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Panorama, 13th feb - crumbling USA

elltrev said:
I think a lot of the divide in these kinds of debates stems from differences in opinion as to the importance of structure and agency (sorry to use those waffley academic terms, but I couldn't think how else to put it in two words). I seem to remember that you grew up on a council estate but are now pretty successful in terms of money, so it's natural I think that you place more emphasis on the idea that individuals have the freedom to achieve what they want through hard work, and have less sympathy for the idea that a lot of people have social obstacles that stop them from achieving certain things. But personally I do think that most people are the product of the environment that they grow up in, and as a society we have to change a lot of our bad environments / communities for the better if we want to see improvements in the people who live in them. And I'm not just talking about education, I'm talking about a change in the culture too.

The trouble with immigration is that it creates 'unequal' competition in my view; it pits the 'lowest' in our own country against some of the 'highest' - the most motivated and capable people - of most other countries in the world... it's inevitable that millions of British people are going to lose that competition, and so are going to be left chronically unemployed. And obviously unemployment itself becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy / vicious circle.

As far as Panorama goes, just shows what a weird country USA can be... the 'American Dream' and the idea of agency is so entrenched within their culture... I'm always most shocked by the view that healthcare is something that should be paid for by individuals, and tough titties if you can't afford it.
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The American Dream is a myth now, unbeknownst to most citizens, but I think many immigrants, or prospective immigrants, have realized the downward trend. But to many conservatives, the notion that America might not be number one anymore is a heretical thought. I've noticed that many Americans have an infallible attitude in life, that of course extends to politics. These people think they never owe anyone an apology because they can't do any wrong.

And in rural America, the story is completely different. Painkillers and methamphetamine are regularly abused by parents, which allows the cycle to continue. Nicolas Kristof has a good article on the new white 'underclass'.
 
Leeds Spur said:
Nope.

A 3rd of the population of London are immigrants, and Tottenham is a few miles away with the best transport system in the world, from millions of jobs.
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You are guilty of reading raw facts without context. The South Bronx is a couple of miles at away from Central Park West. 'Millions of jobs' in London. If you know of them, and feel sure of being able to place all the 'lazy poor' from Tottenham, etc, in said-vacancies, you could be onto a LeedsSpur business venture. I'd do it. Serve two masters!
 
I'm just saying these people aren't unemployed due to lack of opportunity.

They re unemployable due to being thick clams, a product of brick parents and schools, and just being stupid.

It was argued that the underclass were a product of capitalism.....that's gonads IMO.
 
Leeds Spur said:
I'm just saying these people aren't unemployed due to lack of opportunity.

They re unemployable due to being thick clams, a product of brick parents and schools, and just being stupid.

It was argued that the underclass were a product of capitalism.....that's gonads IMO.
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My personal opinion is that... guess what, it could be a combination of both.
With the advent of new technologies and economies in the past three or so decades, there has been a shift in workforce from manual labor to more technical labor, where higher levels of education have become necessary. In America, a college degree doesn't mean much as it used to.

A new book by Charles Murray has been a talking point recently about the eroding social fabric of America. In fact, I've started seeing TV commercials in the past few weeks about values (see values.org). Like anti-drug commercials, do the proprietors of these ads actually think they can change behavior with a 15 second clip? Here's another NYT article on the book, and what they think the author gets right and wrong.
 
Just posting it up.

My wife is out of work at the moment as it happens, she has a degree and several years teaching experience, yet can't even find any part time work. But it is not lack of opportunity, I'll tell her, because you say so... or should I tell her she is a dumb fudge with brick parents?
 
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Sorry - you're a trumper.

No work? She DOESN'T want the jobs out there. That's cool, but don't tell me there aren't any jobs, there are.

Maybe not jobs she feels are appropriate for her level of education and experience, but no jobs?

Nope - gonads.
 
I'm not a trumper, she is applying and hasn't even been shortlisted, schools now are looking primarily at NQT's due to budget cuts. She worked in one of the most prestigous schools in the country until last year, yet her skillset is undermined by economics.

She has had a couple of part time jobs but that work dried up, she is applying for nannying work, teaching assistant work also, she would happily work in Tesco's or a.n.other shop, but employers don't believe she will stay due to her seeming over qualification for the posts.

She is also not signing on, as I am sure countless of thousands of others arent, we have savings so maybe aren't entitled (haven't a clue what the metrics are to be honest), but that just highlights another facet of the figures not being accurate.

Anyway, I'm not sulking about our lot, it just baffles my mind that you can maintain that those out of work are in that situation by their own choosing, or personality/intelligence.
 
I'm not saying that at all.

READ THE fudgeIG POSTS!!!

I'm saying THE UNDERCLASS, THE LONG TERM UNEMPLOYED, THOSE ON WELFARE FOR YEARS, THEY CHOOSE NOT TO WORK.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
 
Gifter said:
I'm not a trumper, she is applying and hasn't even been shortlisted, schools now are looking primarily at NQT's due to budget cuts. She worked in one of the most prestigous schools in the country until last year, yet her skillset is undermined by economics.

She has had a couple of part time jobs but that work dried up, she is applying for nannying work, teaching assistant work also, she would happily work in Tesco's or a.n.other shop, but employers don't believe she will stay due to her seeming over qualification for the posts.

She is also not signing on, as I am sure countless of thousands of others arent, we have savings so maybe aren't entitled (haven't a clue what the metrics are to be honest), but that just highlights another facet of the figures not being accurate.

Anyway, I'm not sulking about our lot, it just baffles my mind that you can maintain that those out of work are in that situation by their own choosing, or personality/intelligence.
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Everyone gets UB, regardless of savings.
 
And to dd, you seem to want to attribute the UK's unemployment to austerity, when in fact the USA, Spain, France and many other countries who aren't cutting their debt at the same rate we are or at all, have a higher rate of unemployment.

Newsflash - The western world is fudged.
 
Yes I understand, but, you are failing to understand that I am saying, if my wife with a degree and years of experience cannot find work, even menial, then how can it be that lesser/unqualified folk are choosing to do so, in a sweeping generalisation kind of way, as we are doing.

If she then looses confidence in her ability to be productive and of worth, and becomes one of the underclass, it is not of her choosing, but the environment she has had hoisted upon her. Which deserves empathy IMO.
 
So you don't believe there are 900,000 vacancies in the UK economy at this moment in time?

Good luck to your wife.

She is the type of person who struggles.........employers think she'll leave at the first opportunity, which is probbly right.

People will less education do have better prospects than her at this moment in time.
 
Leeds Spur said:
And to dd, you seem to want to attribute the UK's unemployment to austerity, when in fact the USA, Spain, France and many other countries who aren't cutting their debt at the same rate we are or at all, have a higher rate of unemployment.

Newsflash - The western world is fudged.
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I'm not suggesting any such thing. I'm more in the camp of capitalism is fudged full stop, in it's current form of Usury. It is a confidence trick based on indefinate economic growth IMO, which at best will continue for another few centuries, whilst it devours the rest of the worlds natural resources to keep the superwealthy in their status quo, whilst folks like us rise and fall within the modern form of serfdom.

I'd honestly give up everything I have for a try at a better way.

We don't need the benefits, thanks, but if things continue this way for long we might!
 
Gifter said:
Yes I understand, but, you are failing to understand that I am saying, if my wife with a degree and years of experience cannot find work, even menial, then how can it be that lesser/unqualified folk are choosing to do so, in a sweeping generalisation kind of way, as we are doing.

If she then looses confidence in her ability to be productive and of worth, and becomes one of the underclass, it is not of her choosing, but the environment she has had hoisted upon her. Which deserves empathy IMO.
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The problem and it is very un pc of me to say it, there are to many people in the country. The recent influx of foreign labour has hurt the prospects of the british worker. The was a time a few years ago when if we had a recession then guys i knew on the building sites would go and work in a garage or a supermarket or something like that until things picked up again.

People can not do that now because we have an extra million people in the country compared with 15 years ago. But it is the left that wanted uncontrolled immgration combined with employers who got to keep wages low. So there it is, im not really bothered myself because this country always has and always will be about self interest and not giving a fudge about anyone but yourself.

I wish you and your wife good luck for the future but as a british man, i don't give a fudge just like the left did not give a fudge when they allowed uncontrolled immgration to happen and the right wing business owners did not care because they got to keep wages low and make bigger profits. Im sure some wise arse will come out and say that im just blaming foreingers because im racist. Which is not true i married an irish lady and am best mates with a latvian. But the people of the country have been let down by the politicans and some business owners.
 
I know......many are like you and I would be the same.

Growth isn't based on the comsumption of raw materials. Technology is the main driver of the global economy.......that is what is causing more unemployment, automation will continue to expand.

In 1950-60 we had full employment, then with better techniques, technology and management methods less human capital is needed.

That and the tripling of the global population and the emergence of the BRIC's and other developing countries.

So......are we to return to biblical ways?

There are no unemployed in developing countries, they might earn fudge all but they all work.

Now jobs paying ?ú25k with full benefits and a welfare state, and education, and healthcare and defence and cuture etc etc etc.......that costs money.

Us in the west are the ones who need to adjust our expectations.

Progress is what has fudged the west, not capitalism.
 
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