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OMT - Tottenham vs. West Ham

Perhaps this happening before the international break will focus minds and lead to us coming back with a bang against Villa (which wont be easy; see their record against last year's top 6 so far...)
 
Also, it seems Eriksen was almost anonymous from reports here and elsewhere. Why was this? Was it because of any tactical measure that Big Sam employed?
 
Jumpers said:
They didn't park the bus. Parking the bus is settling for a 1-0 win. Even in the first half they got men forward. We made it seem like they parked the bus because we were soooooo slow getting the ball forward.
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There was no bus parking today. They took the game to us.

Why do the children cry when you tell them the facts?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Perhaps this happening before the international break will focus minds and lead to us coming back with a bang against Villa (which wont be easy; see their record against last year's top 6 so far...)
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United lost their last game at home and won away yesterday.

Bad result today but hopefully AVB will get down off his high horse and realise that midfielders do not score as many goals as strikers. Going into game after game with just one striker on the bench will not butter the parsnips.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Also, it seems Eriksen was almost anonymous from reports here and elsewhere. Why was this? Was it because of any tactical measure that Big Sam employed?
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AVB got it massively wrong today.

But if Defoe scores in the 1st minute 2nd half..who knows?

They were just better than us today. If we played the same XI against them tomorrow we maybe could win 4-0.
 
onlyme said:
AVB got it massively wrong today.

But if Defoe scores in the 1st minute 2nd half..who knows?

They were just better than us today. If we played the same XI against them tomorrow we maybe could win 4-0.
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Why do you say that; in what way did he get is 'massively wrong'? Do you mean in terms of starting line-up?
What do you think he should have done instead (whether starting line-ups or whatever)?

Also, what about Eriksen, what did AVB do to make him so ineffective?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Why do you say that; in what way did he get is 'massively wrong'? Do you mean in terms of starting line-up?
What do you think he should have done instead (whether starting line-ups or whatever)?

Also, what about Eriksen, what did AVB do to make him so ineffective?
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First, he only had one striker on the bench.
Second he should have realised Dembele was ineffective today. Why is he such a coward? Why won't he shoot?
Eriksen actually provided us with 2 really good opps. Townsend was in great positions to shoot but passed.
 
Honest tactical question.

If all goes to plan, how exactly is AVB's system suppose to play out?

Also, with the players he has on the bench, is he able to i) implement a Plan B, ii) counter tactical changes made by the opposition and/or iii) simply replace off form personnel with similar type players?

Answers in thesis format please. Thanks.
 
spasm said:
Honest tactical question.

If all goes to plan, how exactly is AVB's system suppose to play out?

Also, with the players he has on the bench, is he able to i) implement a Plan B, ii) counter tactical changes made by the opposition and/or iii) simply replace off form personnel with similar type players?

Answers in thesis format please. Thanks.
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Feck that at 1 in the morning and drunk.

Systems is great.

Goalscorers are greaterer.
 
spasm said:
Honest tactical question.

If all goes to plan, how exactly is AVB's system suppose to play out?

Also, with the players he has on the bench, is he able to i) implement a Plan B, ii) counter tactical changes made by the opposition and/or iii) simply replace off form personnel with similar type players?

Answers in thesis format please. Thanks.
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Any chance you could post that set of questions here: http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/showth...e-heading-for-another-Chelski-style-car-crash
 
BrainOfLevy said:
A lot here is the kind of massive generalisations and assumptions that I thought you were better than man! AVB team loses to Allardyce team, so what does that say about AVB vs Allardyce? Bugger all! We took 6 points off of them last year. We comprehensively outplayed them at the Lane even when they had Carroll playing and fully deserved the win at Upton Park. What does that say about AVB vs Sam? Again bugger all! It doesn't prove that 'An AVB team will keep fighting to the bitter end' any more than it proves Allardyce can motivate a team better than AVB today.

I have definitely seen a team park the bus like today before, and in no way is it a tactical masterclass. It is the mark of a midtable team going to a top 4 contender and hoping to suck the pressure up and hit on the break. West Ham can't believe how lucky they were that we were so bad. This is like when someone said after Arsenal that 'Carzola coming in from the left' was a tactical innovation that bamboozled AVB. We see it every game! As against Norwich, as against any team that comes here to frustrate, they run the risk of letting our good footballers play near their goal. A lot of the team we won't be forced out wide to ping hopeless balls in, because we will play through even that frustrating wall of opposition. That we weren't able to today just suggests to me we were not bang on it. When you see the team start to lump balls in, you know they have no idea. But we come up against this sort of thing every week, and most of the time we are able to break it down. I don't think Sam was lucky, because any mid table team has to come to a team like ours and set up like that. If they were to 'have a go' at us, there's probably a 95% chance we destroy them. We are favourites for a reason. So most mid table teams come to top 4 contender stadiums and set up like they do, and on a few occasions over the season the 20% that they actually win the match happens. It can happen. We move on.

When I say Walker's injury lead to complacency, I don't really think it's something obvious that all AVB needs to say is '****ING COME ON LADS! LETS ****ING GET AT THEM! ITS A LONDON DERBY FOR **** SAKE!!' because obviously he has tried to motivate them. At half time he would have said some professional things, and he would have said some things to motivate the team. But what I'm saying is that if a player is injured, I think even subconsciously it impacts on the rest of the team. It felt the same against Fulham last season when I think a few of the team were carrying knocks and we looked a lot like today. Like we didn't have a clue. It's why you need a squad of people utterly determined in training every week. I can see why he doesn't want any Ade's not willing to fight, if that's what it looked like. Complacency creeps in. It's a mental thing. You don't know when it will happen but it can happen.

We were absolutely outfought. But I'm not going to go bat**** and start drawing ultimate conclusions about our manager or our players. We had a bad day. West Ham will have bad days. Arsenal had a bad day in the first game of the season and Man United lost at home last week. To say that 'AVB bought these players, he should be able to motivate them' implies that you think an acceptable and realistic level of performance from our manager is for the team to never have bad days at the office. As desirable as that is, I think every team bar a select few on the planet are prone to these kind of mishaps over the course of the season. We will have more days like this in our time with AVB, but so will the other teams. Let's not lose perspective though. We have done excellent business this summer and have an excellent squad, we have a good manager who by all accounts has the respect of the players and many peers within the game.

We are in good hands, but that does not preclude us from having shocks and **** days just like any team can.
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I don't think there are many generalisations in my statement at all, though if you could provide concrete examples (I suspect the questioning of our team's attitudes would be high up on that list) I would be more than willing to retract them and accept your view on the matter. As it stands, though, I've pointed out a number of areas where tactically Big Sam got it absolutely right, and also pointed out that even parking the bus can be done superbly well, and in a way that negates the opposition tactically without needing to rely on luck or the vagaries of chance to escape. Allardyce used a bank of six/seven with two/three roaming narrow, and forced us wide, which nullified us completely. The few chances we did get, we got because of our overload in the center (where it was often Paulinho, Eriksen, Townsend and Siggy versus just two or three of their lads), but our exploits from the flanks were useless today, and that gifted West Ham a lot of possession and initiative.

Let me repeat that, though: under AVB, I have never seen us play a side that put seven men in one defensive line. Never. I've seen us play against 5-man defenses, and I've seen us play against two banks of four multiple times. I have never seen us play against seven men in one line: that is unique, and bamboozled us today. This was not one of those '1 in 5' hit and hope attempts by a lower mid-table side. This was a deliberate strategy to pack as many men into as small an area as possible, with full knowledge that we lacked the personnel to deal with that (namely, wing-backs). Hats off to Allardyce, but equally (and this is the point you seem to be a bit hesitant to tackle), a pox on AVB's doormat for knowing his full-backs were inadequate, knowing one of them was injured and would only play at fifty per cent at most, and yet persisting with his wing back-heavy formation that absolutely relies on rampaging wing backs to give us a semblance of width and inside penetration. As a result, we were too narrow, we had no numerical advantage out wide (and ergo no chance to do anything other than play looping crosses to the far post all day) and we ultimately weren't that good defensively either because to make up the deficit caused by the absence of the wing-backs, our two CMs pushed into offensive areas leaving a big gap in front of our centre-backs that West Ham gleefully ran into.

Surely, surely you cannot deny that this sort of situation arises down to bad tactics and bad planning being beaten by good tactics and good planning. And that is what disappoints me.

And again, we were outfought in a London derby, against a side who had no business being anywhere near us technically, and after knowing Arsenal were 1-0 down at half-time when we went in for oranges or caviar or whatever these footballers consume in the break nowadays. I'm not denying it was a bad day, but what I am worried about is that if even here players' heads drop (even subconsciously) enough to allow for that kind of monstrously bad second half performance, in a London derby at home in front of your own fans and with the knowledge that you could go above your rivals if you could win....what does that say about our mental strength? Because, even allowing for it just being a 'mental thing' that can happen anytime, the fact that it happened in a match that the players were supposed to be pumped up for, and so early in the season, raises a few worrying questions as to what they'll play like come February or March, when it's cold and blustery and they're facing some troglodytes like Norwich or Palace with their legs aching from exhaustion and their minds already starting to wander towards their summer holidays and the World Cup. Surely there is a far greater risk of us collapsing then?

This might have been a **** day, a one-off. Or it might not have been. And ultimately judging AVB's tenure here this early is foolishness, and I mentioned as much somewhere else on this board earlier today. But what is counter-productive is to quickly move on from this horror show without analysing it and spotting any long-term problems lurking within the wreckage of that second-half performance. Because the only benefit of losing like this early in the season, namely the ability to correct and problems quickly and when the players still have enough energy to correct them as opposed to trying to figure out how to correct a long slide down on weary legs in March or April....that benefit will mean nothing if we just write it off as 'oh, a bad day, everyone has them'.

When you lose 3-0 to your rivals at home with less shots than them and with a performance as insipid as that (something I cannot see Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool doing this season, by the way), you must delve into it and find out why you lost, not brush it off and move on. That would be damaging to the season as a whole.
 
http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...ue-weekend-reviewed-oct-6#kfGBduYyk0AOJRDv.99

'1) Big Sam's tactical masterclass outfoxes AVB

'Spurs didn't seem to know how to deal with West Ham's pragmatic approach, appeared ill-prepared for the challenge placed before them, and lacked the patience required to break down a team that regularly put seven or eight players behind the ball.

They also suffered for being slightly lop-sided, with right-footers Kyle Naughton and Gylfi Sigurdsson both playing on the left, cutting inside and making the centre of the pitch more congested. This played right into West Ham's hands.'

'West Ham were as impressive as Spurs were awful and the scoreline didn't flatter them. The defeat will leave Andre Villas-Boas with plenty to ponder, not least how on earth a team that had previously conceded just twice in 11 matches could ship three goals in 90 minutes to a team without a recognised striker.'
 
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