Performances over a season

[Jurgen the German]

I think we have to bear in mind that AVB didn't write this book. A portuguese journo wrote and its about the tactics he used during a season at Porto. I'm sure there's lots of stuff in there about he always uses a 433 as well.

This book must be bloody special the way some go on about it. It's like their bible.

 

[Jurgen the German]

That, in one sentence, sums up why English footballers, English managers and most of English football are sh1t.

No, it's mainly because at all levels of the game, we put too much emphasis on physical attributes instead of skill, technique and flair. And because we just don't have any/enough naturally gifted footballers, there's only a certain amount coaching can achieve.

I'm sorry but you can overanalyse things. Correct me If I'm wrong but don't you always say footballers are thick? Why overcomplicate things for them?

Of course preparation is vital, before we played West Ham, AVB said 'we will prepare for West Ham on the day of the game" and this is a man who is supposed to be famed for his preparation and analysis? :ross:

You can use as many stats as you like, if the results aren't good enough then what the hell good is it?

 

[DeanoAustin]

So you deny that planning for peak performance at certain times of the season takes place at clubs? I'm not saying it is always 'ramp it up at the end of the year', it may be clubs want to ramp it up at the start, manage a dip just before Christmas before ramping it up in February. And there could be a range of reasons why that is the case.

I would venture that clubs look at each other and what they expect to happen, and plan off of that. Arsenal look at their settled squad and the transitional period of their rivals and probably decide that capitalising on that is worthwhile to build up a head of steam. Ditto Liverpool. I don't know if this is exactly what they are doing but it definitely takes place in clubs, I definitely expect them both to have a dip in form at some point and it wouldn't surprise me if that has been the plan. In other years, they may plan to be firing at whichever other point in the season they so desire.

Wigan were 100% prepared to ramp up the intensity towards the end of seasons. That it didn't work (even though they won the FA Cup, so it still kind of did) last year could possibly be put down to injuries, or due to the fact that their rivals - such as Villa - cottoned on to their strategy and with their superior squads decided to match Wigan's intensity at the same point, and were able to pull away. It was no coincidence that every single year they would look like utter no hopers and out of nowhere start playing what was often times quite gorgeous football.

As for your last line, it's ridiculously harsh on our performances last season. Simple as that. But I'm not even saying that the whole thing is to make sure we are firing at the end. It is also about making sure we are firing at certain points within games. That 100% certainly is AVB's strategy. It's been written down and documented. And it's that rest with the ball, not exerting ourselves in pointless games and ramping up the intensity when needed, which is going to allow us to play matches right across a season on our terms.

It's hard to argue with your logic because you're dismissing every run of form as something that's planned yet runs of form have existed as long as football.

What injuries did wigan have that caused them a disastrous run of form when you think they were primed to perform?

Who of our rivals (Arsenal, City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton) are pursuing the same strategy as us and where this season have they been as sterile as us?

 

[RunTMC]

BoL, GB, Scara, Jord, ,Milo - i admire your positions.

BoL everything you've said is completely correct from a theoretical point of view and even from a practical perspective (from an individual perspective).

From a personal perspective i used to compete at a semi-elite level in athletics. For a long time i could never understand why people i was tonking early in the season were beating me during the major comps at the end despite me feeling good, strong and confident.

Football is different because it's a team sport an there is simply no way to manage the multitude of factors involved.

I'm with KD in that there is simply no way of commumicating that kind of strategy to a bunch of footballers. They will simply not get it. And even if they did get it from a theoretical PoV, the ebb and flow of an individual game will throw all that out of the window.

American sports science is WAY ahead of us. Baseball, Basketball and American Football adopt a level of sports science that is beyond our comprehension. Although the difference is that thier sports are usually based on 'plays' and are very much stop/start in nature.

I aslo agree with the OP in that terms of full season intensity. I have yet to see a team start strong and end strong and maintain that strength throughout the entire season.

I'm probably in the minority in that i actually enjoy our possession based approach. Ive been scarred by the 90's and early 2000's where we counldn't control a ball and couldn't string 2 passes togerther.

However in terms of the OP, i think you are correct and that is probably AVB's intention/goal. But unfortunately there is not a chance in hell that this will work with our current team. Firstly becaue we are not elite and secondly becasue the players will simply not 'get it'. From a team perspective there are simply way too many invariables to account for.

 

[Craig_J]

I personally do not think Gomes EVER got the credit he deserved for helping get us into the CL that season. He was ****ing phenomenal. How he was turned from that calibre of keeper into a shattered reserve is one of the many things which got my question-meter going…seriously, remember 'that' save from RVP? Unbelievable.

I agree Gomes pulled of many great saves that season.

Also, I remember being at the Arsenal game when we won 2-1. Bentdne scored about 10 mins before the end of the game. I was sat in the south stand and the ground had gone silent. Gomes tuned around clapped at the fans and waved his arms upwads whilst mumbling something as if to say "Come on sing up again we're in this together!" The whole south stand started singing again till the end of the game!! Great moment. Always felt Gomes is the sort of player you get a lot of loyalty and comitment from.

 

[Stenno]

Gomes' celebrations after we scored were always outstanding.. I remember the game against chelscum where he made a number of blinding saves, one in particular point blank from a John Terry header..

On his day he was unbelievable. Shame that the errors crept in and his confidence died.. Once he started feigning injury and making silly mistakes, he had to be dropped

 

[Gutter Boy]

This book must be bloody special the way some go on about it. It's like their bible.

Hagiography

 

[scaramanga]

No, it's mainly because at all levels of the game, we put too much emphasis on physical attributes instead of skill, technique and flair. And because we just don't have any/enough naturally gifted footballers, there's only a certain amount coaching can achieve.

I'm sorry but you can overanalyse things. Correct me If I'm wrong but don't you always say footballers are thick? Why overcomplicate things for them?

Of course preparation is vital, before we played West Ham, AVB said 'we will prepare for West Ham on the day of the game" and this is a man who is supposed to be famed for his preparation and analysis? :ross:

You can use as many stats as you like, if the results aren't good enough then what the hell good is it?

And that's where part of the genius of management is.

I struggle at explaining complex points in a simple way (evidenced by the number of times I end up repeating the same point over and over on this forum). I have huge admiration for those who can.

 

[Kingdawson]

And that's where part of the genius of management is.

I struggle at explaining complex points in a simple way (evidenced by the number of times I end up repeating the same point over and over on this forum). I have huge admiration for those who can.

but what proof is there that AVB can?

 

[Kingdawson]

In reality the evidence right now points to him not being able to convey the message he wants.

 

[scaramanga]

but what proof is there that AVB can?

Absolute proof? I'm not sure you can claim that of anything.

What I can say is that AVB at least understands (or does a very good impression of one who does) the concepts I think he needs to explain.

Maybe it's not AVB who does the explaining - in our setup it might be Freund or even someone else.

 

[Kingdawson]

Absolute proof? I'm not sure you can claim that of anything.

What I can say is that AVB at least understands (or does a very good impression of one who does) the concepts I think he needs to explain.

Maybe it's not AVB who does the explaining - in our setup it might be Freund or even someone else.

but how...how do you get this impression i mean? what makes you think 'yep they really get what AVB is instructing them' when you watch us play?

 

[scaramanga]

but how...how do you get this impression i mean? what makes you think 'yep they really get what AVB is instructing them' when you watch us play?

Not only do I not know how that would look, I wouldn't know how one would even begin to claim they could.

 

[Gutter Boy]

but how...how do you get this impression i mean? what makes you think 'yep they really get what AVB is instructing them' when you watch us play?

Because he's managed it successfully with the first two parts of his plan:

- Getting players (even Dawson) playing the high line with a sweeper keeper
- Possession football (and the high-tempo pressing that involves) - we almost always have 60-70% of possession in matches now

All that is missing is the third part - quick transition between midfield and attack. Once we do that and stop allowing teams to get their defence set, we are going to be unstopable.

 

[Kingdawson]

Because he's managed it successfully with the first two parts of his plan:

- Getting players (even Dawson) playing the high line with a sweeper keeper
- Possession football (and the high-tempo pressing that involves) - we almost always have 60-70% of possession in matches now

All that is missing is the third part - quick transition between midfield and attack. Once we do that and stop allowing teams to get their defence set, we are going to be unstopable.

Do you know how easy it is to win the possession count? i mean any team in the league could suddenly become a possession based team if all they're doing is triangle passes from goalie to defenders or if the midfield pass it back and forth to each other. That's absolutely nothing to brag about if your striker is being fed 1 clear cut chance in 10 games.

How can you say it's successful? just because he's implemented a system that sees us win the possession count it doesn't become successful until we win the possession count AND create lots of chances whilst having the possession. It seems that since the beginning of last season you have suddenly become easy to please which wasn't the case before (not surprisingly).

 

[Daisuk]

From a season perspective, do you think it is possible to go full pelt in every game and be consistent from August through to May? Or do you think there will be dips? Do you think it is better to manage when those dips are likely to occur?

From an in game perspective, I don't mean trying any less, or concentrating any less. It's more about the type of football played. In smaller games we will often rest with the ball, meaning we aren't over extending ourselves but at the same time the opposition isn't threatening us. From an entertainment perspective it is pretty dull, but ultimately last season showed if you win the games most people will be happy at the end of the day. I was certainly happier than the collapse the season before when simply nothing went right for us and we couldn't buy a win. I don't think a smaller team or one that doesn't try to play football in control - Stoke say - can do what I am referring to.

In the bigger games we played some really nice stuff last year. Against Arsenal away we were looking dominant until the red card, and at home we were picking them apart quite often playing rapid football but poor finishing from Sig for example let us down.

So it's not about trying any less, just managing our extension of energy by controlling the ball, to ramp up the pressure in games and over the season when required.

You're asking a very rhetorical question, so I'll refrain from answering the first one.

I just don't see the logic behind "resting" in a game keeping possession without having scored a goal or two first. It just doesn't make sense. Fans will become frustrated, players will likely become frustrated as a result of that (as we've seen evidence of from our performances this season), and you end up with a pretty negative feedback loop. It's also too much of a gamble to start a game with the a strategy aiming to rest the players for say 60 minutes before pushing on for a goal from there on in, for a lot of reasons;

- You might not get a goal, and find you have wasted a lot of the game resting thinking getting that goal would be easier than it turns out to be (this is so painstakingly obvious I shouldn't have to mention it, really)
- You might have to use far more physical and mental energy from the pressure point on towards, hopefully, getting that goal, than you would have if you had set out to get an early goal, or to play a consistent game of 'play smart football but give it all you got'
- If you concede a goal - what happens with the plan then?

We've also seen several attempts by us (especially early last season) to slow down the pace of the game, play dull possession football, after having taken the lead, but instead of defending that lead, conceding late goals to draw or even lose. Wouldn't it make more sense to capitalize on the psychological momentum of having scored a goal to try to get another goal? It sure makes sense to me.

I think conserving energy over a season is better achieved by having a big squad of players and rotate them so as to not play too many games a season, yet somehow, we tend to go out all guns blazing against European minnows when we most likely would've gotten a decent result fielding a far weaker side, resulting, as we have seen time and again this season, in a poor result in the following league game, possibly due to fatigue caused by the previous game.

I'm definitely getting a copy of the book, to try to understand the logic behind this, as I really can't fathom it at all at the moment.

 

[spasm]

Because he's managed it successfully with the first two parts of his plan:

- Getting players (even Dawson) playing the high line with a sweeper keeper
- Possession football (and the high-tempo pressing that involves) - we almost always have 60-70% of possession in matches now

All that is missing is the third part - quick transition between midfield and attack. Once we do that and stop allowing teams to get their defence set, we are going to be unstopable.

tbh GB, therein lies the conundrum for me. we compress play in the opposition half & maintain 60-70% possession. we then play with inverted wingers that hold the ball and attempt to drive into a highly congested area whilst playing with a goalscoring machine (soldado) that wants the ball played early/quickly into the box as he scores 95% of his goals there...with those conditions in place, how can there be a quick transition with 10 opponents behind the ball in such a small space?

 

[Gutter Boy]

tbh GB, therein lies the conundrum for me. we compress play in the opposition half & maintain 60-70% possession. we then play with inverted wingers that hold the ball and attempt to drive into a highly congested area whilst playing with a goalscoring machine (soldado) that wants the ball played early/quickly into the box as he scores 95% of his goals there...with those conditions in place, how can there be a quick transition with 10 opponents behind the ball in such a small space?

I guess the same way that Barca do it. Clever movement that pulls opposition out of position and creates the spaces.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You're asking a very rhetorical question, so I'll refrain from answering the first one.

I just don't see the logic behind "resting" in a game keeping possession without having scored a goal or two first. It just doesn't make sense. Fans will become frustrated, players will likely become frustrated as a result of that (as we've seen evidence of from our performances this season), and you end up with a pretty negative feedback loop. It's also too much of a gamble to start a game with the a strategy aiming to rest the players for say 60 minutes before pushing on for a goal from there on in, for a lot of reasons;

- You might not get a goal, and find you have wasted a lot of the game resting thinking getting that goal would be easier than it turns out to be (this is so painstakingly obvious I shouldn't have to mention it, really)
- You might have to use far more physical and mental energy from the pressure point on towards, hopefully, getting that goal, than you would have if you had set out to get an early goal, or to play a consistent game of 'play smart football but give it all you got'
- If you concede a goal - what happens with the plan then?

We've also seen several attempts by us (especially early last season) to slow down the pace of the game, play dull possession football, after having taken the lead, but instead of defending that lead, conceding late goals to draw or even lose. Wouldn't it make more sense to capitalize on the psychological momentum of having scored a goal to try to get another goal? It sure makes sense to me.

I think conserving energy over a season is better achieved by having a big squad of players and rotate them so as to not play too many games a season, yet somehow, we tend to go out all guns blazing against European minnows when we most likely would've gotten a decent result fielding a far weaker side, resulting, as we have seen time and again this season, in a poor result in the following league game, possibly due to fatigue caused by the previous game.

I'm definitely getting a copy of the book, to try to understand the logic behind this, as I really can't fathom it at all at the moment.

First of all, thank you for engaging with the ideas at least rather than dismissing them out of hand.

I would say the logic is, simply that it's better to attack teams on our terms, when we have identified that they are at their weakest during a match, rather than only trying to rest when 2 goals up and attack them all out from minute one until that happens. If we rest while the opposition are at their most strongest and able to concentrate to their maximum, but play the game on our terms so they are chasing, we tire them out in order to hit them when they are most vulnerable. That benefits us not only in that game, but in the long stretch of a season when we have spent the majority of the time making other teams chase while conserving our own energies.

And since it is the plan, the squad knows this and won't get frustrated. The fans will do, and part of me thinks AVB should come out and explain his thinking just once, so that everyone is in on the plan. But then of course you have the risk of basically opening our preparation up to all opposition as well as the fact that some fans will still not see the logic behind it and still criticise it - so he can't really win even if he does. But the whole point of everything - the high line, the pressing, the slow tempo at many points in the game - is all so we can play the match and the season on our terms.

The fact that we might not get a goal is equally important in a strategy that requires all out intensity from the first whistle as well as one that waits for the moment to strike. Only in the former, if you don't get a goal you are much more susceptible to attacks because you've expanded a lot of intensity against an opposition that is still in their peak state for the game. Of course we may not get a goal with our strategy - West Ham showed that and everything can go wrong - but over a long season I think there is more benefit to playing matches on our terms than there is simply 'going for it' every time and not managing our condition. We do rotate heavily for the Europa League and also lower our intensity - we definitely don't go all guns blazing. Same for the Carling Cup. I can see why people think playing some first teamers in the Europa is not managing their condition but I think there is a difference between the recovery period between Thursday and Sunday - and AVB always says he gives players plenty of rest for recovery - and long term wear and tear and effect on our intensity over a season. The fact that we've played such a slow tempo and 'laboured' to these wins in Europe in the group stages I would say is completely by design. We are making them not much more than a training exercise so that when we do have to increase the intensity for tougher opponents, we have enough left in the tank to do so.

It's also worth noting that each member of the squad's condition will be meticulously managed. For example Sandro knows he's on about 90% of his ideal condition right now, and so rotation and games the players are given is all tied in to benefit us here, and strike the balance between improving condition by keeping things ticking over and not doing too much.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Do you know how easy it is to win the possession count? i mean any team in the league could suddenly become a possession based team if all they're doing is triangle passes from goalie to defenders or if the midfield pass it back and forth to each other. That's absolutely nothing to brag about if your striker is being fed 1 clear cut chance in 10 games.

How can you say it's successful? just because he's implemented a system that sees us win the possession count it doesn't become successful until we win the possession count AND create lots of chances whilst having the possession. It seems that since the beginning of last season you have suddenly become easy to please which wasn't the case before (not surprisingly).

I don't think any team in the league could be a possession team. You need players with the confidence and ability to carry it off under pressure and some clubs just won't have the personnel to do it. It's why we like at our club the likes of Chiriches and JV and why more clogger type defenders would struggle. Then again if teams don't pressure us then we probably could protect a less composed defender within our team. A smaller team though would be pressured and they would need the composure and skill to carry the plan off in the face of that.

But I do think we are implementing AVB's ideas. At Chelsea I just don't think they got it. I mean they were 3-0 up vs United and drew 3-3, the 5-3 loss at home to Arsenal and seeing their high line exposed numerous times. I just don't think they understood how to carry it off as well as our players do, or didn't buy into it as much because it differed from Mourinho's 'intensity at all times' approach. I think this year though Mourinho has bought in to more of a resting strategy too - some of their games they have completely rested once they've got the job done e.g. their match against Hull at home - and maybe their squad are still adjusting to that mentality again because results such as West Brom and Basel show they aren't quite clicking themselves yet.