*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Bournemouth ***

[Diamond Lights]

said it in January, said it constantly since then.

We do not have a terrible team, but the coaching has to be questioned. Sacking Conte to keep Stellini? Pointless and that's on Levy entirely.

But overall, we have players who are capable of more. Once again we scored, sat back.

Once again, we start with such a negative formation and tactical instruction at home. I didn't boo Sanchez and really did not like it at all. the change to take him OFF was the change we should have initially made, switching to a different formation.

But no, as always we stick with a formula that does not work. Asking players like Sanchez to be a RCB when he's NEVER shown the ability to be a RCB (i turned to the guy next to me and said "should put Dier on the Right instead" as soon as the change happened).

 

[Finney Is Back]

As for Tactics Tim. You can't hold that up for 2 reasons. 1, he's an imbecile. 2, Lloris is the only player from that starting 11 still with the club. World Cup winning captain Hugo Lloris. Most accept, and Sherwood's subsequent comments seem to indicate, that Vertonghen was one of the main targets of his comments. I think most would agree that Vertonghen was one of the best CBs we've had over the last 60 years.

Sherwood did a decent job in his little stint as manager. He improved the league position by 1 place compared to when he took over and also got some of the young players into the team. he was never going to be a long term appointment but I would happily have had him come in for the final 10 games of this season instead of Stellini.

Something that Sherwood also knows is what it takes to win a PL title. I think it is probably worth listening to the likes of Sherwood, Mourinho and Conte (three people who know what it is to win the PL title) if they all claim that our dressing room is lacking that drive and desire. I know that when Redknapp took over from Ramos at Spurs, the first thing he said needed to be addressed was how the dressing room was lacking in characters and in that January he knew he had to spend money on the right sort of characters.

Personally I think the lack of really wanting to win comes from the top and largely from the fact that the first (and only) thing that happens at Spurs is that the manager pays for it with his job when CL is missed/looks like it might be missed. However, despite that we still need a manager who will do all they can to get a whole group of players that will hold each other accountable for bad results, that may even include when 'reserve' players come in against lower league teams in the Cups. I'd love the senior players to berate the reserve players who don't get results in that game for costing the whole club the chance to compete across multiple trophies.

 

[Baleforce]

Sherwood did a decent job in his little stint as manager. He improved the league position by 1 place compared to when he took over and also got some of the young players into the team. he was never going to be a long term appointment but I would happily have had him come in for the final 10 games of this season instead of Stellini.

Something that Sherwood also knows is what it takes to win a PL title. I think it is probably worth listening to the likes of Sherwood, Mourinho and Conte (three people who know what it is to win the PL title) if they all claim that our dressing room is lacking that drive and desire. I know that when Redknapp took over from Ramos at Spurs, the first thing he said needed to be addressed was how the dressing room was lacking in characters and in that January he knew he had to spend money on the right sort of characters.

Personally I think the lack of really wanting to win comes from the top and largely from the fact that the first (and only) thing that happens at Spurs is that the manager pays for it with his job when CL is missed/looks like it might be missed. However, despite that we still need a manager who will do all they can to get a whole group of players that will hold each other accountable for bad results, that may even include when 'reserve' players come in against lower league teams in the Cups. I'd love the senior players to berate the reserve players who don't get results in that game for costing the whole club the chance to compete across multiple trophies.

Sherwood, wow.

I think there would have been a riot if he was given a job again.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Sherwood did a decent job in his little stint as manager. He improved the league position by 1 place compared to when he took over and also got some of the young players into the team. he was never going to be a long term appointment but I would happily have had him come in for the final 10 games of this season instead of Stellini.

Something that Sherwood also knows is what it takes to win a PL title. I think it is probably worth listening to the likes of Sherwood, Mourinho and Conte (three people who know what it is to win the PL title) if they all claim that our dressing room is lacking that drive and desire. I know that when Redknapp took over from Ramos at Spurs, the first thing he said needed to be addressed was how the dressing room was lacking in characters and in that January he knew he had to spend money on the right sort of characters.

Personally I think the lack of really wanting to win comes from the top and largely from the fact that the first (and only) thing that happens at Spurs is that the manager pays for it with his job when CL is missed/looks like it might be missed. However, despite that we still need a manager who will do all they can to get a whole group of players that will hold each other accountable for bad results, that may even include when 'reserve' players come in against lower league teams in the Cups. I'd love the senior players to berate the reserve players who don't get results in that game for costing the whole club the chance to compete across multiple trophies.

Generally, I'd listen to guys who've managed Premier League clubs. Sherwood, not so much. This is the fella who said Vertonghen wasn't a good footballer. The fella who said that Bentancur wasn't as good as what we already had. He talks an awful lot of brick.

His rant about us was full of rhetoric. But it also applied to a bunch of players who are no longer here which is why it isn't relevant to this discussion. The only one who played that day and is still here is Hugo.

I don't deny that we are missing some strong characters. But I also do not accept that our lads just show up to collect their money and don't give a fudge about the club or the fans. That's nonsense. You don't get to the level these boys are at by not caring.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Sherwood did a decent job in his little stint as manager. He improved the league position by 1 place compared to when he took over and also got some of the young players into the team. he was never going to be a long term appointment but I would happily have had him come in for the final 10 games of this season instead of Stellini.

Something that Sherwood also knows is what it takes to win a PL title. I think it is probably worth listening to the likes of Sherwood, Mourinho and Conte (three people who know what it is to win the PL title) if they all claim that our dressing room is lacking that drive and desire. I know that when Redknapp took over from Ramos at Spurs, the first thing he said needed to be addressed was how the dressing room was lacking in characters and in that January he knew he had to spend money on the right sort of characters.

Personally I think the lack of really wanting to win comes from the top and largely from the fact that the first (and only) thing that happens at Spurs is that the manager pays for it with his job when CL is missed/looks like it might be missed. However, despite that we still need a manager who will do all they can to get a whole group of players that will hold each other accountable for bad results, that may even include when 'reserve' players come in against lower league teams in the Cups. I'd love the senior players to berate the reserve players who don't get results in that game for costing the whole club the chance to compete across multiple trophies.

Sherwood would have likely been a bigger disaster because:
a) the tactical intracacies of the game has moved on since 2014
b) Sherwood has even less kudus given his failures since he's been with us not to mention how he's been as a pundit
c) would likely add even more toxicity to the match-day experience given his post-match interviews

Totally agree with you about the lack of 'winning mentality' coming from the top.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Sherwood, wow.

I think there would have been a riot if he was given a job again.

Sherwood improved us in his shortish stint last time, we were playing horrible, uninventive football under AVB and Sherwood improved results and performances (though admittedly from a low bar of what came immediately before him) as well as integrating some young players.

I don't think he would've said our performance against ten man Everton was 'fine' as Stellini did. I also don't think he would've stood there on the sideline saying and doing nothing as our team retreated further and further back and allowed Everton to have more and more possession.

He probably also would've abandoned the back 3 (as I think a lot of us want) to get an extra body in midfield and if there wasn't a first team player to play right back or left back or wherever then he would've promoted one from the youth team as opposed to being so afraid to use any of them.

I'm not saying that Sherwood would've been a 'good' answer by the way.... Just that almost anyone would be a better answer than the organ grinder's monkey that we presently have in charge as we sleepwalk our way to a 7th to 9th placed PL finish.

 

[glasgowspur]

Arsenal, who everyone is admiring this season, let West Ham back into the game. Heck, even Leicester almost came back against City and with better finishing could have snatched a point. It is a normal occurrence in games for the team that is down to seize the initiative, especially in the PL.

Looking at this particular game, we did not deserve to lose. Yes, for 20 minutes in the first half Bournemouth had the ball longer, but they created absolutely nothing until Porro's mistake that led to their equalizer. After that it was all Spurs, with another "mistake" leading to their 2nd goal. And after that goal Bournemouth barely managed to get the ball out of their half. So I think that we showed a lot of fight and spirit to come back and equalize. Had Richie's header gone in towards the end, it would have been game over and 3 points in the bag. Instead what happened is what happens many times in such games: the team that is pushing to get a goal concedes one on the counter. Really fine margins here.

So let's put things in perspective. This was not the same performance as the ones we put in against Everton and Soton. But because of the results in these two games, I think people are letting their frustration from these games color their reaction to this game. And also letting some silly mistakes at the back color the entire performance of the team. I'm not sure what else the team could have done to atone for the mistakes that allowed Bournemouth to take a 2-1 lead. Just look at the stats and that should give you the answer.

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I feel you would have a stronger point if those "silly mistakes" didn't happen every other week.
Large parts of Saturday where exactly like the performances in the games you mention.
Was there improvement, yes, was it enough, most definitely not.
We got outscored by the team with the third worst gd in the league, at home, after going a goal up.

 

[parklane1]

You have to laugh at those who believe/think Sherwood did a great job, the reason they say that is just so they can have yet ANOTHER dig at Levy. I meet loads of supporters at games and i can honestly say i have met not more then a handful ( if that) who would want Sherwood back or thought he did a good job here.

 

[harr1984]

Sherwood improved us in his shortish stint last time, we were playing horrible, uninventive football under AVB and Sherwood improved results and performances (though admittedly from a low bar of what came immediately before him) as well as integrating some young players.

I don't think he would've said our performance against Everton was 'fine' as Stellini did. I also don't think he would've stood there on the sideline saying and doing nothing as our team retreated further and further back and allowed Everton to have more and more possession.

He probably also would've abandoned the back 3 (as I think a lot of us want) to get an extra body in midfield and if there wasn't a first team player to play right back or left back or wherever then he would've promoted one from the youth team as opposed to being so afraid to use any of them.

I'm not saying that Sherwood would've been a 'good' answer by the way.... Just that almost anyone would be a better answer than the organ grinder's monkey that we presently have in charge as we sleepwalk our way to a 7th to 9th placed PL finish.

Sherwood had a win percentage of 50% and one of the best stats ever of a Spurs manager at the time (obviously a smaller sample size). Certainly played better football than this, with a far inferior group of players….

 

[Lemonade Money]

The formation frustrates me

- 5 at the back isn't protecting us, can't possible any worse than 4 -> problem is we have pushed out players who could play FB (we probably could still do it with Royal and Davies when fit)
- We need at least 3 in midfield, if that is 4-3-3, or the old 4-2-3-1, not sure I care
- The challenge in midfield is even with extra man or two, we simply have no real creative option
- Son, Kane & Deki don't work for me in this system, not enough energy/real pressing, so again the outnumbered midfield suffers from lack of protection. Playing one of Richi/Danjuma makes a difference

This is why Conte is a total fudge up for me (both him and hiring him)
If in January (or post WC) we had gone (using your 4-3-3)

Royal - Romero - New CB (instead of spending on Porro) - Davies
Bentancur/PEH - Skipp - Sarr
Deki/Danjuma - Kane - Son/Richi

with real rotation, just the energy levels of having Skipp, Sarr plus one of Danjuma/Richi in the side would have changed us.

With the squad we've got, I would play PEH as the furthest forward creative midfielder in a three - he can pick a pass and score a goal. Skipp and Sarr behind him now, and Skipp and Bentancur when he's back. 4-2-3-1. Buy a better creative midfielder in the summer, new goalkeeper, and someone better to partner Romero - that's actually a new spine near enough.

 

[spurspinter1]

Really good post mate and to me this is an/the interesting conversation

I've been a fan for a while, and yes through the brick years, and because I lived outside of the UK for a long part of that, just being able to go to games has some resonance with me.

That said, I get the frustration, the almost, the if only, the wanting more. for me personally (and we can always only speak for ourselves) it comes down to a few things
- I separate the game from the season, if I'm not going to a game (significant investment of time and money) to enjoy myself on the day, why go? and getting sucked into the "must win", what does this mean for 4th, if we don't win this Kane will leave, etc. is a rathole to misery. And when supporting Spurs was/is at it's best is when we are positive as fans, does anyone really enjoy bricking on a player? it was uncomfortable in the stadium on Saturday.
- As you get older, you learn negativity is (no pun intended) really not a positive attribute, it's not good mentally. And anger/negativity in this context comes from expectations (and I get your point about you should want to do better), but expectation is (and I'm not digging anyone out) a childish emotion, adults know even the best laid plans go wrong, sometimes repeatedly.
- You also know comparison isn't helpful, there is always someone in a better life position than you, and I genuinely think this is where we go wrong. We are always looking at City, Pool, United plus whoever this season's success is, while ignoring conveniently who isn't doing well at the point in time. Just like next season if Chelsea do ok, they will be the model we should have been following for the last five years, and I'm really interested in the Scum conversation when they revert to norm.

Bit of a ramble, but what I will tell you is the people who have a right to moan/boo/whatever have made the matchday experience significantly worse to the point where I will at some point consider giving up my tickets not because of the football but because how miserable people want to be at the game (it isn't fun for me anymore)

I won't respond to all points but I can imagination the division between those who are displaying their disappointment/ frustration by booing and those who find it an abhorrent thing to do is rather unpleasant.

It's a bit like telling the nutcase on the bus to shut the fudge up / reconsider their behavior rather than sitting in silence, you're probably in the right for doing so but you make yourself a target for the vitriol by doing the right thing. If it gets to the point where it is genuinely unpleasant at the stadium I can totally understand not wanting to invest the time / money in to it as you want to have a positive community feeling rather than just seeing angry people venting usually as a distraction from their own real life problems.

Absolutely right on comparison. It's easy to forget that if we do finish 4th, how many clubs in the English league system are we ahead of, whether it's by chance / fortune or logistics/ planning. As I say though ours is a special case in the last ten years especially of being right there on the precipice. In a sense it'd have been easier to stay properly mediocre because the success we did have raised expectations - On that point, I'm not sure I agree that expectations are necessarily a childish emotion but more the reaction if they aren't met, especially if it's something totally out of our control like football...The added frustration may come from how we seemingly have tried multitude of approaches, but as cliche as it is, all we can do if try to start fresh next season and hope for the best.

That said, there isn't a club out there I'd rather support, and I can definitely be one to have a bit of a moan on here I do try to keep it in perspective. Had a Utd supporting cousin from Preston (go figure) telling me how tough it was watching his club through the dark ages of the Van Gaal / Ole era, the lack of awareness was fudging astounding.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Sherwood had a win percentage of 50% and one of the best stats ever of a Spurs manager at the time (obviously a smaller sample size). Certainly played better football than this, with a far inferior group of players….

AVB absolutely humiliated Adebayor. Sherwood was simply living off Abebayor ramming AVBs words down his throat.

 

[Grays_1890]

Sherwood, wow.

I think there would have been a riot if he was given a job again.

The lunatics have left the asylum if people think Sherwood is the answer, even in the short term. Times change, his impact would have come from being at the club and involved in the youth set up, his impact coming in after his stint slating the squad in the media and his disastrous stint at Villa and then at Swindon as DOF would be alot different I think.

Made me laugh though, imagine seeing that Gillet wearing kn0bhead back

 

[spurspinter1]

Agree with most of this but a couple of things - I said at the time I didn’t think our transfer window business was all that and I stand by that. I don’t think many of the players signed were game changers that you would really look at and say ‘Wow, we can really kick on from here’. We acquired some decent players, nothing more nothing less - I think people got over excited because we actually did our business early for once.

As for the booing, people are really annoyed by it because it’s aimed at the individual rather than the collective and it achieves absolutely nothing. No one has an issue when fans boo the team but to single out Sanchez is pathetic. He gives his all and is clearly a confidence player, and is only going to knock his confidence further on the pitch which works to our favour in no way whatsoever. He also has many friends here who he has played with for years and it affects them too, not only seeing how he is affected but also affects them having to worry how our ‘fans’ will treat them if they make a fudge up which in turn will make our football even worse (if at all possible). So people rightly get annoyed by it because it helps no one, achieves nothing and Sanchez deserves better regardless of his ability….

Interesting on the signings and fair point on the excitement around actually getting business sorted out early, it was a lovely and rare feeling! I for one was very happy with Richy despite what did seem like a large fee, we'd been lacking genuine competition across the front three for such a long time. I would guess most people who'd have predicted for him to have had as bad a season as he has, would've been regarded as being massively downbeat. still can't really believe the last minute miss against Bournemouth, that is one of his strengths.... Similar case with Bissouma, these guys were meant to hit the ground running but instead were run down by injuries (or possibly more the system in Yves' case). Perisic looked like a great idea at the time on paper.

The worry was at CB and RWB, not to kick a man when he's down but one injury to Romero / Dier and Titus Bramble's Colombian cousin would be called upon, as Tanganga unfortunately been able to push on.

I'm wary of sounding like I'm justifying the booing, it's not helpful but I believe to those that are angry at the club's recent direction / lack of progress, Sanchez represents the stagnation. Nobody was booing Skipp, because he does the basics right. As for Sanchez I'd say there were many in the stands that would have a better first touch than he does on one of his shaky days. If we single out players for praise it does seem reasonable (even if not productive) to do the same with criticism, I appreciate the "it's not his fault he's not good enough" argument but it's hard to criticize the powers that be specifically for ending up with having him on the pitch.

He is a human yes. Anyone stepping over the line to abuse him is a clam, no doubt. But I've worked in kitchens for minimum wage where you get trays thrown you / yelled at if you make mistakes. When you've got to keep the job to pay the bills being sensitive isn't an option. Of course everyone should be happy / feel appreciated in the work place, that said I'd rather be in Sanchez's position than mine. I feel like Davo himself would also stick rather than twist if being a KP in the Boiling Point kitchen was the other option. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that but I do think there's an OTT reaction to the fans' reaction (not in terms of any online abuse as that's properly cowardly but specifically the booing).

 

[Finney Is Back]

You have to laugh at those who believe/think Sherwood did a great job, the reason they say that is just so they can have yet ANOTHER dig at Levy. I meet loads of supporters at games and i can honestly say i have met not more then a handful ( if that) who would want Sherwood back or thought he did a good job here.

I'm not sure that anyone thinks Sherwood did a great job (well other than Sherwood himself and perhaps Les Ferdinand). He improved what came immediately before him however. I don't think Stellini will get anywhere close to doing that. Hopefully I end up being proved wrong there, seriously doubt I will be though.

 

[parklane1]

I'm not sure that anyone thinks Sherwood did a great job (well other than Sherwood himself and perhaps Les Ferdinand). He improved what came immediately before him however. I don't think Stellini will get anywhere close to doing that. Hopefully I end up being proved wrong there, seriously doubt I will be though.

Well i think we can both agree that Stellini will not do that for sure.

 

[billyiddo]

People are fudging clutching at straws to be talking up Sherwood, guy was a muppet and a charlatan and it was one of the most embarrassing periods in the clubs history having him stand on the touchlines.

And for that you can blame Levy for being hoodwinked in to giving him the first team coach job.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think there’s a direct correlation for people who were very anti-Sherwood also loved AVB and disliked Redknapp. Therefor if you liked AVB, chances are you would discredit Sherwood at every opportunity. For whatever reason, a few on here loved AVB and would have been against anyone who took over from him.

Im not advocating for Sherwood btw, but he didn’t do a bad job, especially when compared against AVB.

 

[Diamond Lights]

this is where we are now. Discussing Tim fudging Sherwood. christ what a collapse that is. imagine this conversation 4 years ago...

Just bring Poch back. At least the majority will be behind him. Bring some fudging positivity to this brick heap.

Read a great tweet other day. Spurs should thank Pochettino for making it the sort of club that thinks it's too big for Pochettino.

 

[We are Tottenham]

Generic comments haha I forgot to add that

The thing with our recruitment is one, in the recruitment but equally there is undoubtedly targets on players back based on price or perceived effectiveness based on loan. Kulu got pelters early on for example, was well talked about on here.

We all want better players but I also believe there is an "over the fence" attitude where we see what others do and judge on that BUT as I've said loads, would fans be as patient as other clubs whilst those players develop? I have reservations based on previous examples of hounding I've seen


Sent from my SM-A127F using Fapatalk

waiting for players to develop!?

good or exceptional players know how to play? waiting for players to develop is nonsense! IMO.
There you are ..I don't normally get that dogmatic on an opinion but you either have got it or not and I'm pretty sure most fans
have had enough of waiting till the cows come home for us to win something.
I know really good international players cost but we keep buying too many duds and then we can't offload them.