Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[glasgowspur]

Liverpool are our peers. They are our competitors. And on a good day there is very little between us.

Where better to test yourself?





As stated, its about performances at this point - far more than results. Although obviously negative results will hardly help the situation.

Flip it on its head, how long to YOU wait. How much longer do we play like we couldnt care less before you look at it and think "this cant go on"?

Yes it is a good test of where we are, but it shouldn't be the final one imv.

Where or when would I draw the line, when I know more.
At this moment in time nothing makes any sense. I'm waiting on an explosion that doesn't seem to be coming.
Something has to break I keep thinking, and yet the club, the players and the manager are all saying its not good, we know that, give us time we are working on it.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Yes it is a good test of where we are, but it shouldn't be the final one imv.

Where or when would I draw the line, when I know more.
At this moment in time nothing makes any sense. I'm waiting on an explosion that doesn't seem to be coming.
Something has to break I keep thinking, and yet the club, the players and the manager are all saying its not good, we know that, give us time we are working on it.

Come on mate, thats a weak answer and you know it.

If the season started in Jan we would have just got relegated, or very narrowly missed the drop (I forget which). Our form over a sustained period is absolutely shocking.

And the new season comes not with an uplift, but a decline. To the point where any casual observer would tell you he has lost the dressing room.

If, after another 3 games, this doesnt show signs of changing - is it really too soon to make a decision? Really?

Especially as that is a key point in the season, a positive change and reaction from the players could still see us salvage top 4 and CL knock outs. Leave it much longer and that becomes much, much less likely.

 

[demotw]

its funny, we are talking about the next 1,2,3,4 games etc deciding a future, when Poch has already stated he needs the January transfer window to sort some of these problems out. I would suggest in fact he probably needs January and the summer window if i am honest, with the number of players we are losing etc..
The question surely has to be, has he done enough over the last 5 years to justify that time to rebuild - personally i think the answer to that is yes, he already rebuilt the team once when he came and there is nothing to suggest he cant do that again. If we accept this is a transitional season as we lose Toby, Jan, Eriksen and Rose etc then i would prefer to judge him by who is looking to bring in and how the team looks from a progression perspective.

 

[glasgowspur]

Come on mate, thats a weak answer and you know it.

If the season started in Jan we would have just got relegated, or very narrowly missed the drop (I forget which). Our form over a sustained period is absolutely shocking.

And the new season comes not with an uplift, but a decline. To the point where any casual observer would tell you he has lost the dressing room.

If, after another 3 games, this doesnt show signs of changing - is it really too soon to make a decision? Really?

Especially as that is a key point in the season, a positive change and reaction from the players could still see us salvage top 4 and CL knock outs. Leave it much longer and that becomes much, much less likely.

A weak answer?
Any weaker than he's lost the dressing room because we're brick?
He may have lost some of the dressing room, there's a split in there for sure imv.
If and buts is also a very weak answer.
If the league had been over three years we would won it. Woo hoo!
Means jack.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think this is Gingerism. I think he’d do a better job than Silva at Everton

He might get them upper mid-table. That'd be the extent of it. Better than Silva is currently doing? Yes. Where Everton could get to with the right man? Not a chance.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

A weak answer?
Any weaker than he's lost the dressing room because we're brick?
He may have lost some of the dressing room, there's a split in there for sure imv.
If and buts is also a very weak answer.
If the league had been over three years we would won it. Woo hoo!
Means jack.

Weak because it is entirely vague and fails to actually offer an answer.

I dont know that he has lost the dressing room - but plenty watching that Brighton game came to that conclusion, and not without reason. Its a valid point to raise.

And form over a consistent and sustained period doesnt mean jack, it means quite a lot actually. Especially when it is our current trend.

Ifs and buts is the nature of discussion. If X happens then I think Y. If Y happens then I think Z.

Your answer was what? "Youre wrong to state Liverpool should be an end point, but I dont know what is, Im waiting for a sign (as though there havent been any?)"

Youre waiting for something to break - in these situations its almost ALWAYS the managers position. You waiting for that before deciding if its time?

 

[glasgowspur]

Weak because it is entirely vague and fails to actually offer an answer.

I dont know that he has lost the dressing room - but plenty watching that Brighton game came to that conclusion, and not without reason. Its a valid point to raise.

And form over a consistent and sustained period doesnt mean jack, it means quite a lot actually. Especially when it is our current trend.

Ifs and buts is the nature of discussion. If X happens then I think Y. If Y happens then I think Z.

Your answer was what? "Youre wrong to state Liverpool should be an end point, but I dont know what is, Im waiting for a sign (as though there havent been any?)"

Youre waiting for something to break - in these situations its almost ALWAYS the managers position. You waiting for that before deciding if its time?

Nowhere did I say you were wrong, I disagreed with you, i didn't say you were wrong.
I also clearly said imv. It's my opinion, that's all it is. I'm not trying to sway people.
I've also clearly said until I know more I will reserve final judgement.
I'm disappointed this has gone this way, you and I usually agree on most things and I find you a very reasonable poster, so I hope this a temporary difference of opinion.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Nowhere did I say you were wrong, I disagreed with you, i didn't say you were wrong.
I also clearly said imv. It's my opinion, that's all it is. I'm not trying to sway people.
I've also clearly said until I know more I will reserve final judgement.
I'm disappointed this has gone this way, you and I usually agree on most things and I find you a very reasonable poster, so I hope this a temporary difference of opinion.

Dont think Im being narky - I appreciate text can be misleading - and Im certainly not trying to get into a fight or anything like it.

Im trying, simply, to root out what it is you really think.

You tell me you disagree with me (is that really any different to thinking Im wrong?), but dont really offer your own view, if you see what I mean?

"Until I know more" = what does that mean? What needs to happen for you to "know more" and then make a more asserted decision?

If our performances simply continue on their current path - how long before you think times up? Or are you happy to roll along down the league until something more definitive is revealed? Where/when/what makes you draw a line in the sand?

 

[glasgowspur]

Dont think Im being narky - I appreciate text can be misleading - and Im certainly not trying to get into a fight or anything like it.

Im trying, simply, to root out what it is you really think.

You tell me you disagree with me (is that really any different to thinking Im wrong?), but dont really offer your own view, if you see what I mean?

"Until I know more" = what does that mean? What needs to happen for you to "know more" and then make a more asserted decision?

If our performances simply continue on their current path - how long before you think times up? Or are you happy to roll along down the league until something more definitive is revealed? Where/when/what makes you draw a line in the sand?

There's obviously a problem, our form isn't good, until I know what the problem is I'm not willing to commit to throwing the best manager we've had in decades out.
It's that simple for me.
No one can say what the problem is.
There's theories, interpretations points of view, but for now that's all they are.

Trust me, no one knows better than me how often you can get into trouble in a forum.
I wouldn't have bothered to much if you hadn't used quotation marks as if I had actually flat outsaid you were wrong.

Let's have hug and put it behind us

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

There's obviously a problem, our form isn't good, until I know what the problem is I'm not willing to commit to throwing the best manager we've had in decades out.
It's that simple for me.
No one can say what the problem is.
There's theories, interpretations points of view, but for now that's all they are.

Trust me, no one knows better than me how often you can get into trouble in a forum.
I wouldn't have bothered to much if you hadn't used quotation marks as if I had actually flat outsaid you were wrong.

Let's have hug and put it behind us

While I understand the intent, what does "until I know what the problem is" mean? Thats where my mind gets stuck.

Chances are, the day you find out the underlying issue, is either the day Poch goes - or even some time WAY after!

So until then, there must be something more tangible to make you think "Maybe Poch isnt fixing things, and maybe they arent going to get better - so now what?"

I admire the desire to see the manager given time to sort things out. But thats not really the question here.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think its somewhat naive to think that a few players will suddenly make Poch a different manager and fix all the problems.

We may well improve with new blood (may not!), but thats a distraction from the point we are woefully underperforming in a fundamental way right now.

Those players need a decent team to come into, one that knows how to play, is motivated, is stable. THATs the job Pochettino needs to do right now.

Put it this way, if performances continue to decline - what chance to Sessegnon and LoCelso have to even play well themselves? Let alone usher in the whole 2.0 next gen team....

But the whole point with Poch is he's been chirping on about the new project, so he should be given the chance. If you don't want to give him the chance...he goes now. 3 games is not going to tell us much in the grand scheme of things. Playing the new guys is part of that, he's barely had that chance.

The new players and some changes (as you have been advocating) may change the dynamic and hopefully lessen the boredom of Pochs diatribe (if that is actually true). It's strictly about 'moving on', something we have done the opposite of for a while.

I'm sure existing squad members are motivated by the realisation this is their chance to step up and step in.

If there's an air of staleness and a few not on board, that will weigh down on the team...but each player can think for themselves and there's not many outside of those that are leaving that don't look like giving there all for Poch. What might be an issue is at this point we need a strong character to lead the group (I can only think of Kane) and b.ollocks off the old guard (a bit like the Are/Kaboul moment). That may psychologically draw a line in the sand that moves us forward.

 

[mudshark]

A weak answer?
Any weaker than he's lost the dressing room because we're brick?
He may have lost some of the dressing room, there's a split in there for sure imv.
If and buts is also a very weak answer.
If the league had been over three years we would won it. Woo hoo!
Means jack.

It's not true, anyway. If the season started in January, we'd have finished 10th. If it started in February and continued to now, we'd be 12th. It's worrying, though, that our only two wins in the league in 2019 so far were against teams that are no longer in it!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

But the whole point with Poch is he's been chirping on about the new project, so he should be given the chance. If you don't want to give him the chance...he goes now. 3 games is not going to tell us much in the grand scheme of things. Playing the new guys is part of that, he's barely had that chance.

The whole point is not that we stop one team, shuffle the players around, and start the next. It doesnt work that way.

The point is that regardless of the players available, we need to maintain a basic level of performance and coherence.

Something Poch has failed to do. THAT is the point.

The rest is all stuff that builds upon that base. No base = no building.

The new players and some changes (as you have been advocating) may change the dynamic and hopefully lessen the boredom of Pochs diatribe (if that is actually true). It's strictly about 'moving on', something we have done the opposite of for a while.

When should we expect these changes? This seems to be the crux of many an argument here.

For me, we should be seeing changes continuously, showing Poch is well on top of our performance and progress.

For others, it seems, its perfectly fine to just run this team into the ground before deciding to change anything and show any real control over things.

I'm sure existing squad members are motivated by the realisation this is their chance to step up and step in.

If there's an air of staleness and a few not on board, that will weigh down on the team...but each player can think for themselves and there's not many outside of those that are leaving that don't look like giving there all for Poch. What might be an issue is at this point we need a strong character to lead the group (I can only think of Kane) and b.ollocks off the old guard (a bit like the Are/Kaboul moment). That may psychologically draw a line in the sand that moves us forward.

Should be happening already.

Otherwise I dont disagree. I seem to be one of the ones here actually rather positive about the squad, its depth and quality. Its why Im so bemused Poch is allowing the performances he is.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It's not true, anyway. If the season started in January, we'd have finished 10th. If it started in February and continued to now, we'd be 12th. It's worrying, though, that our only two wins in the league in 2019 were against teams that are no longer in it!

Everything Ive seen has us right down in them mix, nice to know we have only fallen to mid table rather than the relegation battle.

 

[glasgowspur]

While I understand the intent, what does "until I know what the problem is" mean? Thats where my mind gets stuck.

Chances are, the day you find out the underlying issue, is either the day Poch goes - or even some time WAY after!

So until then, there must be something more tangible to make you think "Maybe Poch isnt fixing things, and maybe they arent going to get better - so now what?"

I admire the desire to see the manager given time to sort things out. But thats not really the question here.

Honestly, I have a my own idea of what the problem is.
I have no proof, inside knowledge or any other information. Looking at as a whole, piecing it together, throwing out the bits of flotsam "gossip" or whatever that don't make sense. I've made an educated guess at where I think it's all went wrong.
The last piece, the bit I can't get to fit is Harry.
If I'm right, then poch deserves a chance to see it through.
If I'm wrong then he needs to go.
Until I have that last piece I will err on the side of caution.
If I'm wrong I will be the first person to say he needs to, and the first person to admit I was wrong.
Ultimately though, we can't affect the outcome, so although I understand your frustration at what you see as my vagueness I can't get as worked up about it (not really sure that's the phrase I'm looking for).
Me knowing, not knowing, being right or wrong will have no bearing on it.
I want to know, because I hope the club does the right thing, but also because Im a nosey clam.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Honestly, I have a my own idea of what the problem is.
I have no proof, inside knowledge or any other information. Looking at as a whole, piecing it together, throwing out the bits of flotsam "gossip" or whatever that don't make sense. I've made an educated guess at where I think it's all went wrong.
The last piece, the bit I can't get to fit is Harry.
If I'm right, then poch deserves a chance to see it through.
If I'm wrong then he needs to go.
Until I have that last piece I will err on the side of caution.
If I'm wrong I will be the first person to say he needs to, and the first person to admit I was wrong.
Ultimately though, we can't affect the outcome, so although I understand your frustration at what you see as my vagueness I can't get as worked up about it (not really sure that's the phrase I'm looking for).
Me knowing, not knowing, being right or wrong will have no bearing on it.
I want to know, because I hope the club does the right thing, but also because Im a nosey clam.

All very mysterious!

What is your theory? Is it fit to share?

 

[Yermiyahu]

I'm just really sad about the whole situation, I so wanted Poch to be our Fergie, I really believed. I do so hope that he can turn it around,yet I can't help the feeling that we have been here before and it usually ends one way.

 

[parklane1]

its funny, we are talking about the next 1,2,3,4 games etc deciding a future, when Poch has already stated he needs the January transfer window to sort some of these problems out. I would suggest in fact he probably needs January and the summer window if i am honest, with the number of players we are losing etc..
The question surely has to be, has he done enough over the last 5 years to justify that time to rebuild - personally i think the answer to that is yes, he already rebuilt the team once when he came and there is nothing to suggest he cant do that again. If we accept this is a transitional season as we lose Toby, Jan, Eriksen and Rose etc then i would prefer to judge him by who is looking to bring in and how the team looks from a progression perspective.

Great post and sums it up for me.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Where I'm at.

Done with the guy. I can not stand him. Much like my feelings with Redknapp at the end and I did not want him sacked for wanting the England job so I dont want Poch sacked for wanting to manage Madrid or seemingly anywhere but us.

To me his devaluing of the cups, his infantile attitude his constant moaning in the press. His complete lack of tactics which funny enough to me makes him the Argentine Redknapp. But some of our fanbase are to stupid or suffering from the old English tradition of the inferiority complex to see that all he is is a gaffer in the mould of Redknapp who can get players to run for him.

Can we get better for the type of club we are? I doubt it so I say we stick. But I dont trust him to buy players or improve players over 25. So I think we need to create again the circumstances that he inherited that helped create the best team we have had for decades.

We need to find young players with talent who are hungry. It is the only thing the Argentine Redknapp can work with.

 

[glasgowspur]

All very mysterious!

What is your theory? Is it fit to share?

It's really not very mysterious at all, and chances are I'm wrong.

I had wrote a longer response, but did the site crash? I've lost stuff.
Thought DL had some black ops guy on me!