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Moussa Sissoko
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I must confess that I am even starting to bore myself.... I reckon Scara is just getting going however. 
I must confess that I am even starting to bore myself.... I reckon Scara is just getting going however.
So it purely financial?
Ok let's follow that thread of thought How many points in your opinion does he cost us across a season? If he is as dog brick as some of you think he must cost us significant points. So how many?
People are saying he is awful... If he is awful it would be relatively easy to replace for someone better. Even if only a little better
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That's all quite reasonable. So what you saying is that he is not dog brick, not detrimental to the team but someone we can and should look to upgrade on when we have the chance.
But his level of performance is such, (although not up to desired standard) is good enough for us to not be in a desperate hurry to do so.
If that's your stance, thats not entirel unreasonable
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
Yeah I do wonder about the cost to UK economic productivity by this thread existing.Anyone else feel like this debate has exhausted itself? Noone is budging, and quite clearly noone is going to budge
My stance is that Sissoko has shown enough, proven over time that he has little to nothing to offer at our level.
He even proved it before we bought him. Look at the compilation of his hyped performance in the Euro final against portugal. No end product. Which he has confirmed at spurs for 1.5 years.
His strengths are too few, and his weaknesses are too massive. He hinders the flow of our attack. His work rate is questionable. Offensively, having Sissoko on the field is only slightly better than playing a man down.
Nevertheless, I totally understand why he isn't replaced ASAP. In the meanwhile, Poch tries to get the best out of a bad asset, until he can be replaced. Which means we have a freeloader playing in our midfield. Starting Sissoko means that we put a ball and chain around the leg of our offensive players.
90291Spur
Paul Walsh
Perhaps Sissoko can take out South Korean citizenship and then choose to do his military service. I’m sure you’d be cool with that.
Actually I wouldn't. As brick as he is, he cost us £30m and he's got no right to deprive us of the opportunity to recoup it.
90291Spur
Paul Walsh
Even though as a hypothetically proud South Korean citizen who hypothetically feels a hyrpotehtical sense of duty to his newly-adopted country it would over-showdown (hypothetically) is actually contract with us?
You blatantly contradict yourself then. "Barely better than playing with a man less" and "ball and chain around the leg of our offensive players"
Makes a mockery of your previous list. Because if he is as bad as you say then he should absolutely be replaced in the team at the earliest opportunity.... yet it's almost the end of Jan and he hasn't. Your previous list only makes sense, if in fact he is actually nowhere near as bad as you say.
How much is a handful? How about opportunity cost? Give me a actual number If you would be so kind
yes, offensively he is rubbish and hinders the team, slows the rhythm down with his awful passing and positional awareness. but the manpower is needed to do good offensive pressing.
Yes, he should absolutely be replaced in the team at the earliest opportunity. However, Levy does not accept a loss, so here we stand. £20M left on his fee to Saudi Sportswashing Machine and £80-95k per week in wages. This is the reason why he hasn't been replaced. Nobody wants him and we don't want to lose money. So Poch has to do the best he can with Sissoko, which is to instruct him to stay back, don't sprint forward, play short passes sideways and stand still and watch capable players like Son do their magic.
Levy wants his money back -> Sissoko stays as there are no takers.
There are far too many variables to calculate an unknown in football such as "what is Sissoko were actually a footballer?"
I don't think it's unfair to assume the difference between a top player and a brick one can be as much as 5-10 points in a season, so an average one would probably be half of that.
Opportunity cost is only relevant if you are happy to make an exception that on this occasion we buy before we sell. Fiscal responsibility will be worth a lot more over the longer run than one season of switching out Sissoko for a footballer. This is far from the first time Levy will have had the opportunity to make an exception to his methods but I've yet to see him do that.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I'm genuinely curious as to why for players like Dier and Wanyama, who can occasionally ping a pass but more often than not play it short like everyone else on the team, they are excused. They are allowed to play it short and quick. But Sissoko, absolutely not. The fact that he passes short and quick (and therefore doesn't slow the team down) is held up as this example that he isn't a footballer. Again, it's the myth Poch is referring to. Last season, yes, picking the ball up in advanced positions because he started higher, he was bad. A role he had never played (because Saudi Sportswashing Machine were more often on the counter, where he did do well), and we then changed it up. This season, he's been doing absolutely fine in the diamond or as one of the two in the deeper position. Pass completion stats completely up there with the rest of the team. Good contributions to some dominating performances and big wins. But Dier, Wanyama and Dembele are all excused. Their passing is - if we are to read this thread - a level beyond. I will say, you get more long balls out of Dier, you get more dribbles out of Dembele, and you occasionally get a good burst forward from Wanyama (but never a creative pass). So you get those slight additions, because they are different players. With Sissoko, you get more regular bursts forward from deep and very rarely does he lose the ball as much as the others, and never loses it in as dangerous positions.
You'd think a player that had a poor start (and got no sympathy for completely missing pre-season under a manager that is notoriously hard to adapt to without one.) (and got no sympathy for playing in a position he was completely unsuited to because he'd never really played an AMR position in a possession based team - maybe he didn't need sympathy but other players had they cost less and been better at PR maybe would have gotten more understanding, which objectively speaking should be doable because he is our player, he is working hard and the fee isn't his fault) but worked hard to change his fortunes here would be celebrated, at least to a small extent. Again - no one has said he is an unbelievably unique footballer or someone we can't upgrade. But the alternative side is 'he is not a footballer' which is just blatantly nonsense.
There is this myth that he can't play football because of his first few games for us. And people are still using that to color their opinion of what he is doing right now, even when he is doing much better.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
It's actually laughable - the idea that we were not only forced to stick with Sissoko at the club because we absolutely couldn't send him anywhere, but also that we've just had to trust him in big, important game because there has been no-one else.
Firstly, we could have loaned him out. IF he was as bad as the naysayers would believe, he would have been banished to the reserves for making a mockery of what it means to be a first team player for this club. He would be no where near getting a game. And we would have told him in no uncertain terms that now the first summer transfer window he has as a Spurs player is upon us, he is never going to get anywhere near the first team again. And if he really wanted to take that risk, in a world cup year, he could have run it. But what would have more than likely happened (if we couldn't find a buyer, which is likely considering how high his fee was), is we would have loaned him out. We would have done that because Sissoko playing first team football absolutely anywhere else and not rotting in our reserves would give us a greater chance of getting our money back than keeping him here. There is no barrier to us doing that - we offered him the chance to look for a club and said if he stays he'll have to compete for a new role. He did that. If we really wanted him gone, we would have absolutely gotten him out, he wouldn't have been offered a route back at all. After all, he's terrible, we don't want him near our team, and we would need to tell him that so his agent made sure he got him a move in a world cup year.
Secondly, if we was as bad as is being made out, we absolutely wouldn't have let Onomah go. A player riding high on winning the World Cup, a player that has shown some talent in first team training and believing he is now at the right stage to play first team football. Injury problems over the summer to Winks, Dembele, Wanyama. Sissoko apparently being so bad, such a laughable excuse for a footballer that his team-mates won't even pass to him. With all of that considered, this should be Josh's time. Sure, he may have to compete with Dier and a returning Winks and Dembele is always going to get minutes, but that's the perfect amount of cover for a young player that wants opportunities but also wants the pressure to be taken off of him when appropriate. He also shines in a deeper midfield role when previously he'd been competing with the Eriksen's and Dele's of this world in the attacking 4. And yet......we let Onomah go. Why? We could have easily loaned Sissoko out instead, and gave Onomah minutes this year. If Sissoko was as bad as is being made out of course, which he isn't.
BrainOfLevy:
please comment the compilation of him from this season. Linked 4 times. How much worth are his quick bursts forward? 0:40 and 1:40, 1:50 are some highlights of his abillity. Also comment why the compilations cut before so many times just before his crosses. Should any player be able to do better regardless of the team's play style?
You say regular bursts. Please comment the goal Alli scored against Swansea. footage also linked in this thread. Keep in mind Sissoko came on with fresh legs. How is his work rate, did you say?
Regular bursts... Also comment Sissoko's contribution against Newport where he literally stood still watching first Wanyama and then Son. Is standing still and watching hard work? Feel free to look at their goal as well. How was his positioning and what did he do? Hint: he stood still watching the situation unfold, which is his habit. yes, he could not prevent the goal.
Please comment his technique for France against Belarus. Please comment his end product against Portugal. Links provided in thread.
Do you think a PL footballer should regularly show better ability with the ball than what Sissoko shows in those videos?
To answer your question again. Wanyama and Dier are excused, because they are match winner types. Sissoko has never been a match winner, and will never be one.
please comment the compilation of him from this season. Linked 4 times. How much worth are his quick bursts forward? 0:40 and 1:40, 1:50 are some highlights of his abillity. Also comment why the compilations cut before so many times just before his crosses. Should any player be able to do better regardless of the team's play style?
You say regular bursts. Please comment the goal Alli scored against Swansea. footage also linked in this thread. Keep in mind Sissoko came on with fresh legs. How is his work rate, did you say?
Regular bursts... Also comment Sissoko's contribution against Newport where he literally stood still watching first Wanyama and then Son. Is standing still and watching hard work? Feel free to look at their goal as well. How was his positioning and what did he do? Hint: he stood still watching the situation unfold, which is his habit. yes, he could not prevent the goal.
Please comment his technique for France against Belarus. Please comment his end product against Portugal. Links provided in thread.
Do you think a PL footballer should regularly show better ability with the ball than what Sissoko shows in those videos?
To answer your question again. Wanyama and Dier are excused, because they are match winner types. Sissoko has never been a match winner, and will never be one.
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BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Again, I just want to make the point that out of all the coverage on Poch's Sissoko presser, you are the only are out of here, Reddit, Twitter, and other Spurs fansites that I have read that has picked up on this 'right now' quote as anything other than meaningless. I encourage you to read Dan KP's Twitter as he was actually in the room when the question was asked, and reported on it in the tone that it was intended: https://twitter.com/Dan_KP
Infact, the words that you are hanging the rest of your argument on are so meaningless, they don't even appear quotes in the SkySports report of the article: http://www.skysports.com/football/n...st-important-players-says-mauricio-pochettino, or the ESPN article, written by Dan Kilpatrick: http://www.espn.com/soccer/tottenha...of-tottenhams-key-players-mauricio-pochettino
'Right now' means absolutely nothing, because Dier is fit, Wanyama is back, Dembele has been playing the last few games, and we loaned out Onamah who could quite easily be here if he was capable. And this is only if we assume that 'Right now' refers to those other players who play in the pivot. He could just as easily be saying that Sissoko right now is the ONLY player in THE SQUAD capable of being this transition player (because the other afforementioned deeper midfielders sans Winks are all fit now, so why would he not be counting them unless Sissoko was unqiue?) and that until he is able to sign another Sissoko, this Moussa is going to continue to get games. It is so meaningless that it could just as easily be taken my way as yours.
Poch knows exactly what he was doing - he was trying to talk Sissoko up and make it clear that he has been adding value to the team this season and deserves more credit. The entire tone of his comments, and importantly the way they have been reported by people in the room, suggest this. There was no qualifying that he wishes he had another player or anything like that. He does know his PR, he is well trained in the media, as all PL managers are, and they know exactly what they need to say to create the headlines. In 20 minutes of Q+A, he knew that he wanted one of the big take aways to be that Sissoko gets his praise. He is not both doing that, AND trying to temper his statement at all. Why would he?
Look at the other quotes: "There is no other player in the team who can provide that. This is the best quality he provides to the team. The team needs that balance nowadays. He has been one of our most important players.".
The Spurs manager believes Sissoko has struggled to shake a poor first impression, adding: "We create myths. I do too! Like you [the media].
"Sometimes we all create myths but most of the times we are not clinical or honest in the way we assess things. Sometimes you think a way about someone because of first impressions and then they stick forever. I like that you [the media] give credit to him because he is doing very well."
This is not bland PR. This is not meaningless platitude. In fact, this is him potentially risking the ridicule from a certain section of Spurs fans by bringing 'myths' into the conversation. It is deliberately combative language and he is using it to show Sissoko that he is standing up for him, and using it to show the reporters that they should take away in no uncertain terms what his thoughts are. Again, I remain absolutely stunned that you've been able to take his quotes any other way. I mean, please just explain to me why exactly he would both at the same time use combative language to create one headline, and in the same breath try and talk down Sissoko's achievements this season? What exactly would be the point? It doesn't make sense.
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As for the rest, Poch has tried to lean on some tactical reasoning but it has proved to be beyond the comprehension of most fans. But I think he does have an important role (I will never understand how people say both he isn't a good technical footballer AND he isn't good defensively, because then he really would be no where near the team. I think he is pretty damn good defensively, tactically, positionally, never getting beaten one on one, winning the ball back and giving it simple.
The Carrick debate was interesting because at the time, he was performing a role that fans couldn't relate to. We wanted our holders to be hard tackling Makelele types. Number 4s. That's what we knew and that's what worked. But the way the game was going, Carrick was ahead of his time. Where as before in England we'd never really seen a number 4 never leave his feet and be the person that could launch attacks, and be great positionally, Carrick flipped the whole notion on its head. Then Barca's team and Spanish influence generally became more prominent, and people got it. And we had a few years of players coming over that were great with the ball and not hard tacklers, but performing an important tactical role.
But this was in an era when hard pressing wasn't the order of the day. The tempo was slower. There were not as many high lines (I still remember the stick AVB got for trying to implement his at Chelsea, so this is still very recent in the grand scheme of things). Someone like Carrick - or Huddlestone, GHod rest his soul - could sit in front of the defence in that era, pick the ball up mainly through interceptions and launch attacks from deep. But now, there is a new paradigm and a new role that isn't as fully understood. It's high line, it's pressing all over, it's relentless energy and it's quicker passing. There are less long passes and more quick shifts through the midfield in order to exploit the gaps you can get when you win the ball high up and you're through on goal in 2 passes.
In this era, Carrick probably isn't going to be as great as he used to be unless he adds being a major presser to his game. Huddlestone would massively struggle in a Poch system. Or a Klopp system. Or a Pep system. But Sissoko doesn't. And what you need, and what Poch is referring to when he talks about players that are good in transition, are players like Sissoko (or Dembele, or Winks). Even the number 4 now is not sitting in front of the defence, they are seeking to win the ball back relatively high up. The partner to the 4 in the pivot therefore needs to serve a role where they can help drive the team up the pitch, get the best players on the ball through quick passing but when the ball is lost and the team is high, be alert to danger and stop it before it happens. They will never be the furthest forward or the biggest contributors to the attack (although they may find themselves in advanced positions from time to time), but they also won't ever be the furthers midfielder back a lot of the time. But they need to be the link between the two, getting the team up, and being one of the first down when the situation changes. And it isn't easy, because the game is so fast paced now that you need to know what shape you're in at all times, because the attacking players need to think about getting free, and you need to think about both helping the team get up the pitch but being the first person to understand if there is a risk. So that's why I think Sissoko is strong tactically, strong positionally, and yes, strong because his physicality enables us to play a high tempo, high pressure game. He can't lace the boots of a Carrick technically, but neither can Wanyama, neither can Dier, and Dembele also lacks the range of a Carrick. But it isn't about range any more. It isn't about sitting deeper and launching attacks after an interception. It's about forcing mistakes as a team, mostly short passing, exploiting those gaps because that's what our strategy is based around. Sissoko's physicality but also his selfless ability to put the team first is what's so important to us. And I'd argue that's why Onamah isn't yet trusted in the transition role, but Winks is (greater tactical awareness).
The reaction to Carrick was a reaction to the game changing and some players being ahead their time before the general hive mind caught on. And it was a good year into Carrick playing that role that people really got it. I'd never say something as inflammatory as Sissoko is 'ahead of his time' but I think it's similar. His physical attributes and his tactical awareness, and his selflessness, are the reasons we spend a lot of money on him, because we likely knew he'd be a valuable, versatile player in the modern game. He's not an old style holder, he's not an old style deep lying playmaker, he is something of a box to box midfielder that needs a large amount of tactical awarness to succeed in the modern game. Knowing when to press, when to hold, where danger is going to happen, how to position yourself when you have a more rigid role and almost every other player has more freedom to move where they want. These are difficult tactical questions that not every player can answer. I'm pretty sure that's what Poch was getting at but alas, even if he went into more detail people still wouldn't listen.