Moussa Sissoko

[glorygloryeze]

I think maybe you need to read a little more carefully before replying, let me help:

• We were an excellent counter attacking team pre-Poch
• We have improved since Poch
• We are good with/without Sissoko, before we bought him and since. Sissoko does little to effect this ability.

What exactly are you arguing here?

I can read quite fine, thanks. I believe we were NOT an excellent counter-attacking pre-Poch, save for about 4 months when Bale became superhuman in the AVB first season and odd bits here and there under Redknapp. Poch, like AVB, wanted us to be instinctively more aggressive in seeking to be a possession-based team plus a team that presses to seek possession. We all saw AVB's downfall in that without Bale we lost that explosiveness to counter-attack teams whilst we then became a 'sideways' passing team. Poch slowly has increased out counter-attacking capability in that we have the legs as well as brain to counter pressing teams (which we all saw we struggled with big-time, e.g. Liverpool, Dortmund). I think the Sissoko buy (as well as other targets) are Poch's clear attempts to gain more tools to allow us to have more tactical variation: remember Poch wants us to act like a big club most times and dominate possession but also recognises that we can't always do this and that we need to be able to be dangerous on the break whilst parking the bus - probably especially so given we play regularly at Wembley at present.
So, as i say i disagree that we were an excellent counter-attacking team pre-Poch, but Poch in the last year has been trying to increase our capability in that regard and Sissoko is a part of that process.

Your argument seems to be based on Sissoko's superior athletisism. As if he is somehow the only "athlete" we have and that that is what he brings to the side. My counter, as you point out, is that since Pochettino arrived there has been a clear move to a more athletic team.

The point is - Sissokos athleticism might be his one defining trait, but it doesnt stand him above the rest of our team. He is not vastly superior in this respect (if at all? Most certainly not in a meaningful way). His athleticism doesnt change anything.

And the fact its that which your argument hangs on speaks volumes about his lack of ability as a footballer.


Sissoko was dog brick last season. Absolutely fudging appalling. It is to Pochs great credit that he has somehow turned Sissoko into something of a workhorse (though "why the hell did he buy him?!" is a valid question at this point).

I dont think there is anything other than "making do" going on with Sissoko, its not a genius squad building move, its not a buy to give us tactical flexibility - I honestly think its a transfer rooster up that we are just making the best of in the face of a fairly major injury situation.

And I fully expect that to be shown when players become fit and replace him.

He wasn't great, but i disagree that he was appalling. We will indeed see where he fits in when everyone is fit. I expect he'll continue to make most match-day squads - like he did last season.

Again, honestly, his athleticism isnt super human. It doesnt offer us anything we couldnt do anyway. While it might be his one true strength it doesnt automatically follow that it also makes a big difference to what is (and was) an excellent team.

Ok then, let me try another tack: do you remember his run and assist for Danny Rose's winner vs Burnley at home last season? I thought it was something that only Sissoko in our squad could create with his direct running. To me, there are two types of counter attack: ones that involve quick deliberate passes into players that have rehearsed the moves but are not themselves necessarily quick per say, ones that involve quick direct running with the ball by a pacy runner going past players.

 

[harr1984]

I can read quite fine, thanks. I believe we were NOT an excellent counter-attacking pre-Poch, save for about 4 months when Bale became superhuman in the AVB first season and odd bits here and there under Redknapp. Poch, like AVB, wanted us to be instinctively more aggressive in seeking to be a possession-based team plus a team that presses to seek possession. We all saw AVB's downfall in that without Bale we lost that explosiveness to counter-attack teams whilst we then became a 'sideways' passing team. Poch slowly has increased out counter-attacking capability in that we have the legs as well as brain to counter pressing teams (which we all saw we struggled with big-time, e.g. Liverpool, Dortmund). I think the Sissoko buy (as well as other targets) are Poch's clear attempts to gain more tools to allow us to have more tactical variation: remember Poch wants us to act like a big club most times and dominate possession but also recognises that we can't always do this and that we need to be able to be dangerous on the break whilst parking the bus - probably especially so given we play regularly at Wembley at present.
So, as i say i disagree that we were an excellent counter-attacking team pre-Poch, but Poch in the last year has been trying to increase our capability in that regard and Sissoko is a part of that process.




He wasn't great, but i disagree that he was appalling. We will indeed see where he fits in when everyone is fit. I expect he'll continue to make most match-day squads - like he did last season.



Ok then, let me try another tack: do you remember his run and assist for Danny Rose's winner vs Burnley at home last season? I thought it was something that only Sissoko in our squad could create with his direct running. To me, there are two types of counter attack: ones that involve quick deliberate passes into players that have rehearsed the moves but are not themselves necessarily quick per say, ones that involve quick direct running with the ball by a pacy runner going past players.

I wouldnt waste your time with him mate. He likes literally any post that contains someone being critical of Sissoko.....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

This is Pochettinos 4th season, are you suggesting up until now we havent been a good counter attacking unit and that Sissoko somehow rectifies that?

Otherwise Id suggest this has run its course. I see virtually none of what you do, to the degree it seems like fabircation in a desperate attempt to defend a player against what is entirely valid criticism.

I wouldnt waste your time with him mate. He likes literally any post that contains someone being critical of Sissoko.....

I like literally any post I like. Which is mostly either something I agree with or find amusing. Im not sure what you think you prove here.

Ive gone to great lengths to explain exactly why I disagree. Its called a debate. Although it seems Im doing it wrong, maybe I should get a bit more irate and irrational?

 

[glorygloryeze]

@nayimfromthehalfwayline i say Poch is now learning to counter-attack far better than he used to; it's been coming but he seems to have nailed the ability to do it as part of a 'park-the-bus' method, which he never seemed to before (apart from at the Emirates) and i think he has been trying to.
Sissoko was a buy i didn't want personally but i could see the reasoning for it (the ability to counter-attack whilst parking the bus somewhat) and i still see the reason why his involvement in the first team has continued. If Sissoko's squad place is upgraded, you can bet it will be someone who is NOT slow.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

@nayimfromthehalfwayline i say Poch is now learning to counter-attack far better than he used to; it's been coming but he seems to have nailed the ability to do it as part of a 'park-the-bus' method, which he never seemed to before (apart from at the Emirates) and i think he has been trying to.
Sissoko was a buy i didn't want personally but i could see the reasoning for it (the ability to counter-attack whilst parking the bus somewhat) and i still see the reason why his involvement in the first team has continued. If Sissoko's squad place is upgraded, you can bet it will be someone who is NOT slow.

I dont think our counter attacking has improved in any way because of Sissoko, and I do think it has been very good the last couple of seasons.

I think Sissokos pace and running were seen as positives when buying him, I dont think they have actually proven useful in a significant way.

As stated, like others, I dont see that he brings anything to the side only he can bring. I do see plenty of things he lacks compared to the rest of the squad though.

I still think you have constructed a whole scenario to fit the situation, making him out to be an evolutionary purchase rather than just accepting he is a duff buy that is a "make do and mend" while better players are unavailable.

At this point its clear we arent going to agree, so Im happy to just call it a day to be honest - I dont think either of us are going to bring anything else to this.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I don’t think it’s unfair at all to say a Sissoko was bought to add more pace and directness to our squad. In fact after the home game vs Liverpool last year Poch gives quotes that reflect exactly that ambition.

The problem was, we played Sissoko in a position that we would have played Mane in had we got him. But Sissoko’s attacking strengths were shown as part of a counter attacking Saudi Sportswashing Machine side, not a possession based side that is expected to dominate the ball. So he was wholly unsuited to the position he was given.

This season, he’s been able to play in a position that suits him more. He doesn’t make my first 11 in a fully fit squad but for particular games, and in general this season anyway, he has definitely been additive. We are making the best out of a poor initial signing (because he wasn’t suited to the position we had earmarked for him) and he is not as good technically as most other players in our squad. But I maintain, the fact that we continue to win, and against massive teams, with him playing a lot of the minutes is not a coincidence. If he was a passenger, he wouldn’t be anywhere near the squad. We are getting the best out of him by using him as a soldier, using him as someone that keeps shape, that is near impossible to bear one on one, that has the discipline to give the ball to the more gifted players every time and knows his role, and as someone that can both drive us up the pitch at pace and shut down pacey attacking players in the opposition.

Good management from Poch, and Sissoko has improved. Let’s appreciate that for what it is. I don’t think anyone is saying Sissoko is anything more than a good hand playing his role in the team well. We do need those players. As I said, a team of ten outfield Eriksen’s loses to a team of 8 Eriksen’s and 2 Sissoko’s, I’m pretty sure.

 

[Bullet]

I would post in here, to argue against Sissoko, but I don't feel he is worth my time or effort. He is so limited technically, he disrupts our play as others cannot trust him and he doesn't know where/when to run.

 

[thfcsteff]

I would post in here, to argue against Sissoko, but I don't feel he is worth my time or effort. He is so limited technically, he disrupts our play as others cannot trust him and he doesn't know where/when to run.

First of all, you actually did exactly what you said you wouldn't do.
Secondly, I find it astonishing that people are so hamstrung on bringing forward the player from last year versus the player this season. Whilst he is not Ronaldo, if people cannot see the vast improvement in Sissoko with regards to being a useful squad player versus a liability, then it is solely on them. You don't feature against Madrid twice and play in an unbeaten side by being 'untrusted' by team-mates. Time and time again he is berated, yet I have not seen Llorente cop a single bit of flack. FWIW I think Llorente is suffering from a lack of pre-season, but if you wanted to look at a player who disrupts our play right now, it is him (again I am not advocating everyone move their whipping post over to him, as he will come good)...

 

[thfcsteff]

I think we've been good despite of Sissoko more than because of him. If fit other players would have been better. Winks rather quickly grabbed a spot in our line ups from Sissoko once he regained fitness. Had he been fit from the start of the season I think he would have played more, Sissoko less, and we would have been better off.

Some games he's been more a hindrance, like against United where his lack of ability on the ball hurt us. In other: games other players have been able to compensate for his shortcomings and his strengths have been useful, like against Real. He's rarely, if ever, been amongst our best players in a game.

For me he would be the easiest to upgrade on in the transfer market, apart from Nkoudou who so far essentially doesn't play.

He missed a decent chance for a pop on goal for sure. Other than that, he and Aurier locked down their areas and restricted Man Utd successfully. He was part of a team effort. There is an argument for saying that were he on the pitch he might have had the speed to cover as their goal move happened. I tell you one thing that really hurt us against Utd; Moussa's insistence on not having a pop at goal on several occasions when there was opportunity to do so; he has one of the best shots in the squad, yet on a greasy, slick, wet surface, he failed to pull there trigger. Again, I don't like the blame game, but there has to be a sensei of proportion. If Alli scores, he plays his part in a great win.

 

[thfcsteff]

Eric Djemba-Djemba - 39 appearances
Kleberson - 30 appearances
Mark Bosnich - 23 appearances
Juan Sebastian Veron - 82 appearances
Owen Hargreaves - 39 appearances
Gabriel Obertan - 14 appearances

That's just one manager at one club in one decade. Sometimes, really good managers buy and play bad (or past it) players. Sometimes that team is successful despite said players, not because of them.

Hargreaves was restricted by injuries. He was a fine player. Veron, another fine player at the wrong club at the wrong time. Obertan? Seen through wine-tinted goggles!!!!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

Hargreaves and Veron were both dogbrick in the UK, yet a very good manager persisted with them. Point being, Poch persisting with Sissoko doesn't make Sissoko good or Poch bad.

No, agreed, what it makes him is a genius for not tossing a 30 million misfit from last season on the scrap-heap, and from realizing that with a little work and application on all sides, he could utilize the bloke into being a decent squad asset. I think it is one of the more extraordinary things Poch has done, because in May, I genuinely saw no future for him with us whatsoever.

 

[braineclipse]

He missed a decent chance for a pop on goal for sure. Other than that, he and Aurier locked down their areas and restricted Man Utd successfully. He was part of a team effort. There is an argument for saying that were he on the pitch he might have had the speed to cover as their goal move happened. I tell you one thing that really hurt us against Utd; Moussa's insistence on not having a pop at goal on several occasions when there was opportunity to do so; he has one of the best shots in the squad, yet on a greasy, slick, wet surface, he failed to pull there trigger. Again, I don't like the blame game, but there has to be a sensei of proportion. If Alli scores, he plays his part in a great win.

A long ball from De Gea, a single flicked on header on from Lukaku to Martial running in behind our central defender. Had Sissoko been anywhere near Martial it would have been through dreadful positioning.

One of the best shots in the squad? Really? Where and when has he demonstrated this shot?

 

[thfcsteff]

A long ball from De Gea, a single flicked on header on from Lukaku to Martial running in behind our central defender. Had Sissoko been anywhere near Martial it would have been through dreadful positioning.

One of the best shots in the squad? Really? Where and when has he demonstrated this shot?

Sorry, I was both unclear and misleading. Moussa Dembele has one of the best shots in the squad! I should’ve clarified that, apologies. My point re:Sissoko positioning is that he might’ve been a presence not allowing Lukaku a free header. Tony was caught in no man’s land and effectively taken out of it. And no, he would not have been in a terrible position even if he had been able to cover. Of course, another issue I had with that concession was that no-one (Llorente!) put any pressure on De Gea whatsoever. It was a collective failure for which Dier was the obvious issue when others were also at fault.


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[braineclipse]

Sorry, I was both unclear and misleading. Moussa Dembele has one of the best shots in the squad! I should’ve clarified that, apologies. My point re:Sissoko positioning is that he might’ve been a presence not allowing Lukaku a free header. Tony was caught in no man’s land and effectively taken out of it. And no, he would not have been in a terrible position even if he had been able to cover. Of course, another issue I had with that concession was that no-one (Llorente!) put any pressure on De Gea whatsoever. It was a collective failure for which Dier was the obvious issue when others were also at fault.


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Fair enough on Dembele, though I don't fully agree.

A lot of could perhaps have. Similar things could be said about any player not on the pitch.

It's a long hoofed ball from their goalie when we're fully organized. Perhaps our forwards could have done better, but that's a minute error (if an error at all). We have to deal better with it at the back.

 

[alekaras]

I've seen nothing that changes my opinion on this guy, he's being played because we have injuries and game time has obviously helped him with his form, but other than working hard for the side he doesn't add much in the way of quality. It will be interesting to see once our midfield absentees return where Sissoko stands in team, my bet is he'll be warming the bench more.

I hope he continues to improve, but at 28 you have to wonder what he can add to his game at this point.

Why can't he learn new things at 28? Supposedly one can learn, if they're 24, but can't if they're 28? That doesn't make much sense.

 

[Huddy]

Why can't he learn new things at 28? Supposedly one can learn, if they're 24, but can't if they're 28? That doesn't make much sense.

I'd of thought that was obvious, the younger you are the easier it is for a player to improve and develop their game. Sissoko is not a technical player his strength's are his physical attributes and at 28 this is unlikely to change.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Had the pleasure of watching the CL game against Real Madrid again today. Wanted to look for some details not consciously observed in earlier viewings. Was interested in stuff like Winks' midfield play and ball distribution, how Eriksen began to get to grips with Modric, who I thought outplayed him in the first half.

And our man Sissoko. I like how he and Trippier are well connected on the right side, how smoothly Sissoko slides in to cover when Trippier goes forward. He showed great awareness of positioning and defensive shape moving back into our zone and picked good moments to exchange spots with Trippier. This is shaping up to be a better combo than most of what we've seen between Walker and Lamela or Lennon.

He also showed good off-the-ball movement, taking up good positions to receive a pass or block lanes defensively. And one on one, he's no George Best going forward, but when he goes shoulder-to-shoulder, he's a handful and very wearing on his opponent. That adds up over the course of a game. Yes, far from perfect, but he does a lot of useful little things that add up.

I'm hard pressed to find much fault at his play in our greatest CL win. Maybe it takes a truly big game to bring out the best in him.

 

[DubaiSpur]

This is Pochettinos 4th season, are you suggesting up until now we havent been a good counter attacking unit and that Sissoko somehow rectifies that?

We weren't always a good counter-attacking unit under Poch. In fact, in the classical sense of the term, where counter-attacking involves ceding possession to your opponent but hitting them on the break, I'd suggest that we've really only come into our own as a counter-attacking unit *this season*.

14/15 - we were a mish-mash of approaches, only unified by fierce desire and a determination to compete (as evidenced by the number of late wins and draws we salvaged). Otherwise, we were very much a work in progress.

15/16 - we had basically one way of playing that season, which was aggressive passing in forward areas twinned with a relentless hunger to win the ball back when we lost it. We were nearly always the team with more possession - but when Plan A failed, we were pretty toothless.

16/17 - we merged the 15/16 style of play with a bit more ruthlessness and more street smarts - and although we made our first attempts at being a pure counter-attacking unit that season (switching to 3-at-the-back against Arsenal at the Emirates and looking to hit them on the break, as one example), we were still more comfortable with dominating (or at least shading) possession than we were with ceding it. And we still stuck to our ideological guns a bit - remember, Poch played Klopp's Liverpool twice and set us out to be the superior side in possession, but we were outplayed both times (and lost once, at Anfield).

17/18 - this is the first season where we look more comfortable out of possession than we do *in* possession - against Dortmund, against Liverpool and against Madrid (twice), we have ceded control and possession in exchange for sheer ruthlessness and speed on the break. This is encapsulated by the difference between Liverpool coming to WHL last season and them coming to Wembley this - last season, we were dominated in the first half, and then endured a pretty turgid second half only livened up by Rose thumping in a rare chance for the equalizer. This season, we played Liverpool like a smaller side would, and utterly obliterated them.

So, overall, I'd say we weren't a counter-attacking side under Poch until very, very recently. And Sissoko does help with that. One of the first things that comes to mind when I think of his performances this season is the speed with which he breaks when we're in possession (or he's on the ball) - visceral speed allied with pace. Even last season, we had basically three players that could do that - Son, Walker and Rose. This season, Walker's gone, Son hasn't played much and Rose has been out injured for most of it. Thus, Sissoko has at times been our only really pacy option - which is pretty damned central to a counter-attacking side, wouldn't you say?

 

[braineclipse]

We weren't always a good counter-attacking unit under Poch. In fact, in the classical sense of the term, where counter-attacking involves ceding possession to your opponent but hitting them on the break, I'd suggest that we've really only come into our own as a counter-attacking unit *this season*.

14/15 - we were a mish-mash of approaches, only unified by fierce desire and a determination to compete (as evidenced by the number of late wins and draws we salvaged). Otherwise, we were very much a work in progress.

15/16 - we had basically one way of playing that season, which was aggressive passing in forward areas twinned with a relentless hunger to win the ball back when we lost it. We were nearly always the team with more possession - but when Plan A failed, we were pretty toothless.

16/17 - we merged the 15/16 style of play with a bit more ruthlessness and more street smarts - and although we made our first attempts at being a pure counter-attacking unit that season (switching to 3-at-the-back against Arsenal at the Emirates and looking to hit them on the break, as one example), we were still more comfortable with dominating (or at least shading) possession than we were with ceding it. And we still stuck to our ideological guns a bit - remember, Poch played Klopp's Liverpool twice and set us out to be the superior side in possession, but we were outplayed both times (and lost once, at Anfield).

17/18 - this is the first season where we look more comfortable out of possession than we do *in* possession - against Dortmund, against Liverpool and against Madrid (twice), we have ceded control and possession in exchange for sheer ruthlessness and speed on the break. This is encapsulated by the difference between Liverpool coming to WHL last season and them coming to Wembley this - last season, we were dominated in the first half, and then endured a pretty turgid second half only livened up by Rose thumping in a rare chance for the equalizer. This season, we played Liverpool like a smaller side would, and utterly obliterated them.

So, overall, I'd say we weren't a counter-attacking side under Poch until very, very recently. And Sissoko does help with that. One of the first things that comes to mind when I think of his performances this season is the speed with which he breaks when we're in possession (or he's on the ball) - visceral speed allied with pace. Even last season, we had basically three players that could do that - Son, Walker and Rose. This season, Walker's gone, Son hasn't played much and Rose has been out injured for most of it. Thus, Sissoko has at times been our only really pacy option - which is pretty damned central to a counter-attacking side, wouldn't you say?

Our counter attacking goal against Real was as good as (or better than) any counter attacking move Sissoko has been involved in for us.

Of course pace can be important for counter attacking. Though perhaps to a greater degree being outright slow would be a detriment, we don't have those slow players. As important as pace is good vision, close control, passing, decision making. Everything Winks, Alli, Kane and Eriksen showed in that counter attack against Real where no player involved had blistering pace.

You claim we weren't a good counter attacking team under Pochettino until this season, I disagree, but it's a difficult conversation to have. If the second half of last season isn't a good enough example for you it's a really difficult conversation. You seem to base your entire argument on us having to give up possession to be good at counter attacking. A strange claim in my mind. What I'll say is that we've been good in game conditions where counter attacking makes sense for most of his time here. When we've been in the lead against worse teams or happy with a draw or lead against our rivals we've looked good. Our weaknesses have been against teams that sit back and try to counter attack on us and against teams that press really well.

 

[thfcsteff]

Fair enough on Dembele, though I don't fully agree.

A lot of could perhaps have. Similar things could be said about any player not on the pitch.

It's a long hoofed ball from their goalie when we're fully organized. Perhaps our forwards could have done better, but that's a minute error (if an error at all). We have to deal better with it at the back.

Dembele worked several approaches where we were baying for him to fizz one. Obviously when he was on the pitch [emoji6]...he has a superb shot but does not use it enough. Had Poch been coaching him since his early playing days he would be a better player for sure IMO...

We weren’t fully organized. If we were, it would not have ended like that!




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