Nearly Club? Only For Pessimists

[parklane1]

Also....




....fantastic!

Where are our medals for all of those great things?

Jamie Carragher, a former player (albeit a professional git) himself, put it best when he said that, at the end of the day, players still care about winning things in their careers, whatever they may be. When you get to a new dressing room, it isn't 'oh, how did you improve yourself over the last two seasons?', it's 'show us your medals - what have you got?'. Gary Neville agreed with his assessment to an extent when he said that we need to win something to actualize this progress we're making - FA Cup, Europa League, whatever. He only disagreed when pointing out that our circumstances mean we're doing well to challenge, never mind win things.

If you're bored of the 'Spurs need to win a trophy stuff', wait till our players sod off because they haven't won any and then go through awkward pauses in their later interviews when their time at Spurs is brought up. 'Oh, we had some great years. You know, we could have won things, we came close. But we had some great years.'

Somewhat mystifying, that stance. Again, don't mean to be disrespectful or anything. But it's just a bit baffling to me, is all.

Nice one Dubai.

Anyone who has played at a decent level ( and i am not just talking about pro football) want's to win things. During my life i have never met a player ( who has played at a decent level) who does not want to win a medal and then takes great pride in showing them off.

I despair when i hear fans decrying ANY trophy win as not being a good one, i can only assume that most ( if not all) of them have never played at a level where they and the rest of their team mates were good enough to win things, if that is the case then in all honesty they do not know what they are talking about when they say players do not care about winning any trophy.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Nice one Dubai.

Anyone who has played at a decent level ( and i am not just talking about pro football) want's to win things. During my life i have never met a player ( who has played at a decent level) who does not want to win a medal and then takes great pride in showing them off.

I despair when i hear fans decrying ANY trophy win as not being a good one, i can only assume that most ( if not all) of them have never played at a level where they and the rest of their team mates were good enough to win things, if that is the case then in all honesty they do not know what they are talking about when they say players do not care about winning any trophy.

But there are undeniably scales of achievement baked in to each of those trophies. Is a player going to brag about winning the League Cup? What about the Community Shield? What about the Peace Cup?

I''m not for one second saying trophies aren't important, and there is a case to be made that The FA Cup is a real good one to win. But essentially it's in large part down to luck of the draw. The PL and the CL are the trophies the players will really brag to each other about. And playing a European game on a Wednesday night at the Bernabeu is going to be much more preferable to jetting off to Russia to play FC Rostov on a Thursday evening.

I wouldn't for one second be happy if in 5 years we've won absolutely nothing, but it's pretty clear to see we are building a platform to consistently challenge for the league, and have been the only team doing that over the last two years. Bearing in mind we really have no right to be anywhere like 2nd place, let alone 1st, it's a phenomenal achievement. But even taking that away, we simply look a better side than all the other teams bar Chelsea right now (and even then there is a case to be made that we are there with them considering their lack of Europe). What exactly is 'nearly' about our club right now? We compete. We got 86 points. We scored the most and conceded the least. No one called Man United a nearly club when they finished 3rd one season, or second and Aguero scored that goal in the final minute. Why should we be tarred with that brush? Because of where we came from? Because we had years of getting pipped to 4th by Arsenal on the final day? So what? Doesn't that make what we are doing now even more fantastic? And it isn't over yet.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Surely a nearly club is one that actually accepts second best

I've always said when a club starts the season the aim has to be to win everything available to them otherwise their effectively stealing a place in the league by not competing. Obviously there aren't many trophies to go round but if you don't aim to win them then don't enter them

We IMO threw the league cup by playing a weakened side and it cost us - our fault, no excuses. We tried to win every other competition and didn't but had a proper go. If we threw league games to prioritise a cup game I'd be gutted personally, similarly if we only performed once the pressure was off I'd not be happy. Yet sides that have done just that have won the lesser trophies. What they will suffer from though is that they have created a mind set of second best is good enough IMO.... but of course they will blow ££££ to fix their problems

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Well, I'll take up the customary role as a contrarian to general opinion here and say that I can see where he's coming from...sort of.

Let's look at us from the time he joined us in 2007. Forget the barren 2000's and 1990's prior to that, because footballers don't tend to think of the ultra long-term in that manner. Just think of the ten-odd years he's been here.

In 2007-2008, we won the Carling Cup. It felt like we were on the verge of something. We had a truly magnificent strike force up top, and only needed a more robust midfield and defence (alongside a more mentally strong unit as a whole - one that didn't give up on the season in March) to go on to big things.

2008-2009 - We lost that strike partnership that summer. Got to the Carling Cup final again in 2008-2009 under Harry. Lost to United. Finished 8th.

2009-2010 - Spent a load of money in January 2009 and the summer of 2010. Had a great league season. Finished 4th. Got to the FA Cup semi-final, but lost, unbelievably, to relegated Portsmouth.

2010-2011 - got to the quarter finals of the CL before being thumped by Real Madrid. Finished 5th - looked capable of repeating our CL qualification late on, but fell away in the end.

2011-2012 - got to 4th, but missed out on the CL after a mid-season collapse and Chelsea winning the CL in one of the most unfortunate circumstances in recent footballing memory - one that was rectified afterwards, so we were the only club which would ever suffer under those unique circumstances. Got to the FA Cup semi-final, but lost, to Chelsea.

2012-2013 - had a great league season, our highest ever points total prior to this year - but juuuuust lost out to Arsenal for that final CL spot.

2013-2014 - aimless drifting. Spent a buttload of money from the Bale sale on players we thought would win us the league. They didn't. 'Spurs will always let you down', came Roy Keane's jibe.

2014-2015 - first season under Poch. Inconsistent, fun to watch, managed to finish 5th. Got to the CC final, but lost to Chelsea.

2015-2016 - Second season under Poch. Fun to watch, mostly consistent, but a horrible end to the season removed any lingering hopes of the title and let Arsenal finish above us again (which they'd been doing for the entirety of the past nine years, incidentally) on the final day.

2016-2017 - third season under Poch. Magnificent to watch, ruthlessly consistent, record points tally by an enormous margin, *still* lost out on the title to an even more consistent Chelsea side, lost in the FA Cup semi final to that same Chelsea side, were ingloriously dumped out of the CL and then lost to Gent in the EL. And, after a season where all the boys said the next step was winning a trophy, we ended up sitting on our hands watching United win the EL and CC, Arsenal with the FA Cup and Chelsea win the league.


As fans, it's easy for us to discard Rose's opinions as so much tattle because of the past three years under Poch bringing gradual progress and a stadium on the horizon. But, even if you ignore the terrible 90's and early-to-mid 2000's, the decade Rose has spent with us has been full - chock full of the sort of chokes, bottles and valiant 'nearly' finishes that signify challenging but not quite succeeding. Them's the facts. So it isn't surprising when Rose mentions us as a 'nearly' club given the way his spell here has gone - and I feel like all you chaps are being a bit disingenuous (no disrespect intended, of course) in talking about why it's *okay* to be a nearly club now (as @Gutter Boy did, for example) rather than contesting his assertion that we are one. Just my two cents.

It's all about the Group Think.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think Rose is probably summing up his time as a player and he is in fairness allowed to reflect on his time at the club, I don't think he was taking a broad stroke at the club.

To be fair the reflection is also one of himself and I think he knows that, his comment were probably served as a driver to do more, want more, win.

We are who we are and if you have to give it a name yeah we are a nearly club, but from Levy to Poch down they are working hard to change that mindset

THis clubs attitude today is not one I have seen since the late 80s for a short spell and before that since Bill Nic

 

[JerusalemMan]

What would either of those two know about getting to a new dressing room...?

I imagine they were fairly instrumental in creating the dressing room reception for plenty of new players.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Thank you to both BrainOfLevy and DubaiSpur for sparkling enunciation of the two opposing sides of the coin here. Both have merit.

 

[Aldo]

Sir Tom Finney, Johnny Haynes, Len Shackleton, Matt Le Tissier, Clive Allen, Stuart Pearce, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, Tim Cahill, Jermain Defoe, Les Ferdinand, Socrates.

Not one major domestic or international medal between them.

Medals don't define a successful and rewarding career.

 

[Spur of the moment]

I still have a vivid memory of being utterly mesmirised by an ageing Len Shackleton at the Lane as he danced and dummied his way through the Tottenham defence as though it wasn't there.

He was playing for Sunderland at the time but I no longer remember whether it led to a goal, just that little piece of magic. I remember also a roar going up, a sense of wonder if you like, as he weaved his way through our brittle defence.

I was about eleven at the time and the only other thing I remember about it was that we lost.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Don't be baffled, just reserve judgement. Poch has overseen an enourmous shift in the way our club operates, behaves and plays. We now spend one season 'homeless' before returning to a brilliant new stadium. And I will bet you right here, right now that Kane, Alli, Jan, Toby, Hugo, Christian, Victor and Eric (of the 'big boys') will ALL both want to, and will, run out at the new Lane for that first home game of the season. IF at the end of THAT season there has been no silverware then I would agree, break-up is a potential issue.

But not before.

Well, we'll see, and I certainly don't mean to demean Poch's efforts or the team's commitment - they gave absolutely everything this season, and although they couldn't make the final step, they destroyed a lot of mental hoodoos. As for players staying for the new stadium's arrival, personally, I would agree on all of them bar Toby and Alli. Toby is at the perfect age for one last big payday at a superclub, and he's definitely good enough to start at all of them - Barca, Bayern, Madrid, wherever. Alli..well, if we struggle at Wembley, he doesn't really strike me as the type to prioritize sentimentality over career progression. He chose us over Liverpool despite him being a 'Pool fan - that seems a bit more indicative of his level-headed approach to these things.

As I said, the trophies that actually mean something are the Premier League and the Champions League. When the players say they want to win trophies, I assume they are the two they are referring to.

Not necessarily. The PL and the CL, in prestige terms, will trump other trophies - but any trophies will trump no trophies every time, whatever their shape, size or significance.

I'm right there with you, the players want trophies, and I get that. But to me, the trophies that mean something are the PL and CL. We've looked like the team most likely to win the PL over the last two years. Emirates Marketing Project haven't. Liverpool haven't. Man United and Arsenal most certainly haven't. If we are a nearly club, they are in some discussion that doesn't even warrant a mention.

Again, I think the players would prefer any trophies over finishing trophyless, whatever their other preferences in terms of the PL or CL. A cup is a sign of victory, a medal is a medal - one that shows that you went all the way in a particular competition. No one will remember that Arsenal beat Lincoln and Sutton to get to the FA Cup semis this year - they will remember that they won it. Equally, they will remember that we came close but ended up empty-handed in every competition we entered - the fact that we finished second in an undeniably glorious blaze of relentlessness will ultimately mean little beyond the fact that we finished second. That's just how it works, unfortunately.

As for City, Liverpool, United and Arsenal, the inconvenient truth is that, although they haven't inspired in terms of the PL over the last couple of years, they have pretty regularly won trophies to keep the cupboard full and their images as big clubs competing on multiple fronts roughly intact. That, and, in Liverpool, United and Arsenal's cases, they have enormous histories to back up the notion that them winning things is the norm and not the exception. While City have the cash to enforce that same image. We have neither, unfortunately. Which is also why we're never really taken seriously as contenders, although that's a separate discussion.

We finished second, but not a limp to second like Arsenal last year. A second which was 'damn did you see how good Spurs were all season long!? Harsh on them to not win the title'. We were great. And we are building a team to consistently challenge for the league, the domestic trophy which is an undeniable proof of consistent excellence all season long. The fact we are doing this with our budget and our history of being a nearly/nowhere club in the Jol/Harry/AVB/Tim years seems irrelevant to you, but it does make the achievement even more remarkable to me too.

Again, nobody will remember that it was harsh on us that we missed out - they will remember that we couldn't cross the finish line. Again, just the way it is. Only we will remember how great we were - nobody else will, and I doubt the players will care in the end. As for coming a long way from the Harry, Jol, AVB or Tim years, it's somewhat irrelevant because it doesn't speak much for our ability to cross the finish line in terms of winning something. We couldn't then. We couldn't now. So the progression, in that strictly defined sense, is less pertinent than it first appears.

And again, every single player we have has improved beyond recognition and is playing the best football of their career. No, we haven't gotten them a nice shiny League Cup or the European booby prize to show for it, but we've set our sights higher. We are competing for the title, and have been the only team doing that, while competing in Europe, over the last 2 years. It's a fantastic acheivement and again, if anyone thinks we are a nearly club given all of that, I wouldn't mourn their sale.

The players playing the best football of their careers will only value that in the sense that it will help them get better deals, here or elsewhere. Otherwise it's back to the same roundabout - what have you got to show for all that improvement?

 

[DubaiSpur]

Good on you Dubai and long may you remain the contrarian.

Thanks, mate.

Speaking for my self, it's not that I don't want us to win a trophy, I really yearn for one, but I am willing to be patient. There is something that doesn't feel right to belittle this teams magnificent season because we are judging it through the prism of other teams, Chelsea aside, having succeeded in winning less challenging tournaments than the one we went for.

Sure, I completely get that - I'm not suggesting that you don't want us to win a trophy or anything, and it definitely feels more than a little ungrateful to bring up our lack of silverware after such a great season. But that's the unfortunate fact of football life - teams are judged as much by what they won as they are by how they won them. Winning being the key in both instances - playing pretty or relentless but never winning things won't get you remembered in the long run. It's the difference between us and Wet Spam - we both like to claim the mantle of the great entertainers, but the public takes our claim a lot more seriously than theirs precisely because they're a tinpot nothing outfit and we're not. What differentiates us? Trophies.

We went for the title -to win it, not finish second. As you know great teams are measured by their league title wins not FA cups not League cups or Europa league wins. I am not saying I would not celebrate winning one of those tournaments but if we are in a position to it is right to go for the league over all other tournaments given our squad is not yet good enough to challenge on multiple fronts. That is the very essence of Bill Nick's " it is better to fail aiming high than to succeed aiming low".

I'm not entirely sure that's true, to be honest - at least, the bit about the league titles. What was the centrepiece of our story prior to the 2000's? That we were the cup kings, the historically dominant FA Cup side, the entertainers who sought the tempestuous flashes of brilliance that epitomised cup runs over the steady-burn solidity that won titles. Arsenal, United and Chelsea then went on to unseat us in that regard - we are no longer anything special in the cup that was once defined by our adventures in it. But what still differentiates us from Arsenal is that we have a European history that they don't - we were the first British side to win a European cup of any kind, and we have two UEFA Cups to their lonely Cup Winners' Cup in the 90's.

All that speaks to the idea that trophies have an intrinsic value in terms of defining histories - one that's perhaps being undervalued by an insistence on league titles over cups. Are the former more prestigious and historically significant than the latter?Definitely. But *how* much more historically significant they are is a matter of debate, given that we've managed to build a relatively formidable legend as a footballing outfit without them (or, at least, without more than two of them).

So if Spurs are to win the league we need to achieve 90 points or more. Seeing as we had been hovering between 70-72 points to then achieve 86 points was incredible. Psychologically that puts us in a great position to go for our target. In the players and Poch's minds it is now achievable. We can be a top team that other teams fear. Or we can go back to being a team that wins the odd cup but don't really amount to much in the big tournaments, like Arsenal have become.

What we should be celebrating is that we are becoming a force to be reckoned with. A team who you will have to beat to win the title. A team with multiple £20million possibly £30million players. That is the first time in my 37 years supporting Spurs.

The point about Arsenal is losing a bit of steam, to be honest. They've won three FA Cups in four years - I'm not sure we can go *back* to being such a team, given that we haven't been like that in more than a quarter of a century. That achievement is still head and shoulders over what we currently are, silverware-wise.

We are definitely becoming a force to be reckoned with, but that does not mean we will be remembered as such when this era concludes if we have little to show for it. That's why even the FA Cups that Arsenal are hoovering up have an intrinsic value in that regard - they help immortalize the teams that won them in the club's history and in English football history more broadly, even if the prestige of it has faded in recent years. It still allows them to be remembered by more than just their own fans *of that generation*.

A final point, we should not be beholden to our players. If they want to leave so be it, winning a trophy will not necessarily keep them at the club as we saw all too painfully with Berba and Keane. Leicester won the title and still lost Ngolo Kante to Chelsea. There will always be bigger fish ready to hoover up our players. We must however remain focused on our target and not lose Pochettino.

Sure, we'll survive the loss of players far, far more comfortably than we will the loss of Poch at this stage. I'm in full agreement there. But I suspect we can mitigate the risk of both those possibilities by *winning* something - our circumstances mean that it will have more meaning than winning something the way Keane and Berba did (even if I'm still of the opinion that winning something in that manner would *still* be preferable to not winning anything ).

Thank you to both BrainOfLevy and DubaiSpur for sparkling enunciation of the two opposing sides of the coin here. Both have merit.

No probs, mate. Happy to provide a bit of an alternate viewpoint to spark discussion - equally happy to have it eloquently challenged by @BrainOfLevy .

 

[thfcsteff]

Thank you to both BrainOfLevy and DubaiSpur for sparkling enunciation of the two opposing sides of the coin here. Both have merit.

Agreed. It is everything we hope for in discussions here methinks.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Not necessarily. The PL and the CL, in prestige terms, will trump other trophies - but any trophies will trump no trophies every time, whatever their shape, size or significance.

I certainly don't disagree that our players would prefer to be winning trophies, who wouldn't?
But (genuine question) do you think our elite players would take winning a domestic cup over being able to play European football (especially CL) in the following season? I'm not so sure they would, not all of them. Obviously our fantastic showing in the league this season makes that no more than a hypothetical scenario. But if we did win a trophy and finished outside the top 4, I think we'd risk seeing more players angling for a move. Happy to have a medal under their belts, sure. But elite players will want to play in elite competitions.
Fortunately we are almost there with the formula and hopefully next year will see us do both.
I'm just not convinced that any trophy whatsoever trumps no trophy, if it's combined with losing out on Europe. Not when you are talking about CL level players. Maybe once we are more established as a top 4 club then a trophy would be consolation for a seemingly temporary league slip-up. But I don't think we are quite there yet.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Alli..well, if we struggle at Wembley, he doesn't really strike me as the type to prioritize sentimentality over career progression. He chose us over Liverpool despite him being a 'Pool fan - that seems a bit more indicative of his level-headed approach to these things.

According to reports he was all set to go to Liverpoo but their American owners slammed the door on him, baulking at paying out for a kid from a League 1 club.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...le-alli-ian-ayre-alexis-sanchez-a7704866.html

 

[parklane1]

Not necessarily. The PL and the CL, in prestige terms, will trump other trophies - but any trophies will trump no trophies every time, whatever their shape, size or significance.
?

I don't know how to use the like button.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Well, we'll see, and I certainly don't mean to demean Poch's efforts or the team's commitment - they gave absolutely everything this season, and although they couldn't make the final step, they destroyed a lot of mental hoodoos. As for players staying for the new stadium's arrival, personally, I would agree on all of them bar Toby and Alli. Toby is at the perfect age for one last big payday at a superclub, and he's definitely good enough to start at all of them - Barca, Bayern, Madrid, wherever. Alli..well, if we struggle at Wembley, he doesn't really strike me as the type to prioritize sentimentality over career progression. He chose us over Liverpool despite him being a 'Pool fan - that seems a bit more indicative of his level-headed approach to these things.



Not necessarily. The PL and the CL, in prestige terms, will trump other trophies - but any trophies will trump no trophies every time, whatever their shape, size or significance.



Again, I think the players would prefer any trophies over finishing trophyless, whatever their other preferences in terms of the PL or CL. A cup is a sign of victory, a medal is a medal - one that shows that you went all the way in a particular competition. No one will remember that Arsenal beat Lincoln and Sutton to get to the FA Cup semis this year - they will remember that they won it. Equally, they will remember that we came close but ended up empty-handed in every competition we entered - the fact that we finished second in an undeniably glorious blaze of relentlessness will ultimately mean little beyond the fact that we finished second. That's just how it works, unfortunately.

As for City, Liverpool, United and Arsenal, the inconvenient truth is that, although they haven't inspired in terms of the PL over the last couple of years, they have pretty regularly won trophies to keep the cupboard full and their images as big clubs competing on multiple fronts roughly intact. That, and, in Liverpool, United and Arsenal's cases, they have enormous histories to back up the notion that them winning things is the norm and not the exception. While City have the cash to enforce that same image. We have neither, unfortunately. Which is also why we're never really taken seriously as contenders, although that's a separate discussion.



Again, nobody will remember that it was harsh on us that we missed out - they will remember that we couldn't cross the finish line. Again, just the way it is. Only we will remember how great we were - nobody else will, and I doubt the players will care in the end. As for coming a long way from the Harry, Jol, AVB or Tim years, it's somewhat irrelevant because it doesn't speak much for our ability to cross the finish line in terms of winning something. We couldn't then. We couldn't now. So the progression, in that strictly defined sense, is less pertinent than it first appears.



The players playing the best football of their careers will only value that in the sense that it will help them get better deals, here or elsewhere. Otherwise it's back to the same roundabout - what have you got to show for all that improvement?

I will struggle with quoating formatting on my phone so I'll try and make some succinct responses.

If any trophy trumps no trophy, regardless of significance, what do you think players would prefer out of the following:

- 5 League Cups in a row and 5 5th places finishes in a row over the next 5 years.

- 5 runners up placings in a row over the next 5 years.

Making an extreme point but I would argue finishing runners up denotes playing a better quality of football more consistently, would include CL participation and big games and would do more for players self worth than 5 League Cups.

Obviously it's a silly choice, and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. We are way exceeding expectations based on realistically what we can expect. Some players will be happy, some won't. But I don't think trophies, regardless of which ones they are, are the be all and end all. If we are consistently making genuine title challenge and playing in massive CL games, that's where players want to compete. You can't tell me they'd swap it for a League Cup. And as such, I don't think we 'need' trophies to prove how well we are doing.

Besides, football is an imperfect game. Sometimes the best team loses. Sometimes a tactical decision can either pay off massively or leave a manager looking like a fool. All we can do is keep doing what we are doing, which , considering where we came from, is a huge achievement.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

As for Liverpool, Man United etc winning things to keep their perception going...that's all well and good for them, but we are building. It's a fundamentally different set of objectives we are living by. We can't change that. Nor should we care.

 

[billyiddo]

I don't know how to use the like button.

Do you think our players would have preferred to finish outside of the european places in the league if it meant they got a league cup winners medal over challenging for the title and missing out? And do you think they'd be more inclined to stay at a club finishing 7th or lower if they won the league cup?


That's the acid test really, had we finished 7th and won the league cup I think we'd have a much higher chance of losing our players than if we challenge for the league title and miss out - which would show that the players rank being competitive in the league over domestic cups

 

[Spur of the moment]

When you look back to the start of last season Emirates Marketing Project were strongest favourites to win silverware yet they ended up with nothing. So it's not as though jumping ship for another club will necessarily guarantee a trophy.

By finishing runners-up this season we've shown we are as well placed as any to win a trophy next season. So the message is, don't miss out, stick with Tottenham and do your bit to help us ensure you get your winner's medal(s) come May 2018.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Did the great players remain at City in the 2015/2016 season after just winning the league cup???

I'm gonna speculate that they stayed as their getting paid silly money and they had the carrot of a very hyped and well respected manager coming...

We have a manager who IMO is doing more with less is is at least as good and we will shortly have a new stadium that will be the best in the land. The missing ingredient is we can't yet pay the top dollar that the top players command.