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Players or Manager?

I don't understand the title of this thread. We haven't had a manager since 2012, so why ask a question about a role that's been abandoned by our club?

We currently have Levy who's taken a back seat on footballing matters, Poch coaching and picking the first team and Baldini lurking in the shadows. But no one leading. We don't appear to have a coherent policy on anything at the moment. Until that changes, the players don't stand a chance.
 
I don't get the stubborn argument with Poch. He has played different formations, has adjusted his tactics and has changed things during games.

He does have a preferred formation but so do all managers and it is one that this squad has been tailored for.

I think the stubborn argument just gets thrown around a lot without much in terms of an argument supporting it.

Repeatedly when it does get used a post like yours rather effectively questions the whole premise of it. And is as far as I've seen at least is then rather effectively ignored.

I've been a bit grumpy due to man-flu and last night's performance/result. I'm not 100% convinced that Pochettino is doing a good job just now, because I think the squad is capable of better performances. Unfortunately, Pochettino is a 'system manager' in that he plays 'a system' that needs a particular style or type of player to be successful. He's not as stubborn as AVB in terms of his formation, but there are general elements of his style that he does not waiver from and for which the squad isn't entirely suited.

I am HOPING that we have a meeting of minds for once. My worry is that Levy brought in Pochettino with the belief that he will work with what we have and in particular work with the 'not-so-magnificent-7' and improve them.

What Poch really needs to be successful is a radical overhaul of the squad. If he gets backed in this regard, it will be interesting to see if he will create a successful, attractive team.

I can sum up the constants in Pochettino's system:

*high-intensity press all over the pitch;
*move the ball forward quickly in the transition;
*always plays two forwards, the only change is that depending on the game, one might drop back into the hole or be right up alongside the main forward;
*favours attacking full-backs for width rather than traditional wingers;

Looking at the squad, I think I can assess it as follows in relation to being able to work in Poch's system:

Lloris - perfect for the system
Vorm - perfect for the system

Walker - perfect for the system
Yedlin - perfect for the system
Naughton - looks a good fit as back-up but with yedlin's arrival i'd imagine he'll be surplus to requirements

Rose - perfect for the system
Davies - this is a weird one in terms of us buying him as the difference to Poch's system working with Rose in the team is staggering. I just don't think Davies offers enough on the over-lap or in terms of bombing up and down to suit Poch's system or make it work. I find this extraordinary given he is a new signing and it is another example of the stunning incompetence of the club's recent transfer activity. If he wasn't brand new i'd be saying bin him, but we will probably have to give him the chance to show what he can do
Assou-Ekotto - personally, I think he'd be better suited to the back-up to Rose role, but he appears to be exiled from the club at the minute so I expect him to go

Personally, I think we could do with an attacking left-back more in the Rose-mould as back-up.

Kaboul - makes too many mistakes for someone that plays in a high-press system and doesn't release the ball forward or early enough
Vertonghen - in theory well suited to the system and seems to be getting better under Poch, we will see
Fazio - seems to be a Poch pick and after a shaky start, appears to be forming a solid looking partnership with Vertonghen - hopefully
Dier - in theory should do well in the system at CB, good passer of the ball, good on the ball, plays the ball early and forward
Chiriches - in theory should be good in the system, but not convinced he is seen as a good enough defender, makes too many mistakes for a high press system to work

I'd say we need at least one more CB and to get rid of Chiriches and Kaboul

Dembele - doesn't release the ball early enough
Paulinho - isn't aggressive enough, mobile enough or comfortable releasing the ball early
Capoue - releases the ball early, but doesn't have enough self-confidence to release it forward into dangerous positions, which is key to making Poch's tactics work. Also not mobile enough to cover the ground needed in the press
Stambouli - of the 'senior' (over 24 yr old) players he looks most suitable for the system, although he hasnt played in the Premiership yet and i'd suggest he's more a back-up long-term in terms of quality
Bentaleb - looks perfect for the system
Mason - looks well suited to the system

I think central midfield actually needs the greatest amount of attention. Other than Bentaleb and Mason the players don't look 100% suited to making Pochettino's tactics work. They're both inexperienced and could do with at least one senior player to help out in this area. The return of Carroll could provide another body next season, if we feel he's developed to the required standard while at Swansea.

Lennon - okay he is a traditional winger, but because of his intelligence and close control, he has looked good in Poch's system. However I think Walker's return could change/hamper him, although I believe he can adapt and play a different role that would work in Poch's system. Bizarrely, he was played through the middle a lot in pre-season and even more bizarrely, this seemed to be pretty effective, although it was just pre-season
Townsend - similar to others in the squad, just does not release the ball early enough for me to be successful in this system
Lamela - I think he should work, he presses well and aggressively, has lots of stamina, technique and does try the early pass quite regularly. Just not coming off for him but the ingredients are there to be successful in this system
Eriksen - seems perfect for the system really, although he is a quality player with a great attitude and they're prefect for any system 2bf

I do think we need to invest in at least one wide-forward

In terms of the 'shadow' or secondary forward, I think both Chadli and Kane look very capable in this role and potentially this will be Lamela's long-term role if he stays at Spurs too so I think we look well-stocked here

In terms of the centre-forward role, I think along with central midfield this needs the greatest work as 2bh we are being royally let down by our lack of any effective centre-forward.

We should have murdered Besiktas in the first half last night but in the end we lost and while you can point to Kaboul's brainfart leading to their goal, at the end of the day, it shouldnt have made a difference and I lay the blame last night squarely on Soldado's shoulders.

It wasn't just the sitters he was missing, it was the fact that with Rose & Walker in the side, we were putting in a lot of dangerous balls and crosses from wide areas, but there was nobody getting on the end of them. I'm thinking "where the f*** is Soldado?" Time and again he was fannying about on the edge of the box while Rose or Walker smacked in a dangerous ball to nobody. Also, Townsend put in a couple of actually quite dangerous free-kicks, bent right into the danger area. Again, an in-form quality foward would be at least throwing himself at the ball and making a nuisance of himself.

In terms of the squad by position its kind of looking like:

..............................LLORIS
...............................Vorm

WALKER..........FAZIO........VERTONGHEN.........ROSE
Yedlin............???????.............Dier................??????

...................BENTALEB.......??????????
.....................???????...........Mason

LENNON.................................................ERIKSEN
Lamela....................KANE........................???????
.............................Chadli

.............................???????
.............................???????

Very good post.

I don't get what's happened since Bale left that makes people pine for the vast majority of the current players to be kept around.
 
Don't know .. is it ever that easy? much like I want Lamela & Soldado to click, same for Poch, just things have to change

- Blaming the players is an easy cop out, Madrid could have a better keeper, doesn't mean they roll over.
- To judge players, the manager has to enable them to play well

If Poch started

- Picking a set back pair
- Not using inverted.wingers without Rose/Walker to compensate
- Create an option (wonky?) that gives us width without suicidal FB play
- Play two up front except against the very best teams
- Increase the tempo of playing, consistently
- Not subbing the wrong players
- Leave Capoue/Kaboul/Ade out of EPL starting lineup

If he did that simple **** well, I personally would be a little more patient with him and I think others would as well.

p.s. edit as someone is sure to jump in, did the above and sticked to it for a run of games ..

We don't roll over either. Several of our players have been enabled to play well.

I agree with some of the stuff you point out. A settled back 2, increasing the tempo and the rather circular not subbing the wrong players is obviously difficult to argue against.

He has been picking a set back 2 and he has been leaving out the 3 players you mention. But you make it sound like this was the easiest and most obvious things in the world to just do all along and I disagree.

Was it really that simple to just throw Fazio in at the deep end, ignore the issues with Vertonghen from last season and start the two of them all along? Was it really that easy to just drop Adebayor after he was one of our standout players in the second half of last season? Is it really that easy to consistently increase the tempo of playing?

On other things I just disagree that the things you seem to be saying are the obvious right decisions are obvious or right. There are more than one ways to skin a cat as the expression goes.
 
We don't roll over either. Several of our players have been enabled to play well.

I agree with some of the stuff you point out. A settled back 2, increasing the tempo and the rather circular not subbing the wrong players is obviously difficult to argue against.

He has been picking a set back 2 and he has been leaving out the 3 players you mention. But you make it sound like this was the easiest and most obvious things in the world to just do all along and I disagree.

Was it really that simple to just throw Fazio in at the deep end, ignore the issues with Vertonghen from last season and start the two of them all along? Was it really that easy to just drop Adebayor after he was one of our standout players in the second half of last season? Is it really that easy to consistently increase the tempo of playing?

On other things I just disagree that the things you seem to be saying are the obvious right decisions are obvious or right. There are more than one ways to skin a cat as the expression goes.
I agree with the tempo. I think that it is something that we struggled to get right last season too. Sherwood frequently complained about the players not following instructions and not starting as fast as he wanted them too.

On the dropping players front. Dropping established players can be a sure way of losing the dressing room, particularly if they are not given a chance to prove themselves under a new manager.
 
Its obvious that the answer is both! I just posted in the Stambouli thread - if we'd known Mason and Bentaleb were to be first team starters we'd probably not have signed Stambouli. If we'd had a consistent manager, they would know who they want to bring through from the reserves, and we'd have a more strategic transfer policy. Maybe the question should be is it the players, manager or lack of consistency?

We, as humans, love to find simple patterns - x caused y. But the reality is it is a mixture of: manager finding his feet, a lot of similar level players finding their place in the team and a lack of consistency (of both first team players and management).

Could Poch have done more to get some consistency? Sherwood had the benifit of knowing the club and players here inside out. Poch had the world cup and he wants to be fair to all players, which is admirable. However, I hope he now becomes a little more ruthless, selecting HIS team and implementing his vision.
 
Its obvious that the answer is both! I just posted in the Stambouli thread - if we'd known Mason and Bentaleb were to be first team starters we'd probably not have signed Stambouli. If we'd had a consistent manager, they would know who they want to bring through from the reserves, and we'd have a more strategic transfer policy. Maybe the question should be is it the players, manager or lack of consistency?

We, as humans, love to find simple patterns - x caused y. But the reality is it is a mixture of: manager finding his feet, a lot of similar level players finding their place in the team and a lack of consistency (of both first team players and management).

Could Poch have done more to get some consistency? Sherwood had the benifit of knowing the club and players here inside out. Poch had the world cup and he wants to be fair to all players, which is admirable. However, I hope he now becomes a little more ruthless, selecting HIS team and implementing his vision.

Good post. I agree
 
That is laughable and frankly if true disgusting. Any prem player who says I don't get paid enough for that should be thrown out of football.
Quite a few Utd players over the years have been no better than average but because they have applied themselves won trophies. For the money they get paid that's the least they should do.
I don't know any other career where you can get paid what footballers get but if you don't work hard enough someone else gets the sack.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
That is laughable and frankly if true disgusting. Any prem player who says I don't get paid enough for that should be thrown out of football.
Quite a few Utd players over the years have been no better than average but because they have applied themselves won trophies. For the money they get paid that's the least they should do.
I don't know any other career where you can get paid what footballers get but if you don't work hard enough someone else gets the sack.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
It's why the single most important thing in football is mentality really. When you're lucky enough to have a team that have both skill and mentality that's when you win things. I see us as a squad who are quite long on skill but very short on true will to win. Sherwood called it right last season when he commented that most of the players wouldn't even be hurting that evening after losing, let alone all the way until the next game.

Any signing we make in Jan or This summer absolutely must have a winning mentality, we need at least 3 or 4 nasty ba5tards to drag some of our weak minded players up.
 
Players won today's game for us via Kane & Eriksen's ability and the desire to keep going.

Poch's bizarre insistence of keeping Lamela on for 82 minutes of dross, and making subs that indicated he had settled for the draw.
 
Today I think the system was in question. The midfield got torn apart at times and there were holes all over the place. I'd love to see us go with the 4321 that Southampton used, with Eriksen and Kane being the 2.
 
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