*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Bournemouth ***

[thfcsteff]

Antonio Conte did, despite his own flaws...
...Jose Mourinho did, despite his own flaws.


Both of those seem to me to be a lot more relevant than the one time Lloris called Son out years ago (and that was notable for its absolute rarity).



What scrutiny? Conte's scrutiny? Mourinho's scrutiny? Two professional coaches who have coached these losers, worked with them, seen them every day? Under that scrutiny, it was abundantly clear that 'pampered millionaires swanning around' seems very apt to describe this lot...

The players obviously bear a portion of the responsibility...

...but Mourinho and Conte are the archetypal 'pampered millionaires' of the management world! Are there two managers who demand more specific conditions in world football? Two managers who throw their pram toys at the slightest wave of compromise? Who throw players under the bus with no issues? In Mourinho's case, who will sometimes split a dressing room in order to dominate it? And get paid many, many millions to do so?

You can blame Sanchez all you want, the facts are he has been here for several managers, never plays close to regularly, hardly ever played in a system which might not highlight his faults, yet he gets picked and played. i.e. folks like Mourinho and Conte.

The club is rudderless right now; I think it is remarkable we aren't losing every game.

fudge Mourinho and to a lesser extent, Antonio. And the alpha who hired them...

 

[DubaiSpur]

The players obviously bear a portion of the responsibility...

...but Mourinho and Conte are the archetypal 'pampered millionaires' of the management world! Are there two managers who demand more specific conditions in world football? Two managers who throw their pram toys at the slightest wave of compromise? Who throw players under the bus with no issues? In Mourinho's case, who will sometimes split a dressing room in order to dominate it? And get paid many, many millions to do so?

You'll get no disagreement from me there - they're c*nts, always have been.

You can blame Sanchez all you want, the facts are he has been here for several managers, never plays close to regularly, hardly ever played in a system which might not highlight his faults, yet he gets picked and played. i.e. folks like Mourinho and Conte.

As I said to @Bedfordspurs yesterday, part of the blame lies with Conte for being taken in/fooled by the likes of Sanchez and Dier. That is on him - you have power no manager at the club has had in 20 grinding years under ENIC, and you choose to persevere with Eric Dier? You deserve everything coming to you, imo.

Bedford also made a good point that for all his bluster, Conte lacked the stones to actually drop Dier and rip up Sanchez's contract, as he should have done. Again, not the fearless alpha he claims to be.

However...I think you can acknowledge someone is a c*nt and also that they make good points. That is the case here. Both Mourinho and Conte have called out the terrible mentality of this lot of worthies, and I think their claims have a lot of merit. I'd wager Stellini will too before the end.

fudge Mourinho and to a lesser extent, Antonio. And the alpha who hired them...

As I think you'll recall, I was devastated the day Poch was sacked, and time has not changed my view that it was one of the greatest mistakes Levy has ever made at Spurs.

He had the one man who united a fractious fanbase, engendered genuine love for the team, brooked no laziness and did it all on a shoestring without ever calling Levy out for his many, many flaws.

Levy threw it away because he thought he could act like a big dog, without the pockets, intelligence or character to match. And he was duly taken advantage of - by Mou, and then Conte. Called out like he never was by Poch, exposed and left to endure public storms for most of the last two years, as the fanbase went from appreciative of his work on the stadium to chanting for his head in that very same stadium.

While I am pleased that every day proves to Levy how wrong he was, I'm sad we had to go through this to get to this point. Levy never knew what he had with Poch - maybe he still doesn't, since he hasn't tried to fix the mistake of 2019.

Cloughie got on his knees to plead with Peter Taylor to rejoin him - can you ever envision Levy doing something like that? Man's got too much hubris to even consider it.

 

[totalspurs]

You'll get no disagreement from me there - they're c*nts, always have been.



As I said to @Bedfordspurs yesterday, part of the blame lies with Conte for being taken in/fooled by the likes of Sanchez and Dier. That is on him - you have power no manager at the club has had in 20 grinding years under ENIC, and you choose to persevere with Eric Dier? You deserve everything coming to you, imo.

Bedford also made a good point that for all his bluster, Conte lacked the stones to actually drop Dier and rip up Sanchez's contract, as he should have done. Again, not the fearless alpha he claims to be.

However...I think you can acknowledge someone is a c*nt and also that they make good points. That is the case here. Both Mourinho and Conte have called out the terrible mentality of this lot of worthies, and I think their claims have a lot of merit. I'd wager Stellini will too before the end.



As I think you'll recall, I was devastated the day Poch was sacked, and time has not changed my view that it was one of the greatest mistakes Levy has ever made at Spurs.

He had the one man who united a fractious fanbase, engendered genuine love for the team, brooked no laziness and did it all on a shoestring without ever calling Levy out for his many, many flaws.

Levy threw it away because he thought he could act like a big dog, without the pockets, intelligence or character to match. And he was duly taken advantage of - by Mou, and then Conte. Called out like he never was by Poch, exposed and left to endure public storms for most of the last two years, as the fanbase went from appreciative of his work on the stadium to chanting for his head in that very same stadium.

While I am pleased that every day proves to Levy how wrong he was, I'm sad we had to go through this to get to this point. Levy never knew what he had with Poch - maybe he still doesn't, since he hasn't tried to fix the mistake of 2019.

Cloughie got on his knees to plead with Peter Taylor to rejoin him - can you ever envision Levy doing something like that? Man's got too much hubris to even consider it.

These are my thoughts exactly.

 

[thfcsteff]

You'll get no disagreement from me there - they're c*nts, always have been.



As I said to @Bedfordspurs yesterday, part of the blame lies with Conte for being taken in/fooled by the likes of Sanchez and Dier. That is on him - you have power no manager at the club has had in 20 grinding years under ENIC, and you choose to persevere with Eric Dier? You deserve everything coming to you, imo.

Bedford also made a good point that for all his bluster, Conte lacked the stones to actually drop Dier and rip up Sanchez's contract, as he should have done. Again, not the fearless alpha he claims to be.

However...I think you can acknowledge someone is a c*nt and also that they make good points. That is the case here. Both Mourinho and Conte have called out the terrible mentality of this lot of worthies, and I think their claims have a lot of merit. I'd wager Stellini will too before the end.



As I think you'll recall, I was devastated the day Poch was sacked, and time has not changed my view that it was one of the greatest mistakes Levy has ever made at Spurs.

He had the one man who united a fractious fanbase, engendered genuine love for the team, brooked no laziness and did it all on a shoestring without ever calling Levy out for his many, many flaws.

Levy threw it away because he thought he could act like a big dog, without the pockets, intelligence or character to match. And he was duly taken advantage of - by Mou, and then Conte. Called out like he never was by Poch, exposed and left to endure public storms for most of the last two years, as the fanbase went from appreciative of his work on the stadium to chanting for his head in that very same stadium.

While I am pleased that every day proves to Levy how wrong he was, I'm sad we had to go through this to get to this point. Levy never knew what he had with Poch - maybe he still doesn't, since he hasn't tried to fix the mistake of 2019.

Cloughie got on his knees to plead with Peter Taylor to rejoin him - can you ever envision Levy doing something like that? Man's got too much hubris to even consider it.

You will also find I called Conte a coward in similar regard. When he was appointed, I said it would clarify matters once and for all, because if he didn't get what he wanted, he'd be off regardless of timing. This is either what happened (in which case he is a worse manager than we thought) or he bottled it and didn't shout when he first got served a 'lesser' from the DoF's list (in which case he was only ever here in whatever self-interest he could squeeze.

As you know, everything you've said here about Poch I have also said. In fact, I have spent many thousands of words and countless hours saying all of this, including 2018/19 when he was getting some hard criticism here. Levy is far from the only one who didn't know what he had...

I think the biggest fault lies in hiring managers who operate systems which does not bring out the best in these players. Your targets for constant criticism are NOT well-served playing 3-4-3, furthermore, playing out from the back with a keeper whose own feet are somewhat dubious is not a sensational way to go about playing out from the back. So where I just don't get the constant player criticism, is that they are actually trying to do their best, they're just not all up to the counter-attacking tactics our last two managers seem to have favored. I mean, we have a WB-heavy system when our DOF bought a great right-back who almost instantly had to become a WB, we have the continual Sess experiment which seems doomed because he is not a great WB, we have Perisic who has been sub-par and whose best position is NOT WB, and we are having to use Ben Davies who has looked good in the role but let's face it, is not anyone's true WB choice. So that leaves Porro as the only WB we currently have who is fit and a specialist for the role, yet we continue to persist with the shape. It's like signing Lukaku and asking him to play like Son or Deki; I'm sure he could do it, but would probably be best to deploy him in his best role.

Too many of these players have not been played to their best assets. Look at Sonny. 5-10 yards further forward and tighter to Kane, and he's about to hit 'streak' form it feels like.

As for Sanchez, hurling insults at him for poor performances is a bit like hurling abuse at a grapefruit for not being an orange. It is what it is. It cannot be any more. Add to this the fact that for three or four seasons, he has been in and out, here and there, this position and that position, and it is simply a train-wreck to play him. Not his fault. FWIW, I thought moving Romero to LCB was a huge mistake. I understand the thought of trying to keep Sanchez where he'd be least troublesome (albeit perhaps not bring him on?), but in doing so, m it robbed Porro of Romero, it moved Romero to as uncomfortable a position in the 3 as he can have, and it sentenced Porro to Sanchez! So two larger problems arrive as a consequence of one.

Anyway, it is a quiet mess. I have no idea where we will go, but it feels like unless the top shifts (as I know you've said for sometime) we will be in for another revolution of ring a ring a roses...

 

[Grays_1890]

‘Got pelters’? You do exaggerate, I think there were one or two people on here who said he didn’t look great and far more who said it was stupid to make a call so quickly.

It isn’t the fans we have to worry about with players developing, it is the chairman as he’ll sack the manager when he misses/looks like he may miss qualifying for the CL. It is hard for a manager to let a young player develop under those pressures. I think our fans are actually pretty patient when it comes to young players, the likes of Gill and Sarr for example seem to get great support despite not actually doing much on the pitch.

Its not an exaggeration and the world of Spurs is not narrowed to this forum but there you go. There was certainly an element on here and elsewhere that called him poor, not good enough early doors and it then became a thing for those that then to be dug out but others when he came good, especially in the OMT. Just because he then proved people wrong and they changed their views in no way means that people did not go early in their judgements on him because they did

Sarr has because he despite his limited time has done well when he has come in, which is hard to do, I think you most definitely wrong on Gil who despite having less than three PL match totals in terms of minutes, many have made up their mind and very much (without exaggeration) he has been called all sorts on here and been written off as not good enough, the split is very much 50/50, its much the same maybe worse elsewhere.

We are renowned for going early on views across the board.

 

[Raziel]

Far far too many points after this to go into, but to answer your opening point just ask yourself questions which go to how emotionally attached you are to Spurs like:

- how much does it impact your weekend if Spurs throw away points?
- how distracted are you if Spurs are playing but for whatever reason you're not there or not even online?
- how much effort do you go to to find a stream/coverage if you cant be there?
- how tinkled off are you with the current shambles?

Its questions like that which answer your question

I meant it in the "do you love your SO/children when times are good, or at all points you actually love/support" Because some people seem to have a very abusive relationship with Spurs in a "what have you done for me lately kind of way"

And again, shambles is a perfect encapsulation of that view (to be clear, not a personal dig)
- Everton, West Ham, Chelsea, perhaps even Liverpool are in a shambles
- Spurs? we will likely finish in a European spot and are just one of the more than half the league to change their manager this season (13 firings)

Yet, the athletic is posting polls to Spurs fans on the crisis facing the club, how the fudge are they not running that poll for Chelsea?

 

[DeanoAustin]

Antonio Conte did, despite his own flaws. Here's his view -



Jose Mourinho did, despite his own flaws. Here's his view -



Both of those seem to me to be a lot more relevant than the one time Lloris called Son out years ago (and that was notable for its absolute rarity).



What scrutiny? Conte's scrutiny? Mourinho's scrutiny? Two professional coaches who have coached these losers, worked with them, seen them every day? Under that scrutiny, it was abundantly clear that 'pampered millionaires swanning around' seems very apt to describe this lot.



See above for the key point in Conte and Mourinho's views of this team - both of them feel that the players 'play for themselves'. Not for the team, for themselves. You can be a model pro, show up to training, and not give a single damn about holding your team-mates accountable. That I think is rampant here.

Tim Sherwood once accused the players of something similar, and it is applicable to us in 2023 as it was when it was said in 2014:



Same captain then and now - Hugo Lloris. Which is why I say he's part of the issue.

In Conte's last press conference, he was contradicting himself and outright lying. Go back and listen to the "fire in their eyes" bit where he contradicted what he said the week before and lied about it. Several of the players have questioned/rubbished his comments that there were "11 selfish players" and most pundits also questioned how that could be true as well. So, while there was a lot of truth in Conte's last press conference, there was a lot of emotional, knee jerk playing to the gallery nonsense too.

In that documentary, Harry had a go at the team in a meeting IIRC and Dier held Alli accountable after the Wolves game for his comments. And that was just the stuff we saw.

Jose's comments don't really support your claims. He's had a go at them for sloppy passing and reminded them of their responsibilities. Every manager up and down the country has done that at some point.

As for Tactics Tim. You can't hold that up for 2 reasons. 1, he's an imbecile. 2, Lloris is the only player from that starting 11 still with the club. World Cup winning captain Hugo Lloris. Most accept, and Sherwood's subsequent comments seem to indicate, that Vertonghen was one of the main targets of his comments. I think most would agree that Vertonghen was one of the best CBs we've had over the last 60 years.

You said:

He's part of the problem - no one in that dressing room holds each other accountable, but they're happy to call out the fans who pay their wages.

That filters through - and eventually, fans decide that they will hold the players accountable if the players themselves do not.

Mind, I'm not excusing what happened. But I can see why it did. Every single motivator a group of football players should have to perform well has failed with this group - nothing even remotely bothers them about losing to anyone and everyone.

They don't care about professional pride, don't care about being laughed at by their opposition or schooled by the likes of Bournemouth, don't care about justifying their enormous wages, don't care about being trophyless wonders. And they certainly don't care about what they've put the fans through as a result, nor what that means for the club they represent. They just collect their paycheck and turn in sh*te, week after week, oblivious and happy.

That's a lot more extreme than anything Conte, Jose or Sherwood have said. And it's knee jerk flimflam. It's nice to believe that the players don't care but it's lowest common denominator stuff. They don't get to the level they are at by not caring.

Are the players perfect? No. They clearly lack something. But I don't believe we have any rotten eggs in the dressing room who aren't giving their all or who are causing major problems like Man U had last season or Chelsea had for about a decade. We just have a group of players lacking that little bit of steel, some who aren't good enough and some who've been here too long. For me, this is a bunch who have been f**ked in the ass by the club and are now going to be left to take the frustration of supporters for 4 years of mismanagement as we crawl towards the end of the season without any plan or leadership.

 

[Raziel]

Are the players perfect? No. They clearly lack something. But I don't believe we have any rotten eggs in the dressing room who aren't giving their all or who are causing major problems like Man U had last season or Chelsea had for about a decade. We just have a group of players lacking that little bit of steel, some who aren't good enough and some who've been here too long. For me, this is a bunch who have been f**ked in the ass by the club and are now going to be left to take the frustration of supporters for 4 years of mismanagement as we crawl towards the end of the season without any plan or leadership.

My view

- We do have a few players in the comfortable zone, but not as many as people think
- Our players respond well to motivators not disciplinarians and that's beyond the timeline of these players, Jol, Harry, Poch vs. Juade, Jose, Conte. I suspect modern players in general expect that approach.

I think this team could have walked top 4 this season with a better (or more focused manager).

That said, CB upgrades and a creative midfielder continue to be a gap to fill

 

[spurspinter1]

I meant it in the "do you love your SO/children when times are good, or at all points you actually love/support" Because some people seem to have a very abusive relationship with Spurs in a "what have you done for me lately kind of way"

And again, shambles is a perfect encapsulation of that view (to be clear, not a personal dig)
- Everton, West Ham, Chelsea, perhaps even Liverpool are in a shambles
- Spurs? we will likely finish in a European spot and are just one of the more than half the league to change their manager this season (13 firings)

Yet, the athletic is posting polls to Spurs fans on the crisis facing the club, how the fudge are they not running that poll for Chelsea?

It's an interesting debate delving in to the relationship people have with the club, of course everyone has a different story of why they support Spurs and different expectations.

It's not an excuse for what may be labelled toxic behavior but there is something to be said for being so near yet so far to greatness, and also this idea that the new stadium + training facilities + CL football were what was needed to take us to the next level.

The big money / wage signings have more often than not been a nightmare and the elite managers have been unsuccessful even with the supposed world class infrastructure. We left WHL when it was a fortress, had a strong identity and were rightly proud of the team and unified as a fan base. To me at least it makes sense that there's some bitterness, yeah sure we win some "best stadium awards" and the finance spreadsheets are wonderful no doubt but one can only wonder what we may have achieved if profit wasn't the main ambition. No doubt Truss would label me an anti growth-er but Poch and that team could have made a real legacy.

The club has a habit of punishing fans for daring to dream beyond finishing in the champions league. It is the hope that gets you in the end. Crystal Palace have a great atmosphere because they have no expectation and are just happy to be in the premier league most of the time. Maybe it's snobby but we do as a fan base rightfully expect to be a bit more competitive. This idea that fans should just turn up and cheer the whole time regardless of what is happening on the pitch is a haunting one for me, "be positive and grateful for whatever brick show is unfolding as it could be worse".

Given how good we looked in the run in last season, with a decisive transfer window and a strong relationship between manager and DOF it actually looked quite promising.

As for media interest and potentially hyping up the "current shambles" - I genuinely think it is fascinating for the neutrals and fans alike as to how we can routinely screw up despite seemingly having everything in place.

This post might not be super coherent or may even come across as entitled. Being a younger fan than some, I didn't live through the horrors of times when we were comparatively much worse than we are now but it's not a bad thing to want your club to do well. People booing or having a moan on the internet is being made out to be some kind of war crime, pretending like there isn't a reason to be disappointed is an odd one for me.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Does the way we got suck-punched by Bournemouth (which i could see a mile off especially once they brought on Outtara who i remebered absolutely killed the Liverpool defence without being able to finish) actually prove that we simply don't have the players right now to 'play on the front foot' and have to play coy/smart/conservative?

 

[harr1984]

It's an interesting debate delving in to the relationship people have with the club, of course everyone has a different story of why they support Spurs and different expectations.

It's not an excuse for what may be labelled toxic behavior but there is something to be said for being so near yet so far to greatness, and also this idea that the new stadium + training facilities + CL football were what was needed to take us to the next level.

The big money / wage signings have more often than not been a nightmare and the elite managers have been unsuccessful even with the supposed world class infrastructure. We left WHL when it was a fortress, had a strong identity and were rightly proud of the team and unified as a fan base. To me at least it makes sense that there's some bitterness, yeah sure we win some "best stadium awards" and the finance spreadsheets are wonderful no doubt but one can only wonder what we may have achieved if profit wasn't the main ambition. No doubt Truss would label me an anti growth-er but Poch and that team could have made a real legacy.

The club has a habit of punishing fans for daring to dream beyond finishing in the champions league. It is the hope that gets you in the end. Crystal Palace have a great atmosphere because they have no expectation and are just happy to be in the premier league most of the time. Maybe it's snobby but we do as a fan base rightfully expect to be a bit more competitive. This idea that fans should just turn up and cheer the whole time regardless of what is happening on the pitch is a haunting one for me, "be positive and grateful for whatever brick show is unfolding as it could be worse".

Given how good we looked in the run in last season, with a decisive transfer window and a strong relationship between manager and DOF it actually looked quite promising.

As for media interest and potentially hyping up the "current shambles" - I genuinely think it is fascinating for the neutrals and fans alike as to how we can routinely screw up despite seemingly having everything in place.

This post might not be super coherent or may even come across as entitled. Being a younger fan than some, I didn't live through the horrors of times when we were comparatively much worse than we are now but it's not a bad thing to want your club to do well. People booing or having a but moan on the internet is being made out to be some kind of war crime, pretending like there isn't a reason to be disappointed is an odd one for me.

Agree with most of this but a couple of things - I said at the time I didn’t think our transfer window business was all that and I stand by that. I don’t think many of the players signed were game changers that you would really look at and say ‘Wow, we can really kick on from here’. We acquired some decent players, nothing more nothing less - I think people got over excited because we actually did our business early for once.

As for the booing, people are really annoyed by it because it’s aimed at the individual rather than the collective and it achieves absolutely nothing. No one has an issue when fans boo the team but to single out Sanchez is pathetic. He gives his all and is clearly a confidence player, and is only going to knock his confidence further on the pitch which works to our favour in no way whatsoever. He also has many friends here who he has played with for years and it affects them too, not only seeing how he is affected but also affects them having to worry how our ‘fans’ will treat them if they make a fudge up which in turn will make our football even worse (if at all possible). So people rightly get annoyed by it because it helps no one, achieves nothing and Sanchez deserves better regardless of his ability….

 

[Raziel]

It's an interesting debate delving in to the relationship people have with the club, of course everyone has a different story of why they support Spurs and different expectations.

It's not an excuse for what may be labelled toxic behavior but there is something to be said for being so near yet so far to greatness, and also this idea that the new stadium + training facilities + CL football were what was needed to take us to the next level.

The big money / wage signings have more often than not been a nightmare and the elite managers have been unsuccessful even with the supposed world class infrastructure. We left WHL when it was a fortress, had a strong identity and were rightly proud of the team and unified as a fan base. To me at least it makes sense that there's some bitterness, yeah sure we win some "best stadium awards" and the finance spreadsheets are wonderful no doubt but one can only wonder what we may have achieved if profit wasn't the main ambition. No doubt Truss would label me an anti growth-er but Poch and that team could have made a real legacy.

The club has a habit of punishing fans for daring to dream beyond finishing in the champions league. It is the hope that gets you in the end. Crystal Palace have a great atmosphere because they have no expectation and are just happy to be in the premier league most of the time. Maybe it's snobby but we do as a fan base rightfully expect to be a bit more competitive. This idea that fans should just turn up and cheer the whole time regardless of what is happening on the pitch is a haunting one for me, "be positive and grateful for whatever brick show is unfolding as it could be worse".

Given how good we looked in the run in last season, with a decisive transfer window and a strong relationship between manager and DOF it actually looked quite promising.

As for media interest and potentially hyping up the "current shambles" - I genuinely think it is fascinating for the neutrals and fans alike as to how we can routinely screw up despite seemingly having everything in place.

This post might not be super coherent or may even come across as entitled. Being a younger fan than some, I didn't live through the horrors of times when we were comparatively much worse than we are now but it's not a bad thing to want your club to do well. People booing or having a but moan on the internet is being made out to be some kind of war crime, pretending like there isn't a reason to be disappointed is an odd one for me.

Really good post mate and to me this is an/the interesting conversation

I've been a fan for a while, and yes through the brick years, and because I lived outside of the UK for a long part of that, just being able to go to games has some resonance with me.

That said, I get the frustration, the almost, the if only, the wanting more. for me personally (and we can always only speak for ourselves) it comes down to a few things
- I separate the game from the season, if I'm not going to a game (significant investment of time and money) to enjoy myself on the day, why go? and getting sucked into the "must win", what does this mean for 4th, if we don't win this Kane will leave, etc. is a rathole to misery. And when supporting Spurs was/is at it's best is when we are positive as fans, does anyone really enjoy bricking on a player? it was uncomfortable in the stadium on Saturday.
- As you get older, you learn negativity is (no pun intended) really not a positive attribute, it's not good mentally. And anger/negativity in this context comes from expectations (and I get your point about you should want to do better), but expectation is (and I'm not digging anyone out) a childish emotion, adults know even the best laid plans go wrong, sometimes repeatedly.
- You also know comparison isn't helpful, there is always someone in a better life position than you, and I genuinely think this is where we go wrong. We are always looking at City, Pool, United plus whoever this season's success is, while ignoring conveniently who isn't doing well at the point in time. Just like next season if Chelsea do ok, they will be the model we should have been following for the last five years, and I'm really interested in the Scum conversation when they revert to norm.

Bit of a ramble, but what I will tell you is the people who have a right to moan/boo/whatever have made the matchday experience significantly worse to the point where I will at some point consider giving up my tickets not because of the football but because how miserable people want to be at the game (it isn't fun for me anymore)

 

[Raziel]

Does the way we got suck-punched by Bournemouth (which i could see a mile off especially once they brought on Outtara who i remebered absolutely killed the Liverpool defence without being able to finish) actually prove that we simply don't have the players right now to 'play on the front foot' and have to play coy/smart/conservative?

Not really, you would have to discuss the context of the game properly

- Once again we chose to be outnumbered in midfield against a lower level team (that we can see from a mile off)
- Despite that, the game was a walk in the park until Lenglet got injured
- Our injuries are significant (having Davies or Royal fit would have countered the issue of Lenglet off)
- Kane, Son and Richi all had real opportunities

What I would say is our players probably have very little muscle memory of playing on the front foot based on the last 3 years, so it will leave us a bit disjointed when we do want to go for it.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Not really, you would have to discuss the context of the game properly

- Once again we chose to be outnumbered in midfield against a lower level team (that we can see from a mile off)
- Despite that, the game was a walk in the park until Lenglet got injured
- Our injuries are significant (having Davies or Royal fit would have countered the issue of Lenglet off)
- Kane, Son and Richi all had real opportunities

What I would say is our players probably have very little muscle memory of playing on the front foot based on the last 3 years, so it will leave us a bit disjointed when we do want to go for it.

I would say we are just about in agreement. However, remember this was lowly Bournemouth as well and not a mid-table side.
I would say we were comfortable-ish before Lenglent went off (and even then they were causing us slight problems down his side, i remember him having to follow a forward into their half and commit a foul otherwise we were in trouble) but not swatting them aside at all, i.e. constantly missing sitters.
Being outnumbered again in midfield is indeed a stubborn ongoing problem, but with the injuries we have it's a case of bringing in Sarr for someone and dropping one of Perisic or Son.

I'd love a 4-3-3 myself but again, given our CB options i can see how some teams better than Bournemouth could easily rip us to shreds...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Also, yet another late gaol conceded...remember when it was US who used to score them??

 

[alekaras]

yes you can, because although the defence fudged up with the goal as you yourself admit we had good chances and didn't take them, the front line fudged them up.
other than skipp the "midfield" was anonymous once bournemouth started coming back into the game.

Arsenal, who everyone is admiring this season, let West Ham back into the game. Heck, even Leicester almost came back against City and with better finishing could have snatched a point. It is a normal occurrence in games for the team that is down to seize the initiative, especially in the PL.

Looking at this particular game, we did not deserve to lose. Yes, for 20 minutes in the first half Bournemouth had the ball longer, but they created absolutely nothing until Porro's mistake that led to their equalizer. After that it was all Spurs, with another "mistake" leading to their 2nd goal. And after that goal Bournemouth barely managed to get the ball out of their half. So I think that we showed a lot of fight and spirit to come back and equalize. Had Richie's header gone in towards the end, it would have been game over and 3 points in the bag. Instead what happened is what happens many times in such games: the team that is pushing to get a goal concedes one on the counter. Really fine margins here.

So let's put things in perspective. This was not the same performance as the ones we put in against Everton and Soton. But because of the results in these two games, I think people are letting their frustration from these games color their reaction to this game. And also letting some silly mistakes at the back color the entire performance of the team. I'm not sure what else the team could have done to atone for the mistakes that allowed Bournemouth to take a 2-1 lead. Just look at the stats and that should give you the answer.

 

[Raziel]

I would say we are just about in agreement. However, remember this was lowly Bournemouth as well and not a mid-table side.
I would say we were comfortable-ish before Lenglent went off (and even then they were causing us slight problems down his side, i remember him having to follow a forward into their half and commit a foul otherwise we were in trouble) but not swatting them aside at all, i.e. constantly missing sitters.
Being outnumbered again in midfield is indeed a stubborn ongoing problem, but with the injuries we have it's a case of bringing in Sarr for someone and dropping one of Perisic or Son.

I'd love a 4-3-3 myself but again, given our CB options i can see how some teams better than Bournemouth could easily rip us to shreds...

The formation frustrates me

- 5 at the back isn't protecting us, can't possible any worse than 4 -> problem is we have pushed out players who could play FB (we probably could still do it with Royal and Davies when fit)
- We need at least 3 in midfield, if that is 4-3-3, or the old 4-2-3-1, not sure I care
- The challenge in midfield is even with extra man or two, we simply have no real creative option
- Son, Kane & Deki don't work for me in this system, not enough energy/real pressing, so again the outnumbered midfield suffers from lack of protection. Playing one of Richi/Danjuma makes a difference

This is why Conte is a total fudge up for me (both him and hiring him)
If in January (or post WC) we had gone (using your 4-3-3)

Royal - Romero - New CB (instead of spending on Porro) - Davies
Bentancur/PEH - Skipp - Sarr
Deki/Danjuma - Kane - Son/Richi

with real rotation, just the energy levels of having Skipp, Sarr plus one of Danjuma/Richi in the side would have changed us.

 

[Raziel]

Looking at this particular game, we did not deserve to lose. Yes, for 20 minutes in the first half Bournemouth had the ball longer, but they created absolutely nothing until Porro's mistake that led to their equalizer. After that it was all Spurs, with another "mistake" leading to their 2nd goal. And after that goal Bournemouth barely managed to get the ball out of their half. So I think that we showed a lot of fight and spirit to come back and equalize. Had Richie's header gone in towards the end, it would have been game over and 3 points in the bag. Instead what happened is what happens many times in such games: the team that is pushing to get a goal concedes one on the counter. Really fine margins here.

So let's put things in perspective. This was not the same performance as the ones we put in against Everton and Soton. But because of the results in these two games, I think people are letting their frustration from these games color their reaction to this game. And also letting some silly mistakes at the back color the entire performance of the team. I'm not sure what else the team could have done to atone for the mistakes that allowed Bournemouth to take a 2-1 lead. Just look at the stats and that should give you the answer.

I got told off for that point of view.

I also added the reason we got suckered in the end was because we were going for it (what everyone is constantly asking for), yet people say the game was Conte Mk2

 

[glorygloryeze]

The formation frustrates me

- 5 at the back isn't protecting us, can't possible any worse than 4 -> problem is we have pushed out players who could play FB (we probably could still do it with Royal and Davies when fit)
- We need at least 3 in midfield, if that is 4-3-3, or the old 4-2-3-1, not sure I care
- The challenge in midfield is even with extra man or two, we simply have no real creative option
- Son, Kane & Deki don't work for me in this system, not enough energy/real pressing, so again the outnumbered midfield suffers from lack of protection. Playing one of Richi/Danjuma makes a difference

This is why Conte is a total fudge up for me (both him and hiring him)
If in January (or post WC) we had gone (using your 4-3-3)

Royal - Romero - New CB (instead of spending on Porro) - Davies
Bentancur/PEH - Skipp - Sarr
Deki/Danjuma - Kane - Son/Richi

with real rotation, just the energy levels of having Skipp, Sarr plus one of Danjuma/Richi in the side would have changed us.

Yeah, the drop-off in Kulusevski is quite shocking. Having him with Kane and Son certainly used to work but i think either his injury has set him back or teams have worked him out and the coaches are not adjusting our gameplan for this.
I do wonder if Son's drop-off has shielded Kulusevski from a lot more scrutiny...but he's clearly not the only player who has dropped levels in the last few months.


I have to admit i'd be bold and drop BOTH Kulusevski AND Son for our next match. Harsh on Son perhaps but we do need more pressing for Richarlison and perhaps Son can take advantage later on in the game vs more tired legs..that's if we're not already 3-0 down lol

Can not even Harvey White contribute creatuvely, i wonder?
Sigh...

 

[Raziel]

Yeah, the drop-off in Kulusevski is quite shocking. Having him with Kane and Son certainly used to work but i think either his injury has set him back or teams have worked him out and the coaches are not adjusting our gameplan for this.
I do wonder if Son's drop-off has shielded Kulusevski from a lot more scrutiny...but he's clearly not the only player who has dropped levels in the last few months.


I have to admit i'd be bold and drop BOTH Kulusevski AND Son for our next match. Harsh on Son perhaps but we do need more pressing for Richarlison and perhaps Son can take advantage later on in the game vs more tired legs..that's if we're not already 3-0 down lol

Can not even Harvey White contribute creatuvely, i wonder?
Sigh...

Kulu is definitely off, both physically (he gets pushed off the ball a lot more now, injury?) and his shooting, he's lost that cut in shot (off target repeatedly recently), I wouldn't play him.
Son I'd play next game because unlike under Conte he's starting to look a player again, that said, I'd sub him at 60-70 minutes regardless. But I could see starting him from bench