Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Rorschach]

Isn't this exactly why they lost, telling everyone the economy is great whilst voters continuously keep saying they felt poorer. Isn't what you've described basically trickle down economics? GDP is an outdated measure now, people should be looking at more quality of life measures like health care, numeracy, literacy, clean air etc.

Dems should have gone for Bernie when they had the chance, he would have been a great candidate. They'll probably do more of the same next time around.

You've said a few times you don't believe there will be another election again, I really don't see that happening at all.

I agree on GDP. Stupid beyond belief to be still using it but this is the way it is unfortunately.

My main point was that you can get anyone to believe anything if you hammer the message home repeatedly. A good example is crime in the US, which is well down, but everyone thinks it is out of control because this is the message coming from the right. And they are good at drumming home their message in ways the left can only stand and admire.

And on Bernie I would agree. I thought he was great, but such a risk to the status quo was never going to be allowed, including by the establishment dems. Warren was the next best choice and for one brief moment she had some momentum and then she too was removed from the picture using the power of negative messaging. At this point for the left to beat back growing facism they should borrow from the right's playbook but adapt it to their needs. They need their own populist movement maybe with a charismatic figurehead and try to somehow dominate or at least win back some of information space. This is the battle they have soundly lost to date. Twitter being the latest casualty.

I said no more free elections, not no more elections. Think Russia style elections.

 

[Grays_1890]

"protests were about knife crime"

A lot of that is me, and I suspect that is the majority of people.
I don't actively go seeking out wrongs or causes but if I'm in a situation where I can influence the debate I will try to.
A big, big problem though is that people are afraid to speak up because they are labelled.
This is especially a problem on the "left" or "progressive" side, and I don't like using labels like that, where it does feel very much like you have to be 100% in agreement, where everything you say and do and have said and done will be scrutinised and woe betide if you get it wrong.

You need to take people with you, because what you coerced people into agreeing with in public isn't always reflected in the privacy of the voting booth.

I agree with alot of what you say but there are limits to things and how much you pander to people on either side of the argument. I think we need to do something about the climate, thats absolutely clear in my eyes, but do we pander to Just Stop Oils level of militancy and say that what they do is not criminality because they have a message? On the other side, and I get I am a broken record, do we allow mosques to be attacked under the guise of "fear of knives and immigration" when it again is a clear right wing attack? Sometimes you have to call something and some messaging out for what it is and not live in fear of people saying "you are not listening to us" when frankly people are just being d1cks

The "ohhhhh you are just labelling me" line seems to be the go to for alot of people these days when the labels are justified. So on one hand yeh we have to pull people through and understand concerns, on the other I don't think we can allow criminality and lies to be packaged and sold as "our fears" which is what seems to be happening IMO

 

[glasgowspur]

"protests were about knife crime"


I agree with alot of what you say but there are limits to things and how much you pander to people on either side of the argument. I think we need to do something about the climate, thats absolutely clear in my eyes, but do we pander to Just Stop Oils level of militancy and say that what they do is not criminality because they have a message? On the other side, and I get I am a broken record, do we allow mosques to be attacked under the guise of "fear of knives and immigration" when it again is a clear right wing attack? Sometimes you have to call something and some messaging out for what it is and not live in fear of people saying "you are not listening to us" when frankly people are just being d1cks

I think we need to also accept that not everyone is articulate, comfortable speaking publicly , are intimidated or don't feel knowledgeable enough to put their head above the parapet.
Speaking for myself I call it where I see it and how I see it.
I am in no way saying pander to anyone, wrong is wrong and if you feel comfortable calling it out you should. What I feel is missing is that some can be educated to see the error in their behaviour, and for the vast majority of them it wouldn't take much.
We fudge up, we all do stuff we regret, there are things that we all do out of rage and anger that even as we do them we know are wrong.
This behaviour is not always indicative of the real person, they can be brought back into the real world.
The utter cretins that see this as their place in life, there's no hope for them, they deserve anything and everything coming to them.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think we need to also accept that not everyone is articulate, comfortable speaking publicly , are intimidated or don't feel knowledgeable enough to put their head above the parapet.
Speaking for myself I call it where I see it and how I see it.
I am in no way saying pander to anyone, wrong is wrong and if you feel comfortable calling it out you should. What I feel is missing is that some can be educated to see the error in their behaviour, and for the vast majority of them it wouldn't take much.
We fudge up, we all do stuff we regret, there are things that we all do out of rage and anger that even as we do them we know are wrong.
This behaviour is not always indicative of the real person, they can be brought back into the real world.
The utter cretins that see this as their place in life, there's no hope for them, they deserve anything and everything coming to them.

Again I agree with that BUT its difficult to vacuum those who are unable to articulate it and or are scared to speak up because the extremism on either side will hold them in their bosom and then it becomes difficult or near impossible to change. Sounds defeatist but I strongly believe it, Trumps a life criminal and a rapist, he has these people on a string, to the point now where if you questions the criminality its seemingly only strengthens his grip on those people. Thats a strange place to be in, when you can't call out someone for the crimes they commit at risk of strengthening their hold on people.

I think we are in a really bad place in the world where there is a gun to our heads really. Its sad, totally sad

 

[SkipRat]

Isn't this exactly why they lost, telling everyone the economy is great whilst voters continuously keep saying they felt poorer. Isn't what you've described basically trickle down economics? GDP is an outdated measure now, people should be looking at more quality of life measures like health care, numeracy, literacy, clean air etc.

Dems should have gone for Bernie when they had the chance, he would have been a great candidate. They'll probably do more of the same next time around.

You've said a few times you don't believe there will be another election again, I really don't see that happening at all.

Yup, it was insane not to have taken Bernie, especially as he was actually offering change which is what the Americans were crying for at the time.

But they went with Hilary because she represent the corporate and financial sectors...

We have had Trump 2x now, Brexit, incompetant Tory government voted in, time after time, until they got punished for not doing what they promised.

They just never learn, they never listen, they push agendas based on garbage...

Then they lie...

 

[glasgowspur]

Again I agree with that BUT its difficult to vacuum those who are unable to articulate it and or are scared to speak up because the extremism on either side will hold them in their bosom and then it becomes difficult or near impossible to change. Sounds defeatist but I strongly believe it, Trumps a life criminal and a rapist, he has these people on a string, to the point now where if you questions the criminality its seemingly only strengthens his grip on those people. Thats a strange place to be in, when you can't call out someone for the crimes they commit at risk of strengthening their hold on people.

I think we are in a really bad place in the world where there is a gun to our heads really. Its sad, totally sad

Trump has a grip because he isn't judging them, he's not holding them to some totally unachievable ideal.
He allows them to be themselves (see the irony), he accepts them warts and all.
He listens to their concerns, he engages.
It's all flimflam bs, but he gives them what they want.
Most people are not politically aware, they bring you a grievance, pat them on the head, tell them you will sort it, make them feel listened to, important for 5 minutes and they will go away happy.
The right understand that, the left really, really don't.
It will switch, given time it will change again.
Blair, for all his faults, understood it, so it will switch round again, probably when the right over stretch themselves and people see who they really are.

 

[SkipRat]

"protests were about knife crime"


I agree with alot of what you say but there are limits to things and how much you pander to people on either side of the argument. I think we need to do something about the climate, thats absolutely clear in my eyes, but do we pander to Just Stop Oils level of militancy and say that what they do is not criminality because they have a message? On the other side, and I get I am a broken record, do we allow mosques to be attacked under the guise of "fear of knives and immigration" when it again is a clear right wing attack? Sometimes you have to call something and some messaging out for what it is and not live in fear of people saying "you are not listening to us" when frankly people are just being d1cks

The "ohhhhh you are just labelling me" line seems to be the go to for alot of people these days when the labels are justified. So on one hand yeh we have to pull people through and understand concerns, on the other I don't think we can allow criminality and lies to be packaged and sold as "our fears" which is what seems to be happening IMO

Of course not, and 99% of people who have issues with knife crime and immigration think rioting, setting let buildings with people in is wrong and don't support it and agree that they deserve what they got.

But just as the actions of the Just Stop Oil are used to tarnish everyone who thinks that climate change is man made is a left wing nut job and it's all a hoax...

You are using the actions of small group of rioters, not all of whom were far right, to tarnish everyone as far right.

And that is what Starmer did and that is why he has lost the country.

All it does is create tension, distrust, anger, and pushes people away.

 

[SkipRat]

Trump has a grip because he isn't judging them, he's not holding them to some totally unachievable ideal.
He allows them to be themselves (see the irony), he accepts them warts and all.
He listens to their concerns, he engages.
It's all flimflam bs, but he gives them what they want.
Most people are not politically aware, they bring you a grievance, pat them on the head, tell them you will sort it, make them feel listened to, important for 5 minutes and they will go away happy.
The right understand that, the left really, really don't.
It will switch, given time it will change again.
Blair, for all his faults, understood it, so it will switch round again, probably when the right over stretch themselves and people see who they really are.

I am not sure to behonest.

That's the worrying thing.

 

[Grays_1890]

Trump has a grip because he isn't judging them, he's not holding them to some totally unachievable ideal.
He allows them to be themselves (see the irony), he accepts them warts and all.
He listens to their concerns, he engages.
It's all flimflam bs, but he gives them what they want.
Most people are not politically aware, they bring you a grievance, pat them on the head, tell them you will sort it, make them feel listened to, important for 5 minutes and they will go away happy.
The right understand that, the left really, really don't.
It will switch, given time it will change again.
Blair, for all his faults, understood it, so it will switch round again, probably when the right over stretch themselves and people see who they really are.

I agree with this to a point, I think there is a massive snake oil sales pitch with Trump, I don't think he is listening, I think he is aligning himself with the values people are clearly showing, the two are different IMO which is where my concerns come from. We have to listen to people absolutely, but we have to call bigotry out when its prevalent and obvious otherwise we will see the breakdown of society.

I probably spend too much time on twitter and social media reading through the BS, but its now the battle ground for politics IMO, thats why Musk wanted it. Its become too much of a safe space for too many extreme voices and for me the likes of Trump muddy the waters between listening to concerns AND allowing misinformed and hateful views to grow and spread.

 

[glasgowspur]

I agree with this to a point, I think there is a massive snake oil sales pitch with Trump, I don't think he is listening, I think he is aligning himself with the values people are clearly showing, the two are different IMO which is where my concerns come from. We have to listen to people absolutely, but we have to call bigotry out when its prevalent and obvious otherwise we will see the breakdown of society.

I probably spend too much time on twitter and social media reading through the BS, but its now the battle ground for politics IMO, thats why Musk wanted it. Its become too much of a safe space for too many extreme voices and for me the likes of Trump muddy the waters between listening to concerns AND allowing misinformed and hateful views to grow and spread.

Every politician, every single one of them is a snake oil salesman.
They are not interested in you, they are only interested in your vote.
Trump isn't listening, he's only pretending to, but that's better than being told to go away, or there is nothing to worry, you're wrong or you're just a bigot so shut up.
I avoid all social media, it's poison.
I watch golf and modelling videos on YouTube, that's all. I won't follow anyone on it with more than half million subscribers, YouTubers are trying to sell you something or influence you.
Social media is easy money for a lot of people, their opinions are not real, they are telling you something to get money from you.
It's the new dollars for jesus.

 

[Rorschach]

The militancy of the climate movement has not even begun really. To think that the actions of groups like JSO represent the more radical end of the scale is naive. They are just the beginning. "How to Blow Up a Pipeline" outlines the progression of all such protest movements back through history and how they end up becoming violent. The strategic pacifism employed by climate movements will disappear as things get more desperate.