Moussa Sissoko

[NoLimits01]

Why would we bother? He is a squad player who offers something we need in certain games. He doesn't often start or see out a full 90 minutes, yet doesn't complain. We have other midfield players offering different things to him who can play if Poch deems it appropriate. Upgrading him might give us a better player but could also give us a player who is not happy to be part of the squad system.

It would be nice though to have a game changer on the bench and not just a journeyman

 

[DubaiSpur]

I would say youve taken it in a way not intended.

I wasnt talking about being a counter attacking team, sitting back, soaking up pressure.....

I was talking about, you know, counter attacking. That point in the game where you break against a team that is getting on top of you. Something we have done very well since Poch came in, catching a team in that attacking/defending transition.

I see. Well, I'd partially agree, but at the same time, I don't think that's really a counter-attacking plan, per se - that's more a plan to be generally dominant while having the ability to make full use of quick transitions. to set up in a fully counter-attacking way, to my mind, requires you to give up the former aim in favour of the latter. At best, it's half and half.

Sissokos speed is not something Id describe as "visceral". And while I agree he is quick and does break quickly, things often break down with him on the ball just as quickly, so I question its true worth.

People keep gonig on about his speed, and I do think he is fast - but I maintain its no big deal. He isnt abnormally faster than people in our squad such that it stands out as a new asset in the team. So I had a little look and found this:

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/spor...s/moussa-sissoko-tops-premier-leagues-8407294

As at Jan 2015 he was the fastest recorded player in the league at 21.93mph. I was surprised, maybe I need to re think this, then I saw that Eric Dier was in the list as well - 21.75mph. Which swung straight back around to my original point.

That was at Saudi Sportswashing Machine two years ago. At Spurs now I really dont see his "speed" as, frankly, notable.

Dier's definitely very pacy - but his pace is utilised at the back, unlike Sissoko's, which is usually employed in more forward areas and thus represents a greater threat to the opposition. Sissoko is probably our paciest player going forward post-Walker - that is quite important just to stretch the opposition, if nothing else. And to cover for Aurier on his forays forward as well - also part of a counter-attacking strategy.

And yes, I do maintain we have always been good on the counter attack under Poch. I do think passing and movement is more important than raw pace. And I do think Sissoko has been, at best, average this season.

I don't really agree - no amount of passing and movement can save you if your counter-attack is dependent on players uniformly slower than the opposition, because the opponents will get players into position in front of you quicker than you can get the ball in behind them to someone in space. And they'll do it for the same amount of energy as you're expending laboriously trying to push the ball up the field.

Compared to last season, amazing. Compared to his peers? Meh.

Sure, that's plausible. But that doesn't mean he isn't useful to our play in a fundamental way - his errors and inability to hold the ball aside, his pace and strength is pretty fundamental to our plan, imo. That's all.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Our counter attacking goal against Real was as good as (or better than) any counter attacking move Sissoko has been involved in for us.

Of course pace can be important for counter attacking. Though perhaps to a greater degree being outright slow would be a detriment, we don't have those slow players. As important as pace is good vision, close control, passing, decision making. Everything Winks, Alli, Kane and Eriksen showed in that counter attack against Real where no player involved had blistering pace.

Sure. But pace is important - very much so. And Sissoko is the only one on the team (apart from maybe Son) who brings that pace in a forward role. Without that pace, attacking with clever movement and vision is our only option when countering - and that can be stopped, just as pace alone can be stopped. They are both vital tools.

You claim we weren't a good counter attacking team under Pochettino until this season, I disagree, but it's a difficult conversation to have. If the second half of last season isn't a good enough example for you it's a really difficult conversation. You seem to base your entire argument on us having to give up possession to be good at counter attacking. A strange claim in my mind. What I'll say is that we've been good in game conditions where counter attacking makes sense for most of his time here. When we've been in the lead against worse teams or happy with a draw or lead against our rivals we've looked good. Our weaknesses have been against teams that sit back and try to counter attack on us and against teams that press really well.

I don't agree with the notion that we've mostly been good in game conditions where counter-attacking makes sense, if only because we played Liverpool twice last season in conditions where pure counter-attacking made sense and tried to dominate both times - and we were largely nullifed both times. That speaks to a broader approach of trying to dominate possession against opponents at our level which didn't really go away until our 'pure' counter-attacking approach this season. It's difficult to try to argue the point on my end as well, but I'd say that we weren't comfortable with the idea of a 'classic' counterattacking approach until this season - previously, we tried hybrids (counter-attacking in certain situations within otherwise possession-based games), but this is the first time we've tried explicitly surrendering possession altogether.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I see. Well, I'd partially agree, but at the same time, I don't think that's really a counter-attacking plan, per se - that's more a plan to be generally dominant while having the ability to make full use of quick transitions. to set up in a fully counter-attacking way, to my mind, requires you to give up the former aim in favour of the latter. At best, it's half and half.

Again, you are just twisting it to suit your own logic. Im talking about "a counter attack". Not a tactical plan, a formation, a deliberate poly - much simpler than that. Just counter attacking when the opportunity presents.

And when the opportunity presents we counter attack very well. Sissoko has added nothing to this, its always been good under Poch. We regularly do that thing big clubs have done to us countless times. We have a corner, they break, they score. Within seconds of us having an opportunity we are behind - we do that to other teams now.

Dier's definitely very pacy - but his pace is utilised at the back, unlike Sissoko's, which is usually employed in more forward areas and thus represents a greater threat to the opposition. Sissoko is probably our paciest player going forward post-Walker - that is quite important just to stretch the opposition, if nothing else. And to cover for Aurier on his forays forward as well - also part of a counter-attacking strategy.

Sissokos pace is vastly over valued. It is framed as somehow being special, as though it is vastly quicker than our other players. It is neither.

I appreciate its pretty much his one key attribute, but it doesnt then follow that its actually impactful on the side. Only that its the one thing he is good for.

We have many quick players. Quick players that successfully break on teams and hurt them badly. Sissoko maybe be quicker, but certainly not such that it changes anything. Especially as 9 times out of 10 he does nothing with it.

His covering Aurier isnt a new thing. Diers pace - as you point out - got Walker out of trouble many times over the last few seasons in exactly the same way.

Sissoko is bringing nothing new to the party.

I don't really agree - no amount of passing and movement can save you if your counter-attack is dependent on players uniformly slower than the opposition, because the opponents will get players into position in front of you quicker than you can get the ball in behind them to someone in space. And they'll do it for the same amount of energy as you're expending laboriously trying to push the ball up the field.

Again - come on. Are you even talking about the Spurs side now or some abstract theoretical team in your head?

We dont have a Mane type speed merchant (even now with Sissoko) but we do have quick players. Quick in speed of thought and foot, and have regularly broke against teams to devastating effect.

Sure, that's plausible. But that doesn't mean he isn't useful to our play in a fundamental way - his errors and inability to hold the ball aside, his pace and strength is pretty fundamental to our plan, imo. That's all.

His pace and strength - and I agree with @BrainOfLevy here - are very useful in a defensive capacity. Where, lets be honest, he is just keeping the place warm until Wanyama is fit. That being the case, how is he fundamental to anything?

 

[Bullet]

When Zaha was through on goal for his open goal this weekend, who was one of our players that was busting a gut closest to him? Sissoko.

He's top class defensively, and for anyone to argue against that they need to point to chances conceded where Sissoko has been out of position and let it happen.

Er, you've just done this yourself!

Sissoko and Aurier were supposed to be at the back, guarding against a breakaway... I'm assuming it was a corner, can't remember?

Anyway Zaha gets given the ball by Aurier (he's a very generous chap) and Sissoko/Aurier run back at 3/4 speed and actually slow down when they think Gazzaniga is going to come out at full speed and save the day.

Then they realise that Gazzaniga is not going to get there and they try to accelerate again but it is too late, Zaha has gone round Gazzaniga and only a terrible finish saved us from conceding.




PS Zaha is faster than all of our players.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Again, you are just twisting it to suit your own logic. Im talking about "a counter attack". Not a tactical plan, a formation, a deliberate poly - much simpler than that. Just counter attacking when the opportunity presents.

And when the opportunity presents we counter attack very well. Sissoko has added nothing to this, its always been good under Poch. We regularly do that thing big clubs have done to us countless times. We have a corner, they break, they score. Within seconds of us having an opportunity we are behind - we do that to other teams now.

Which is not counter-attacking, to my mind- any more than Pep is a counter-attacking manager because he tells his players to break with pace when they get on the ball (as they did with Arsenal on the weekend). Tactical distinctions matter, and to say we've always countered well is not true. Otherwise, *every* tactic encourages breaking with speed when in clearly advantageous situations - which manager would tell his players 'okay lads, when you get the ball in space in a 3-on-2 situation, I want you to pass it back to the goalie' ?

Sissokos pace is vastly over valued. It is framed as somehow being special, as though it is vastly quicker than our other players. It is neither.

I appreciate its pretty much his one key attribute, but it doesnt then follow that its actually impactful on the side. Only that its the one thing he is good for.

You yourself said that he's faster than anyone else in the league, or was in 2015. And the cited top speed in that article you linked would also make him the fastest this season as well - that article has him going at 35.3 kmph, while this article has the fastest player this season as Walker at 35.16 kmph - (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/10-fastest-players-premier-league-11120341).

It is vastly quicker than our other players - Dier aside, I don't think our other players were or are as fast as Walker was, which by extension means they probably aren't as fast as Sissoko *is* (if he's kept his pace in the two years since). He's also stronger than most in our squad - function of his size, really.

We have many quick players. Quick players that successfully break on teams and hurt them badly. Sissoko maybe be quicker, but certainly not such that it changes anything. Especially as 9 times out of 10 he does nothing with it.

His covering Aurier isnt a new thing. Diers pace - as you point out - got Walker out of trouble many times over the last few seasons in exactly the same way.

Sissoko is bringing nothing new to the party.

Why are you trying to shift the goalposts? It's not about Sissoko bringing anything new, it's about him being central to our counter-attacking style of play - which his pace, strength and ability to cover for Aurier qualify him for.

Again - come on. Are you even talking about the Spurs side now or some abstract theoretical team in your head?

We dont have a Mane type speed merchant (even now with Sissoko) but we do have quick players. Quick in speed of thought and foot, and have regularly broke against teams to devastating effect.

It's a point about pace being pretty damn crucial to a counter-attacking side. You can be lightning quick in thought - as, say, Sigurdsson is - and be worse than crap in a counter-attacking side because you have no pace to make that speed of thought useful. We do have Sissoko, but we don't play him in the same way Liverpool utilise Mane, so we don't see the use of that speed in an offensive sense - but if we did, I'd wager he'd be about that fast as well. And we don't use it because we're largely quick enough to counter without needing a Mane option on the flanks - but even then, Sissoko's pace breaking from midfield and (alternately) catching up to opposition players on the defensive side make a difference. The Madrid game had a great example of it - when Sissoko beat the press, pulled a flick over his head and then burst into the Madrid half, sending all of Madrid's players backpedalling as a result, and then went back into position when that broke down.

His pace and strength - and I agree with @BrainOfLevy here - are very useful in a defensive capacity. Where, lets be honest, he is just keeping the place warm until Wanyama is fit. That being the case, how is he fundamental to anything?

Is he keeping the place warm until Wanyama is fit? Would Wanyama get back into this side? He looked pretty dire against Chelsea, after all. We'll find out when he gets back, but I'd say Sissoko is more useful than as just a stop-gap for Wanyama. He has an awful first touch, that much is true - and his technique leaves a lot to be desired. But that's not all he is, and most criticism of him just stems (imo) from the same tired sh*t that everyone got up to last season - moaning like gits about how horrible a signing he was two seconds after the pen was put to paper.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You are arguing against imagined points, which says this is probably time to call it a day.

Short version - his pace is not integral to anything we do. At least, no more so than any other player. Its not an exceptional quality introduced to the team. Talk of it in an attacking context is frankly nonsense because his limitations as a footballer are grossly exposed in those areas. In a defensive context yes, its good, but none more so than other options.

You are free to disagree, thats cool, but I dont fancy going through war and peace on it especially when you add unwanted context to my posts and argue against that.

 

[DubaiSpur]

You are arguing against imagined points, which says this is probably time to call it a day.

Short version - his pace is not integral to anything we do. At least, no more so than any other player. Its not an exceptional quality introduced to the team. Talk of it in an attacking context is frankly nonsense because his limitations as a footballer are grossly exposed in those areas. In a defensive context yes, its good, but none more so than other options.

You are free to disagree, thats cool, but I dont fancy going through war and peace on it especially when you add unwanted context to my posts and argue against that.

I argue against whatever you put out there - if you subsequently feel your own stated points are suddenly imaginary or merely 'unwanted context' to whatever divine wisdom you actually meant to communicate, not much I can do about that.

Suffice it to say, I disagree. But you're right in that there's little point taking it further than that.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Er, you've just done this yourself!

Sissoko and Aurier were supposed to be at the back, guarding against a breakaway... I'm assuming it was a corner, can't remember?

Anyway Zaha gets given the ball by Aurier (he's a very generous chap) and Sissoko/Aurier run back at 3/4 speed and actually slow down when they think Gazzaniga is going to come out at full speed and save the day.

Then they realise that Gazzaniga is not going to get there and they try to accelerate again but it is too late, Zaha has gone round Gazzaniga and only a terrible finish saved us from conceding.




PS Zaha is faster than all of our players.

So you’re blaming Sissoko while admitting this was quite obviously Aurier giving the ball away when he definitely shouldn’t have done?

 

[scaramanga]

PS Zaha is faster than all of our players.

Except Dier.

 

[metalgear]

Except Dier.

not when zaha is putting the ball behind him

 

[scaramanga]

not when zaha is putting the ball behind him

He caught up with him from quite a distance the other day - was about 3 or 4 minutes in I think.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Suffice it to say, he likes his new song.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Give me 11 Sissokos over the spineless lot who walked out there today. He tried, he drove at them, he looked brave, he looked competitive, he looked like he gave a f*cking damn.

Actually, give me nine Sissokos, a Lloris and a Sanchez. They fought. They cared.

No one else did. No one.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Give me 11 Sissokos over the spineless lot who walked out there today. He tried, he drove at them, he looked brave, he looked competitive, he looked like he gave a f*cking damn.

Actually, give me nine Sissokos, a Lloris and a Sanchez. They fought. They cared.

No one else did. No one.

I'll grant you that he did try, but he just can't play football. He has no touch at all, he looks like a competition winner. He's an athlete, not a player.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I'll grant you that he did try, but he just can't play football. He has no touch at all, he looks like a completion winner. He's an athlete, not a player.

In the derby, I want players who try. Who know what it means to play in the derby, and play for the shirt. I don't want fancy dans who turn it on against Real Madrid and then think 'right, can't be *rsed for this' in the North London f*cking Derby. Give me 11 Steffen Freunds over anyone who thinks that way.

And yes, give me Moussa Sissoko over that sort. I admit that his decision-making is subpar and his passing sh*te. The days when we lost a lot against that lot, we had sh*t players not up to the calibre of this lot too - but, ultimately, whether sh*t or red hot, the players need to care in games like this. Otherwise you will not win. And Sissoko cared.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

In the derby, I want players who try. Who know what it means to play in the derby, and play for the shirt. I don't want fancy dans who turn it on against Real Madrid and then think 'right, can't be *rsed for this' in the North London f*cking Derby. Give me 11 Steffen Freunds over anyone who thinks that way.

And yes, give me Moussa Sissoko over that sort. I admit that his decision-making is subpar and his passing sh*te. The days when we lost a lot against that lot, we had sh*t players not up to the calibre of this lot too - but, ultimately, whether sh*t or red hot, the players need to care in games like this. Otherwise you will not win. And Sissoko cared.

Can't we have players with heart and talent?

 

[DubaiSpur]

Can't we have players with heart and talent?

Evidently not - it's one or the other, judging by this game (and this game alone). Either we have fancy dans who turn it on against Madrid and look utterly lazy and unfazed today, or we have players like Sissoko, who try hard despite not being very good.

We can't have both, apparently. So I choose triers over shirkers.

 

[harr1984]

Evidently not - it's one or the other, judging by this game (and this game alone). Either we have fancy dans who turn it on against Madrid and look utterly lazy and unfazed today, or we have players like Sissoko, who try hard despite not being very good.

We can't have both, apparently. So I choose triers over shirkers.

No we can have both - But it highlights why Sissoko needs to be in the team because there aren’t many in our team capable of getting physical....

 

[ringo]

This is what I posted in the match thread about Sissoko, much as it pains me to say it --

" He demonstrated appalling touch and positional sense. He ran with the ball a few times- and then lost it as often as not. He is the only player in the team that looks clumsy and comical at times. The best bit was when, square to the ball, and marked closely by two players one between him and the ball, he put his hand up (not particularly convincingly) demanding the ball! Sometimes I wonder if he is playing the same sport."

He is just not very good.