Panorama, 13th feb - crumbling USA

[Leeds Spur]

fair play then. just got my toes stepped on a bit. I dont consider myself well versed in current political affairs so Im not even gonna try with that one.. this'll be my second election I'm able to vote in for the POTUS, and I'll be voting based upon the candidate not the party.

On: "Do you think that citizens have the right to tell other citizens whether they can get an abortion or not? Or whether homosexuals can get married?" - This is a tricky one, and its quite easy to step on a few toes if one goes about it the wrong way (or even the right way for that matter... no one likes being told they're doing something wrong).

As a Christian, I know what the Bible tells us about both abortion and gay marriage. I see nothing wrong with warning someone of the sin they are treading in. However it is extremely hard to do this. We must warn others out of love for them, not out of hate (oftentimes you'll see this in street side preachers (most of which make me sick to my stomach) that point fingers and yell at any walker-by). This hatred is misplaced. We are to hate the sin, not the sinner. To love one another so much that we are willing to occasionally point out that a brother or sister is in sin (though inevitably some form of "the bible says not to judge" comes back at us) because we long for them to walk in the light (1 John 1:7).

Abortion and Gay Marriage are in the same likeness as lust, greed, and covetousness, but happen to be much easier to see than the latter 3. No one likes being told they are doing something wrong (myself included) but if I am rebuked about any of these, I could only thank GHod that I was shown where I was wrong so I may ask forgiveness.

Interesting that you brought up birth control because it seems there is more grey area in this topic than with most. I have many Christian friends recently married that are using it to ensure they don't have a baby. I honestly see no problem with this because GHod gave us a knowledge and ability to create this just like advil or tylenol. On the other side of the coin (typically i find this in Catholic beliefs) is that birth control is "playing the role of GHod" or just the same as abortion. To this, I can't say i agree. But i can see this side of the argument.

Fully respect your views, but the chat above comes across as completely MENTAL in the seculat UK.

Inform people of their sins because you love them? MEGA LOLZ!!!!

 

[Leeds Spur]

To add the caholic position is complete gonads.

If you intervene in the birth you are playing GHod, but since GHod 'invented' abortion and the pill surely he is telling us it's OK??

Or doesn't GHod do anything bad? I assume all of these bad things are the actions of the devil??

 

[papaspur]

Source?

And people can be unemployed with jobs available!

There are 700,000 vacancies in the Uk at the moment for instance.

So no, back to your idealistic BS.

The US has a similar situation of job vacancies, but no one qualified enough to fill them. By chance, do you know of which fields those vacancies are in?

 

[yiddo2786]

To add the caholic position is complete gonads.

If you intervene in the birth you are playing GHod, but since GHod 'invented' abortion and the pill surely he is telling us it's OK??

Or doesn't GHod do anything bad? I assume all of these bad things are the actions of the devil??

You've got to wonder how an all-powerful being allowed the Devil to get away with so much brick.

 

[papaspur]

To add the caholic position is complete gonads.

If you intervene in the birth you are playing GHod, but since GHod 'invented' abortion and the pill surely he is telling us it's OK??

Or doesn't GHod do anything bad? I assume all of these bad things are the actions of the devil??

Better yet, have that child beyond your means, even if that means he or she will suffer through childhood. Be fruitful and multiply? Yeah, if you can support them. So many kids are born out of wedlock anyway... we as a society have an obligation to support those poor bastards: that includes feeding them, educating them, and providing health care. All because people didn't want to use condoms, or were encouraged not to? The human price is far too large too pay, and society must take on this burden. GHod isn't going to drop loaves of bread and fish at the feet of the needy, or to provide the funding to do it.

 

[Gifter]

So at its lowest unemployment was 1.48 million, and we let in 2 million eastern europeans.

I rest my case.

The 1% in Japan were unemployable due to drug abuse etc, full employment is the natural equilibrium of capitalism.......the long term unemployed in this country are so becuase they WANT TO BE, nothing more nothing less.

I can be aggressive and righ, you started the downward tone of our discourse, I responded.

That nice graph shows that unemployment came down under the Tories, then stagnated under Labour once the welfare state increased, i.e.the incentive to work was removed.

Classic welfare dependency!

You may rest your case, however that is not factoring in that amongst those 2 Million economic migrants there were obviously ALOT of job creating entrepeneurs, you cannot claim as fact (well you have acutually) that because we had 1.48Million unemployed with 2 Million migrant workers we actually have zero unemployment (plus changes in economic conditions over the period the europeans arrived, I am right in assuming they did not all come on one day?!). That's like saying america has none because of all the mexicans...

So you are essentially saying that capitalism's natural equilibrium is full employment, yet there has rarely (if ever) been a time this has happened for any sustained period, something is amiss there wouldn't you say?

When there were labour shortfalls in the 60's we invited asians over to recreate a surplus of labour, stats only go back to the 70's though so it is hard to quantify well back then.

Japan's metric for measuring unemployed shows that they discount those unable/unwilling to work (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/unemployment-rate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Japan

The graph (on UK unemployment) shows that both sides use a reduction in capital availability to control the economy and keep a lid on inflation, which always leads to higher unemployment, if this were not the case, then full employment would allow inflation to balloon, in a service country like ours is now, how we would then sell our services abroad?

 

[Leeds Spur]

The average unemployment over the whole period was less than 2 million........

The link between unemployment and inflation is obviously linked to consumption! The more people employed the higher demand is for goods this pushes up the cost of goods and thus inflation goes up.

There will always be periods of unemployment in a capitalist system, but a lifetime on benefits??

Are you advocating that and suggesting it's an inevitable consequence of capitalism?

 

[VolSpur]

Fully respect your views, but the chat above comes across as completely MENTAL in the seculat UK.

Inform people of their sins because you love them? MEGA LOLZ!!!!

I can't say this in a manner sincerely enough, but if i were to put it bluntly,

Life without repentence = Hell.

This is what GHod's Word teaches us, but nonetheless, cue people being offended...

To add the caholic position is complete gonads.

If you intervene in the birth you are playing GHod, but since GHod 'invented' abortion and the pill surely he is telling us it's OK??

Or doesn't GHod do anything bad? I assume all of these bad things are the actions of the devil??

The bolded bit's just about correct. and GHod didn't "invent" abortion, it is simply man's misuse and perversion of what we have been given in knowledge, into something appalling and sinful.

You've got to wonder how an all-powerful being allowed the Devil to get away with so much brick.

He allowed any of it so that He can be Glorified.

Better yet, have that child beyond your means, even if that means he or she will suffer through childhood. Be fruitful and multiply? Yeah, if you can support them. So many kids are born out of wedlock anyway... we as a society have an obligation to support those poor bastards: that includes feeding them, educating them, and providing health care. All because people didn't want to use condoms, or were encouraged not to? The human price is far too large too pay, and society must take on this burden. GHod isn't going to drop loaves of bread and fish at the feet of the needy, or to provide the funding to do it.

I dont feel condoms are out of place either when used in the right context.. and people aren't encouraged not to use condoms.. they're encouraged not to have sex at all before marriage. One of my best friends is adopted under the same circumstances you offered above. He's now gone on to graduate college, get a sufficient job, and better yet, he knows the Glory of Christ. If he was aborted I would be without one of my best friends. Its not impossible.

 

[Gifter]

Source?

And people can be unemployed with jobs available!

There are 700,000 vacancies in the Uk at the moment for instance.

So no, back to your idealistic BS.

That is largely job churn though, unfortunately leeds you need to admit you were wrong in using Japan as a back up to your argument, in the way you did. It is well known they were the original tiger ecomony so they did experience exceptionally low unemployment for a long period, but it was still well above what you would assign to natural churn and specialist skill shortages, plus after this period, inflation soured and they then entered a prolonged period of slow growth as a means of combating the inflatory pressure, as their goods were also becoming to expensive for other nations to buy, once their economy grew and grew, others could then make the same far cheaper, even with inferior technical skills.

This is a part of why China is taking over everything, they have absolutely masses of labour to contain inflation and keep the price of their goods as cheap or cheaper than anyones.

 

[Leeds Spur]

The US has a similar situation of job vacancies, but no one qualified enough to fill them. By chance, do you know of which fields those vacancies are in?

http://www.simplyhired.co.uk/

Actually - there are nearly 900,000 jobs.......

 

[Leeds Spur]

That is largely job churn though, unfortunately leeds you need to admit you were wrong in using Japan as a back up to your argument, in the way you did. It is well known they were the original tiger ecomony so they did experience exceptionally low unemployment for a long period, but it was still well above what you would assign to natural churn and specialist skill shortages, plus after this period, inflation soured and they then entered a prolonged period of slow growth as a means of combating the inflatory pressure, as their goods were also becoming to expensive for other nations to buy, once their economy grew and grew, others could then make the same far cheaper, even with inferior technical skills.

This is a part of why China is taking over everything, they have absolutely masses of labour to contain inflation and keep the price of their goods as cheap or cheaper than anyones.

The level considered full employment is around 3%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment

So Japan and the UK did actually have full employment for years.

 

[Leeds Spur]

I can't say this in a manner sincerely enough, but if i were to put it bluntly,

Life without repentence = Hell.

This is what GHod's Word teaches us, but nonetheless, cue people being offended...



The bolded bit's just about correct. and GHod didn't "invent" abortion, it is simply man's misuse and perversion of what we have been given in knowledge, into something appalling and sinful.



He allowed any of it so that He can be Glorified.



I dont feel condoms are out of place either when used in the right context.. and people aren't encouraged not to use condoms.. they're encouraged not to have sex at all before marriage. One of my best friends is adopted under the same circumstances you offered above. He's now gone on to graduate college, get a sufficient job, and better yet, he knows the Glory of Christ. If he was aborted I would be without one of my best friends. Its not impossible.

Blimey - again, no offence, but I REALLY wouldn't want to sit next to you at a function!!

Are you one of those people who keeps his faith to himself? Or is it your GHod driven duty to inform others of their sins, and help them see the light?

 

[Gifter]

The level considered full employment is around 3%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment

So Japan and the UK did actually have full employment for years.

This is essentially what I was asserting to begin with though (that 3% is considered full employment - is double speak for a certain percentage of unemployment is endemic to capitalist society), which you pilloried, yet now you are using the same metrics to prove that 3% is none!

Even those from the underclass know enough about maths to see a flaw in your logic!

Well in that case, if you were one of the 3 in 100 who were out of work, and you saw stories and claims of ''everything is rosey, we have full employment, check out my wad...'' can you not then see how those people may become disaffected by society and form an underclass? I sure can.

 

[Gifter]

Interestingly Jesus and Moses were proper narked with the Usurers;

"And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise" (John 2:13-16).

"If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury "(Exodus 22:25).

Surely this shows that any member of parliament here, or in the USA, is not really religious at all, but chooses to use religion to their own ends, otherwise they would stand against the pimp daddies of usury = the fed and the bank of england, after all where do most of the Taxes go? might it actually be to pay back interest on money printed out of the air? How can we allow this? it used to promise the bearer so much in silver (here in the UK), but there is no reserves now of note, so it is made from paper and a press...

Much like with wars, I see folks using bastardised forms of religion for ?ú/$ yet most people choose to attack the religion (religion is the cause of all wars..), instead of seeing who is really benefiting from the actions and whether they fit in with said religions real scriptures.

I'm not religious, but have every sympathy for those who are and have their beliefs distorted in these ways, I have a faith of my own though.

 

[monkeybarry]

Didn't see it. Care to wrap it up in a paragraph? Is Mt.Rushmore falling to pieces or do they mean the moral fabric?

i think Gifter and Leeds just covered most of it;

an overview of the conditions the millions of unemployed are living in and effect of the US's blindness to any form of socialism (from all the americans i know it comes from socialism = communism = russia = anti-american) is having on certain areas of the country.

it would recommend taking 30mins out to watch it (its a difficult watch), made me furious - not just what has happened (that can happen anywhere with a mixture of bad luck and bad management), but the arrogant, "only look after myself" attitude, often portrayed in the guise of "a solution"

the level of disrepair in Detroit (not exactly a backwater) is unbelievalbe

the general attitude seems to be, its ok we'll just get business to create jobs and everything will be ok. (stick fingers in ears - la la la, it'll be ok)
they seem to fail to realise that the above is great when their is economic growth and entrepeneurs a plenty, but at the moment there isn't, and there is no money flowing down to kick start it.
its like the gears in a clock seizing up and instead of repairing and oiling the cogs so they can start to work again, they just throw them on the scrap pile and let them erode (and these are PEOPLE we are talking about here!), but stil expect them to "sort themselves out"

its a self perpetuating cycle - 50m Americans (appx 18% of the population!!) have NO HEALTH CARE.
Now, even if you take the non socialist attitude of, "they should get a job and pay for it", how exactly do these people expect that 18% can become part of a progresive workforce?
Person get ill - doesnt have health care - cant see a Dr - problem gets worse - other problems occur as a result - person become too ill to work..............how on earth that can even be a thought process in a "civilised" coutnry is beyond me.

If you changed the skin colour of everyone in that film to black and said it shot in Africa somewhere, no one would question it.

My wife is a yank, and she felt genuinely ashamed and embarrased. Its hard, 6 years ago we were going to move to CA - we didnt and had plans to move 5 years from now.....there is no way we can see it happening anymore as it seems that country is on a slippery slope. One that its arrogance will ultimately increase.

I can only see a public uprising if it carries on - GHod help them if they elect a Republican govt

 

[monkeybarry]

"especially republicans" - don't know how biased or slanted this statement is... But to say Republicans as a whole don't care for the extremely poor is terribly ignorant. Its like saying all pizza's are pepperoni or something.. just isn't true.

"Christians seem more bent on telling people what they can't do as opposed to helping the needy" - it is sad that there are many who take a single verse out of context and use it to tell others whats right and wrong but again this isn't always the true picture of how Christ has called us to live.

"Christians as a whole obviously don't practice what they preach." - Again with the grouping all Christians into a single stereotype... And to an extent I would actually agree with you. We are called to live as Christ, perfectly, but all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of GHod (Rom 3:23). This is why there's Grace. We fail, and beg forgiveness. Christianity is the only religion that doesn't base acceptance into heaven or some higher place on how good we are. We are simply asked to repent and believe (Mark 1:15). The good works will come as a fruit of our faith.

"I still can't believe that around 3/4 of the country is Christian" - I could only dream this were true. There's not a chance of this. Many claim such, but in no way live out their lives in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). I could claim I'm an NBA center averaging a triple-double every night but that's just not true now is it?

"Republican candidates have created a separate reality for themselves, but they've also projected their demons onto others outside their plastic-wrapped veneer." - lols at how slanted you are. was poetic though

i think the line about republicans rings true - certainly republicans that have political influence.
seems to be in line with the views of most republican voters i see in media (granted reporting bias) and in person (i talk politics with almost everyone, everytime i visit the states)

i think the figure re; no of cristians in the US was from a recent census (or such like) - maybe that doesnt include some people "that just tick that box", but those people are also the ones that are likely to side with a "cristian view". (if they are too scared or blind not to tick a "non cristian box" for fear its unconstitutional, then the sure as hell arnt going to disagree outloud or when voting)

 

[monkeybarry]

I'm not putting all the blame of our nation's problems on conservatives, but if you think that I am slanted just because I am slating what conservatism means in America in this day, then just read the news and see what Republicans are in favor for (small government, large defense budget), and more importantly, what they are against (birth control, social safety net programs, public education, science, facts).

you've just reminded be of something from the doc - it was a tv debate with politicians that essentially concluded that a certain politician would happily let someone die if they didnt have health insurance rather than have state help

it ok to kill someone by proxy.........but NO ABORTIONS

lost for words

 

[monkeybarry]

fair play then. just got my toes stepped on a bit. I dont consider myself well versed in current political affairs so Im not even gonna try with that one.. this'll be my second election I'm able to vote in for the POTUS, and I'll be voting based upon the candidate not the party.

On: "Do you think that citizens have the right to tell other citizens whether they can get an abortion or not? Or whether homosexuals can get married?" - This is a tricky one, and its quite easy to step on a few toes if one goes about it the wrong way (or even the right way for that matter... no one likes being told they're doing something wrong). As a Christian, I know what the Bible tells us about both abortion and gay marriage. I see nothing wrong with warning someone of the sin they are treading in. However it is extremely hard to do this. We must warn others out of love for them, not out of hate (oftentimes you'll see this in street side preachers (most of which make me sick to my stomach) that point fingers and yell at any walker-by). This hatred is misplaced. We are to hate the sin, not the sinner. To love one another so much that we are willing to occasionally point out that a brother or sister is in sin (though inevitably some form of "the bible says not to judge" comes back at us) because we long for them to walk in the light (1 John 1:7).

Abortion and Gay Marriage are in the same likeness as lust, greed, and covetousness, but happen to be much easier to see than the latter 3. No one likes being told they are doing something wrong (myself included) but if I am rebuked about any of these, I could only thank GHod that I was shown where I was wrong so I may ask forgiveness.

Interesting that you brought up birth control because it seems there is more grey area in this topic than with most. I have many Christian friends recently married that are using it to ensure they don't have a baby. I honestly see no problem with this because GHod gave us a knowledge and ability to create this just like advil or tylenol. On the other side of the coin (typically i find this in Catholic beliefs) is that birth control is "playing the role of GHod" or just the same as abortion. To this, I can't say i agree. But i can see this side of the argument.

the bible also states it is acceptable (nee, expected), for a father to sleep with their daughter to procreate - dont see that on many peoples election campaigning though

do you not think society has moved on a bit?
and that people should be able to live their lives how they want as long as they do not intentionally hurt someone?

 

[Leeds Spur]

This is essentially what I was asserting to begin with though (that 3% is considered full employment - is double speak for a certain percentage of unemployment is endemic to capitalist society), which you pilloried, yet now you are using the same metrics to prove that 3% is none!

Even those from the underclass know enough about maths to see a flaw in your logic!

Well in that case, if you were one of the 3 in 100 who were out of work, and you saw stories and claims of ''everything is rosey, we have full employment, check out my wad...'' can you not then see how those people may become disaffected by society and form an underclass? I sure can.

No I don't see that at all.

And you said that 8% unemployment was acceptable in my eyes, it isn't and it isn't an inevitable consequence of capitalism.

The 3% figure accounts for those in between jobs and who are transient.

The underclass are not disacffected youth, next you'll be saying the riots were a consequence of envy of overt capitalism?

Tottenham is part of one of the richest cities in the world, a third of the population are immigrants! There are millions of jobs filled by economic migrants when the youth and 'underclass' in Tottenham and other poor areas could very easily get a job.

 

[monkeybarry]

To add the caholic position is complete gonads.

If you intervene in the birth you are playing GHod, but since GHod 'invented' abortion and the pill surely he is telling us it's OK??

Or doesn't GHod do anything bad? I assume all of these bad things are the actions of the devil??

no no, you forget - GHod DOES do bad things........they are a test.
(something to do with his mysterious ways)