Moussa Sissoko

[Nifel]

0:15 seconds describes his technique.

at least he doesn't stop and watch his team mates in this video.

I can't believe we signed him because of this performance. So many poor crosses. lots of ball carrying and no end product. the best try was a shot from 30 yards.

 

[Modric THFC]

Not sure if other people have noticed it but players seem to be reluctant to pass him the ball. I see it a number of times where a player has the ball, looks to pass, see's its Sissoko and it seems they think fudge its him i suppose i'm going to have to pass now.

I noticed this back in November but of course according to some you are making it up

www.glory-glory.co.uk/community/threads/moussa-sissoko.8636/page-134#post-981458

I noticed something at the start of the game yesterday and kept my eye out for it during the game.

Whenever our players were in possession and Sissoko was 'on' for a pass, frequenly they looked for a better option. Loads of occasions where a player dallied on it for ages looking around before deciding there was nowhere else to go with it but to Sissoko. The amount of time he was ignored and passed around was ridiculous.

This is why I think he hampered our team yesterday. Not his fault but most of our players think he is gonna give the ball away once he gets it.

This is why he always better with Aurier on the pitch beside him. The two of them combine well.

But this is still not the main problem with Sissoko. We can deal with having a passenger in the team.

It's how he effects the formation. It's how everyone else is moved out of their best position to fit him in to a half decent one for him.

We went on a good run there changing back to 4231. But when Sissoko starts it's always 3 in central midfield or a midfield diamond.

He has very rarely played in a midfield two other than coming on as sub.

We never play well with 3 across midfield.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Absolutely certain.

Poch making the points in a technical manner rather than a qualitative one has a couple of effects. Firstly it discourages discussion in that environment and takes the focus off of Sissoko - something any good manager should do whenever possible. Secondly, it avoids him directly having to make a quote like "Sissoko is a talented footballer" which could just get looped over videos of him passing to the corner flag like "This does not slip" or "I'd fudging love it"

I’d definitely hire you as my lawyer if that is your profession, and I have to commend you on your certainty. Fair play.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I noticed this back in November but of course according to some you are making it up

www.glory-glory.co.uk/community/threads/moussa-sissoko.8636/page-134#post-981458





But this is still not the main problem with Sissoko. We can deal with having a passenger in the team.

It's how he effects the formation. It's how everyone else is moved out of their best position to fit him in to a half decent one for him.

We went on a good run there changing back to 4231. But when Sissoko starts it's always 3 in central midfield or a midfield diamond.

He has very rarely played in a midfield two other than coming on as sub.

We never play well with 3 across midfield.

Covered off the players not passing to
him a couple pages back, but he played in the midfield 2 away to Burnley and we absolutely dominated. He played on the right of a 3 against Madrid but also Everton and West Ham away and we also dominated.

 

[thfcsteff]

Why cant we simply replace him? He is fundamentally a poor footballer in this squad. I see no reason why we couldnt have replaced him with relative ease.

The only reasons I think we havent are two fold, 1) we couldnt get rid of him and 2) We didnt anticipate relying on him.

Otherwise, I agree completely. Poch has worked an absolute miracle to have us where we are with him as a mainstay of our midfield. He should get manager of the year just for that.

I think both your reasons cover everything mate.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

I’d definitely hire you as my lawyer if that is your profession, and I have to commend you on your certainty. Fair play.

Not a lawyer but I spend a chunk of my working life with them, working out the most favourable interpretation of laws and fighting spurious legal cases.

I know we're not going to agree in this case but you'll have to trust me that with pretty much any other maligned player in our history, I'd be on your side. I just can't with Sissoko though - we should have moved past that level of player a decade ago.

 

[Finney Is Back]

That really is it. Clearly I have higher standards for what I think a Spurs player should be at this time. 10-15 years ago, with Sissoko in the side? Id probably be making all the same excuses you are. The team has evolved though, we arent that level of side anymore - and it really shows when Sissoko plays IMO.




There is no unconscious bias. Thats the thing. Im a very pragmatic person, I basically say what I see and I dont get particularly emotive about any player.

Which is why I am frankly baffled as to why there is such a forceful defense of such a limited player. This is nothing like the old Carrick / Jenas kind of talk, Sissoko isnt close to as able as they were.

That’s the thing.... the bias is unconscious so you wouldn’t know.

I ask again. Poch watches every game, multiple times, apparently in incredible detail. Now I would say that Poch has a far greater understanding of football than you and I, would you agree with that?

Now despite Poch being a very highly qualified coach, intelligent and highly analytical he just cannot see how dogbrick Sissoko really is? Or do you think that maybe because you have no football education you simply aren’t aware of the attributes that Poch is looking for his team to have?

I am interested to know whether or not you were a defender of Soldado when he was at the club? Were you a backer or calling him out as being far too poor to wear the shirt?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I subscribe to neither of your schools of thought. So trying to steer the argument to one of your ready made conclusions isnt going to work.

Straight up I think far to much is being read into it.

Id have ignored it were it not for people trying to take it as irrefutable proof of their point of view.

Its PR. Poch says nice and bland things to the press, there is no fuss, no headlines, it works. Thats it, and pretty much all it ever is.

Youve seen it as some kind of vindication, but its really not.

What does he say? Sissoko has been doing a job, an important job, one we've had no one else to do. Thats it, in a nutshell.

The job is important. We need someone fulfilling that role.

Wanyama is not fit. Wanyama is getting back to fitness. Similarly Dembele, who simply isnt right at all. Dier plays virtually every game because we have no choice. Mason hasnt been an option for months. Track our injuries, literally all season Sissoko hasnt had competition for that place.

So he has been our only choice.

If it vindicates anyones point of view, it would be mine for saying he is playing through necessity and not choice.

It might only be one small phrase in the quote, but it is KEY. Without it the whole quote takes a different meaning, the one you want it to. With it? Well, it doesnt quite do the job for you does it? And if he meant the quote as you would prefer, why say that part at all?

But if Sissoko is so utterly gash as you believe then why not just put Foyth in midfield or drop Alli deeper, or bring in one of the under 23s? Are they all completely and utterly useless?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It really doesn’t change what he is saying at all. And you still always refuse to say he has been doing well with the opportunities he has been given, when Poch is clearly trying to say that he does.

And again, if he was so bad as people were making out, he didn’t need to go into tactical detail, he didn’t need to say the myths comment. If he didn’t want to be left relying on Sissoko he could have kept Onamah.

It does, entirely. If Poch was saying all that you want to infer he was, he wouldnt have qualified his statement.

Now, its not me trying to hang an entire argument on meaningless PR, its you - but as you are - you cant just ignore the key part of what he said and interpret it as you wish.

I refuse to say he is doing well? Because he isnt.

Ive said, time and again, Ive no doubt he is doing his best - and credit to him for that.

However, it doesnt change the fact his best is not good enough.

You keep going on about Pochs tactical explanation as if it offers some validation. Sissoko is not doing some mystery role, he is doing the most basic role that can be asked of him. The one where he is the least liability. Thats its. Everyone can see it, it really isnt a mystery.

When all the "Carrick, what does he do?" stuff came up, it was a debate with nuance. People expected a certain style of play in a deep sitting midfielder, and Carrick didnt fit that brief. He did things in a different way. Very little flash, very little bang, it was essentially an education. At that time we were still very early in our development and a player of his class was quite foreign to us. A defensive midfielder that worked by positioning and not slide tackles was strange. Thats why there was debate and it was worth it.

Sissoko? Its not even in the same solar system. He is a completely limited player who is out of his depth and is being used because we have no other option. The only argument really should be whether you think he is "bad" or "really bad".

Is he doing the best he can? Yes. Is it good enough? In odd games, just. In most games, no.

And in the games where he has looked ok, its games where we havent been ourselves. As Scara said, a more deep lying, counter attacking team rather than our usual style. I think it is very telling it is these games where he looks most at home.

And no one is denying last season Sissoko was poor. Can we have a discussion about how well he is performing the role he has been given this season, objectively and without bias? That would be great.

I dont think you have it in you ;o)

Youve so convinced yourself of defending him I doubt you have it in you. "Performing a role" is not the same as "Performing a role well". I think thats where you will find the argument is. Not in defining that role, just in how well its executed. And clearly, many think he simply isnt good enough.

It puts me in mind of Scott Parker. When we first got him he spent half a season patrolling in front of the defence, breaking up anything that came his way, and playing it simple. He didnt cross the half way line, just offered cover. And he was glorious.

Then, once he had settled in, he decided he should be doing more of what modric was doing. Started playing the ball out from the back, carrying it forward, trying to act as fulcrum. And he simply wasnt up to it. I fudging hated watching him in that role.

I think similar of Sissoko. I dont think he is as good as Parker defensively, but were he to be there purely to break things up and give it to someone better, limited to our half of the field, I think he would do well enough. The moment he does more than that is the moment the cracks appear.

However, ultimately, thats how I see us getting the best out of him - thats not the same as saying thats any good for us. I think the team is past that kind of role now, and that really there is no place for Sissoko.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

That’s the thing.... the bias is unconscious so you wouldn’t know.

I ask again. Poch watches every game, multiple times, apparently in incredible detail. Now I would say that Poch has a far greater understanding of football than you and I, would you agree with that?

Now despite Poch being a very highly qualified coach, intelligent and highly analytical he just cannot see how dogbrick Sissoko really is? Or do you think that maybe because you have no football education you simply aren’t aware of the attributes that Poch is looking for his team to have?

I am interested to know whether or not you were a defender of Soldado when he was at the club? Were you a backer or calling him out as being far too poor to wear the shirt?

Drop the unconscious bias nonsense, it really doesnt fly and simply doesnt work in a forum like this.

"You are wrong, because unconsciously you have bias, but you wouldnt know - take my word for it though..."

Come on, youre better than that - flu or no flu ;O)

Soldado? I desperately wanted him to come good. I liked him, I knew just how good he was in Spain, and I really wanted it to work for him. So, yes, to a degree I had patience with him. There came a point, however, where you just had to put your hands up and say "Its not going to happen". So I suppose you could say I was a backer, and then I wasnt.

There was a history of class in his past to give something to hope for. So yes, there was a degree of leniency. At no point though would I say he was good if he wasnt. There were games where I thought he played well, and games where I didnt. I called them as I saw them. And, as I said, eventually it was obvious it just wasnt going to work.

If you are looking to compare to Sissoko, all I can say is that if he starts showing some quality Ill be delighted. Ive said it time and again, Im not so proud I wont say "well done" when I think he has done well. As I said yesterday, Im more pragmatic than emotive, Ill say what I see. Much like the forum - I wont chase you around other threads disagreeing with you because of this thread. If I agree Ill agree, if I dont, I wont. I take each thread on its own merits. Same with players/games.

I think the Poch knows best argument is also flawed. To be clear - he knows more than I ever will - I dont claim to be more knowledgeable and never will. Thats not to say he is infallible either though.

That being said, and as I said up thread - Sissokos role is a simple one. I dont really think there is an argument for suggesting he is doing a lot of subtle or nuanced stuff that goes un noticed.

I maintain he is played simply because we have no other option. Poch is making the best of a bad situation. I think there has been a degree of tinkering to try and accommodate Sissoko so we have the best chance of performing.

I really dont think there is an argument to say Sissoko is performing some super detailed job that the layman couldnt possibly see or understand.

But if Sissoko is so utterly gash as you believe then why not just put Foyth in midfield or drop Alli deeper, or bring in one of the under 23s? Are they all completely and utterly useless?

They are youth players. They have no experience. We are a team with title aspirations.

Sissoko is a 28 year old experienced pro and international.

If either player has a chance of "doing a job" at this time, its going to be him, isnt it? And, while I dont buy into the shop window arguments, what exactly does it do to him, the press on us, our chances of selling him etc if we dropped him for a 19 year old defender? I dont see it as a viable move however you want to dress it up.

Alli? Were Lamela properly fit maybe we would have tried it. He has been moved back a few times mid game and I think he is capable of doing a job. But again, Sissoko is likely the sensible choice. Alli is more valuable where he is.

 

[glasgowspur]

It does, entirely. If Poch was saying all that you want to infer he was, he wouldnt have qualified his statement.

Now, its not me trying to hang an entire argument on meaningless PR, its you - but as you are - you cant just ignore the key part of what he said and interpret it as you wish.

I refuse to say he is doing well? Because he isnt.

Ive said, time and again, Ive no doubt he is doing his best - and credit to him for that.

However, it doesnt change the fact his best is not good enough.

You keep going on about Pochs tactical explanation as if it offers some validation. Sissoko is not doing some mystery role, he is doing the most basic role that can be asked of him. The one where he is the least liability. Thats its. Everyone can see it, it really isnt a mystery.

When all the "Carrick, what does he do?" stuff came up, it was a debate with nuance. People expected a certain style of play in a deep sitting midfielder, and Carrick didnt fit that brief. He did things in a different way. Very little flash, very little bang, it was essentially an education. At that time we were still very early in our development and a player of his class was quite foreign to us. A defensive midfielder that worked by positioning and not slide tackles was strange. Thats why there was debate and it was worth it.

Sissoko? Its not even in the same solar system. He is a completely limited player who is out of his depth and is being used because we have no other option. The only argument really should be whether you think he is "bad" or "really bad".

Is he doing the best he can? Yes. Is it good enough? In odd games, just. In most games, no.

And in the games where he has looked ok, its games where we havent been ourselves. As Scara said, a more deep lying, counter attacking team rather than our usual style. I think it is very telling it is these games where he looks most at home.



I dont think you have it in you ;o)

Youve so convinced yourself of defending him I doubt you have it in you. "Performing a role" is not the same as "Performing a role well". I think thats where you will find the argument is. Not in defining that role, just in how well its executed. And clearly, many think he simply isnt good enough.

It puts me in mind of Scott Parker. When we first got him he spent half a season patrolling in front of the defence, breaking up anything that came his way, and playing it simple. He didnt cross the half way line, just offered cover. And he was glorious.

Then, once he had settled in, he decided he should be doing more of what modric was doing. Started playing the ball out from the back, carrying it forward, trying to act as fulcrum. And he simply wasnt up to it. I fudging hated watching him in that role.

I think similar of Sissoko. I dont think he is as good as Parker defensively, but were he to be there purely to break things up and give it to someone better, limited to our half of the field, I think he would do well enough. The moment he does more than that is the moment the cracks appear.

However, ultimately, thats how I see us getting the best out of him - thats not the same as saying thats any good for us. I think the team is past that kind of role now, and that really there is no place for Sissoko.

The bolded and underlined bit is, for me the best summation of sissoko.
He does his best, for this squad that's not good enough and makes him the weak link.
But, I have sympathy for him, he tries and you can see that it annoys him when he mucks it up. At least he cares, not like some big time Charlie's who take the money and Don t care.

 

[DTA]

But if Sissoko is so utterly gash as you believe then why not just put Foyth in midfield or drop Alli deeper, or bring in one of the under 23s? Are they all completely and utterly useless?

I think this is the key point. And to add to that, I think Poch has enough credit with Levy to make sure we would buy someone in Jan that would replace Sissoko if he was half as bad as people made out.

 

[scaramanga]

I think this is the key point. And to add to that, I think Poch has enough credit with Levy to make sure we would buy someone in Jan that would replace Sissoko if he was half as bad as people made out.

....if we could sell Sissoko.

Poch has already stated that we couldn't in the summer.

 

[DTA]

....if we could sell Sissoko.

Poch has already stated that we couldn't in the summer.

If he was half as bad as you and others have argued. We would buy a replacement for the first team and then sell him later/give him away for free/allow him to run down his contract.

As it is that hasn't Happened which leaves really two options

1.poch/Levy is deliberately sabotaging the team?
2.he is not as bad as you and many others make out.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Soldado's strengths were not suited to our style of play at that time. He was a square peg. We bought the wrong forward for our set up.

 

[Nifel]

If he was half as bad as you and others have argued. We would buy a replacement for the first team and then sell him later/give him away for free/allow him to run down his contract.

As it is that hasn't Happened which leaves really two options

1.poch/Levy is deliberately sabotaging the team?
2.he is not as bad as you and many others make out.

a) buying a replacement in today's market is incredible expensive.
b) the new player will take a place in the squad of limited size, risking us being stuck with 2 non-performers.
c) which leads me into c, there is no guarantee that the new guy will be a success (or suit our playing style).
d) having somebody with no future in the club is detrimental for club culture.
e) loads of non-hitters have made it outside the club. Paulinho, Boateng, Vlad+++. Many needed more than a season to blossom. Modric springs to mind. Giving people time is a sound strategy.
f) incoming player should be on par with the squad, not just improvement on Sissoko.
g) panic buys seldom works, ref. Sissoko.
h) buying first, selling after means worse bargaining position.
i) limited slots in squad for CL and League.
j) writing investments off is not Levy's style.
k) Levy (and Poch) would lose face.
l) players are coming back from injury and illness, meaning Sissoko will likely be a fringe player soon.
m) larger pool of players available during summer window.


I am positive the club works hard to find an improvement and to find buyers. They don't want to be in the same position with the new player in 1 year. And finding buyers who are willing to shell out £30M for him is difficult.

 

[scaramanga]

If he was half as bad as you and others have argued. We would buy a replacement for the first team and then sell him later/give him away for free/allow him to run down his contract.

As it is that hasn't Happened which leaves really two options

1.poch/Levy is deliberately sabotaging the team?
2.he is not as bad as you and many others make out.

He's a £30m purchase earning £80-95k per week (depending on which story you read).

We're not City or Chelsea, we can't afford to do that.

 

[Finney Is Back]

He's a £30m purchase earning £80-95k per week (depending on which story you read).

We're not City or Chelsea, we can't afford to do that.

The thing is Scara - if he is as bad as many on here state, it would cost almost nothing to replace him. In fact we could do so at a net profit for the next 6 months by simply recalling Onomah from his Villa loan and then loaning out Sissoko with us paying half his wages.

Decisions should never be taken based upon what has already been spent. It is Google who are masters at putting that into practice. They never consider what has already been spent on any product/project, only on how much is left to spend and whether the remaining spend is worth it compared to the perceived value when complete.

 

[90291Spur]

The thing is Scara - if he is as bad as many on here state, it would cost almost nothing to replace him. In fact we could do so at a net profit for the next 6 months by simply recalling Onomah from his Villa loan and then loaning out Sissoko with us paying half his wages.

Part of the frustration that we need a player who is a difference maker, so swapping Sissoko for Onomah - who may or may not be ready for that role - doesn’t solve that practically Sissoko-sized problem.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Part of the frustration that we need a player who is a difference maker, so swapping Sissoko for Onomah - who may or may not be ready for that role - doesn’t solve that practically Sissoko-sized problem.

Sorry I don’t follow?