate countries and each has a veto. Playing chicken with the border will just poison the well and destroy any future trade negotiations for years. The obvious solution is just to go back to a NI only backstop with checks at the ports.

 

[scaramanga]

Not sure it is an EU led thing. The backstop was invented by the UK government as a way to mitigate the dangers of destroying the good friday agreement. People in Ireland are very clear that a border is a symbol that would cause distress and and ignite some violence. If the UK wants to be outside the customs union, then you can't have a porous border where goods (and people) could move seemlessly from the EU into Britian. If that is what you want to happen - then stay in the stupid customs union!

I'd be perfectly happy with being out of the customs union (and free to trade with whomever we wish on whichever terms we wish) with an open border in Ireland.

If the EU want a border there, let them put one up.

 

[Grays_1890]

I'd be perfectly happy with being out of the customs union (and free to trade with whomever we wish on whichever terms we wish) with an open border in Ireland.

If the EU want a border there, let them put one up.

Bingo

 

[scaramanga]

Bingo

Can't see that knobhead Leo the teashaker voting for a border either.

Play them at their own game - let them choose between giving us something and doing something they don't want.

 

[Grays_1890]

Can't see that knobhead Leo the teashaker voting for a border either.

Play them at their own game - let them choose between giving us something and doing something they don't want.

Spot on, exactly how it should be played, its almost a game and we should play them at it.

We are looking after ourself, you need to decide how you want to do this for your members, balls in your court. See ya

 

[Rorschach]

LOL

 

[Gutter Boy]

The EU has a number of borders and they all work pretty well. They've just managed to spin the rhetoric so that having a normal border in Ireland will somehow be the UK destroying peace.

I say we tell the EU we won't be putting up a border in Ireland and leave it in their court. Make it loudly public too that we won't be putting up a border. Let's see if the EU has the balls to put one up and take the blame.

Coveney already admitted on Andrew Marr last week that the EU plan for no deal is to do checks away from the border when they arrive at importers' premise. A kind of alternative arrangement you might say

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'd be perfectly happy with being out of the customs union (and free to trade with whomever we wish on whichever terms we wish) with an open border in Ireland.

If the EU want a border there, let them put one up.

So we wouldn't control our own borders. Any goods or immigrants could come in by the backdoor. If you're a refugee all you'd need is a plane ticket to ireland and you'd access London etc. It really makes no odds who puts border controls in does it? If border controls are there and the IRA are bombing London as they used to - anyone remember hearing the Brent Cross flyover bomb go off? - what does it matter who put the border up? Your suggestion is to ignore the issue and hope the problem will go away - it won't. So much for taking back contol.

Whats more you don't seem to see the irony of suggesting a 'solution' which emulates how the EU works now!

 

[scaramanga]

So we wouldn't control our own borders. Any goods or immigrants could come in by the backdoor. If you're a refugee all you'd need is a plane ticket to ireland and you'd access London etc. It really makes no odds who puts border controls in does it? If border controls are there and the IRA are bombing London as they used to - anyone remember hearing the Brent Cross flyover bomb go off? - what does it matter who put the border up? You're suggestion is to ignore the issue and hope the problem will go away - it won't. So much for taking back contol.

I want goods and people to move freely - that's the point. What I don't want is to be forced by the EU to decide which people and goods we are allowed to bring in.

Your hyperbole about the IRA is just that. There's no way in a million fudging years the EU will put a border in Ireland - even less likely that their teashaker will leave his veto up his arse if they vote on it.

That's why this plan works and why it's such a good one - it traps the EU into giving us a frictionless deal or putting a border in Ireland - those will be their only options.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I want goods and people to move freely - that's the point. What I don't want is to be forced by the EU to decide which people and goods we are allowed to bring in.

Your hyperbole about the IRA is just that. There's no way in a million fudging years the EU will put a border in Ireland - even less likely that their teashaker will leave his veto up his arse if they vote on it.

That's why this plan works and why it's such a good one - it traps the EU into giving us a frictionless deal or putting a border in Ireland - those will be their only options.

Or fuking us on our trade terms until we acquiesce. And...as we know these are the people we trade most with, and need most. Sadly your ideas are pie in the sky. You either work with people. Or not. If you tell them to stuff it, they won't be working with us. Won't be giving us trade terms we need. And when the other side 'holds the cards' you don't get to dictate. It's so simple, and has been since the get go. Have you visited Brexiteer Dreamworld? Its beautiful with deluded people swanning around a fantasy world.

 

[scaramanga]

Or fuking us on our trade terms until we acquiesce. And...as we know these are the people we trade most with, and need most. Sadly your ideas are pie in the sky. You either work with people. Or not. If you tell them to stuff it, they won't be working with us. And when the other side 'holds the cards' you don't get to dictate. It's so simple, and has been since the get go. Have you visited Brexiteer Dreamworld? Its beautiful with deluded people swanning around a fantasy.

We don't need trade terms - there won't be a border. If they want to start a trade war then we retaliate with a tax war.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We don't need trade terms - there won't be a border. If they want to start a trade war then we retaliate with a tax war.

I think Rorschach summed it up beautifully - LOL

 

[scaramanga]

I think Rorschach summed it up beautifully - LOL

OK then. I've shown you how my cards play - tell me by what mechanism the EU will have Ireland just forget their veto, choose not to be a massively profitable part of a customs runaround and/or put up a border between them and NI.

Edit: Just to expand on that;

If we don't put up a border then the EU must either put up a border or agree to frictionless, tariffless trade. So the question becomes, where does the EU put their border?

Do they put in between Ireland and NI? Ireland will veto that.
Do they put it between the EU and Ireland? Ireland will veto that.

So where exactly can/would the EU put a border? The truth is they have weaponised the Good Friday Agreement in an attempt to stop Brexit happening and trap us into their petty bureaucracy forever. What my plan does is completely disarm that bomb (metaphor entirely intentional) and make it worthless as a weapon.

 

[Grays_1890]

I want goods and people to move freely - that's the point. What I don't want is to be forced by the EU to decide which people and goods we are allowed to bring in.

Your hyperbole about the IRA is just that. There's no way in a million fudging years the EU will put a border in Ireland - even less likely that their teashaker will leave his veto up his arse if they vote on it.

That's why this plan works and why it's such a good one - it traps the EU into giving us a frictionless deal or putting a border in Ireland - those will be their only options.

Yeh exactly, the facts are that the EU has as much responsibility to Ireland as we do to Northern Ireland in this deal.

 

[SpurMeUp]

OK then. I've shown you how my cards play - tell me by what mechanism the EU will have Ireland just forget their veto, choose not to be a massively profitable part of a customs runaround and/or put up a border between them an NI.

If I have to spell it out...

What you are suggesting is to enter into a protracted trade war with the EU. The worlds largest customs union. While this plays out (and we lose by the way), our industry goes to the dogs. The City of London money moves to Paris bit by bit. Car firms up sticks, and generally the country steps backwards. Tax revenue drops meaning less money for essential services, and unemployment rises. It'd take some time, but the EU won't be in a rush to resolve our mess. Meanwhile things we've bought from europe for decades are harder and more expensive to buy. Moving in and out of europe is harder for goods and people.

Tax cuts won't attract companies enough tto compensate becuase these international entities won't have access to the 500m EU consumers as they do now. Europe and London beingt a gateway for the likes of Japanese and US firms. Sony already uped sticks. So while you're playing billy big balls trying to fight the EU, the country regresses, suffers, steps backwards. And you're fighting a fight that has no benifit, no end game with light at the end of it. And what are you trying to achieve? A setup like the EU, without being in the EU. Makes perfect sense!

 

[scaramanga]

If I have to spell it out...

What you are suggesting is to enter into a protracted trade war with the EU. The worlds largest customs union. While this plays out (and we lose by the way), our industry goes to the dogs. The City of London money moves to Paris bit by bit. Car firms up sticks, and generally the country steps backwards. Tax revenue drops meaning less money for essential services, and unemployment rises. It'd take some time, but the EU won't be in a rush to resolve our mess. Meanwhile things we've bought from europe for decades are harder and more expensive to buy. Moving in and out of europe is harder for goods and people.

Tax cuts won't attract companies enough tto compensate becuase these international entities won't have access to the 500m EU consumers as they do now. Europe and London beingt a gateway for the likes of Japanese and US firms. Sony already uped sticks. So while you're playing billy big balls trying to fight the EU, the country regresses, suffers, steps backwards. And you're fighting a fight that has no benifit, no end game with light at the end of it. And what are you trying to achieve? A setup like the EU, without being in the EU. Makes perfect sense!

That's the same disaster scenario rhetoric you've been spouting for months now. I asked you two specific questions (although the second was in an edit so you may have missed it).

1. Under what mechanism will the EU force Ireland to put up a border it doesn't want?
2. Where will the EU put the border that Ireland doesn't want?
   1. Between Ireland and NI (Ireland will veto)
   2. Between Ireland and the EU (Ireland will veto)

So let's forget the hyperbole and talk specifics. What exactly will the EU do to create a trade war? How can it even begin a trade war when it can't border off the country it wants said war with?