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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

thfcsteff said:
Allow me to try and offer an explanation.
Perhaps -given that he developed most of these players into the players they became, given that he moulded this squad- he has been bamboozled by their subsequent inability to perform at even a perfunctory level since the close of the window. Let's face it, if they even went at average it would be enough for top 4 this season. The fact that some are playing like an absolute gaggle of clams is probably both bewildering and painful for him to accept.

I would suggest that he might be wrapping his head around all of that. And that hopefully he can get to grips with it quickly and fudge the likes of Alderweireld and Eriksen off.
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None of which explains why they are playing now, after 11 games.

Poch on his game gives them a couple of chances and then pulls them. He doesnt need a chunk of the season to evaluate. Especially when he has alternatives, his hands are not tied.


thfcsteff said:
I will be the first to apologize of those specific players prove me wrong this season. I hope they make a mug of me. I am not holding my breath. And if they did it for a new manager and not Poch, I'd be even more disgusted than I currently am.
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Agreed. There is nothing to be won in being right about someone underperforming. Similarly Poch. It pains me to see him as he is right now. I would LOVE nothing more than for him to get his fire back and start really taking control of things. Id be delighted.
 
thfcsteff said:
Allow me to try and offer an explanation.
Perhaps -given that he developed most of these players into the players they became, given that he moulded this squad- he has been bamboozled by their subsequent inability to perform at even a perfunctory level since the close of the window. Let's face it, if they even went at average it would be enough for top 4 this season. The fact that some are playing like an absolute gaggle of clams is probably both bewildering and painful for him to accept.

I would suggest that he might be wrapping his head around all of that. And that hopefully he can get to grips with it quickly and fudge the likes of Alderweireld and Eriksen off.

I will be the first to apologize of those specific players prove me wrong this season. I hope they make a mug of me. I am not holding my breath. And if they did it for a new manager and not Poch, I'd be even more disgusted than I currently am.
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So lets accept your premise for a minute

- This group being below average hasn't been overnight, it would be quite damning on Poch if he is now surprised and trying to get his head around it.
- I could easily see this group challenging for the title with a different manager, it's called motivation, it's also different techniques of training/coaching get different results, perhaps all there is to Poch (like Bielsa) is fitness and outrunning the opposition which may have simply physically/mentally fatigued the squad out.

There are two red flags with me with Poch right now beyond what seems like a lack of personal commitment and ownership on his part
- He hasn't improved the players beyond a certain point (peak was almost 2 years ago), Eriksen, Kane, Dele, Lamela haven't pushed on
- His disconnection seems all with senior/experienced players (Rose, Toby, Jan, Eriksen), you cannot coach at the top level if you can't motivate players in their prime (these are your game winners)
 
Raziel said:
So lets accept your premise for a minute

- This group being below average hasn't been overnight, it would be quite damning on Poch if he is now surprised and trying to get his head around it.
- I could easily see this group challenging for the title with a different manager, it's called motivation, it's also different techniques of training/coaching get different results, perhaps all there is to Poch (like Bielsa) is fitness and outrunning the opposition which may have simply physically/mentally fatigued the squad out.

There are two red flags with me with Poch right now beyond what seems like a lack of personal commitment and ownership on his part
- He hasn't improved the players beyond a certain point (peak was almost 2 years ago), Eriksen, Kane, Dele, Lamela haven't pushed on
- His disconnection seems all with senior/experienced players (Rose, Toby, Jan, Eriksen), you cannot coach at the top level if you can't motivate players in their prime (these are your game winners)
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I think that motivation point is key. People keep talking about an ageing squad who cant keep up, but that just baffles me.

Our players, by Age
32
Lloris - N/A
Vertonghen - Not showing signs of slowing IMO

30
Alderweireld - Clearly broken, not up to it. 1 for the "too old" camp.
Sissoko - Possibly/probably the best athlete we have. No signs of slowing/fatigue or any of it.

29
Rose - Looks as fit an aggressive as ever

28
Wanyama - Broken. I would say "thats 2 for..." but lets be honest, its hardly like he will play much anyway

27
Gazzanaiga - N/A
Eriksen - No issues fitness wise
Son- No issues fitness wise
Moura- No issues fitness wise
Lamela- No issues fitness wise (at least in terms of when fit to play!)

26
Aurier- No issues fitness wise
Kane- No issues fitness wise
Davies- No issues fitness wise

Im not taking it any further down, I think the point is made.

If there are issues with making an effort, its not fitness or ability - its something else, IMO.
 
alekaras said:
I think the players are lacking in self belief and the CL final did us no good. It's almost as if they've given up on being able to win something after that defeat. And I don't think Poch is the kind of manager that can give that to them. But get in a player like Davids and combined with Poch they can take us to the next level. Or if you're going to bring in a new manager, make it Simeone, or, dare I say, Dyche. Proper fire and brimstone guys.
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Sean Dyche would be a disaster. Doing a great job where he is but Burnley is the limit of his ability.
 
Raziel said:
So lets accept your premise for a minute

- This group being below average hasn't been overnight, it would be quite damning on Poch if he is now surprised and trying to get his head around it.
- I could easily see this group challenging for the title with a different manager, it's called motivation, it's also different techniques of training/coaching get different results, perhaps all there is to Poch (like Bielsa) is fitness and outrunning the opposition which may have simply physically/mentally fatigued the squad out.

There are two red flags with me with Poch right now beyond what seems like a lack of personal commitment and ownership on his part
- He hasn't improved the players beyond a certain point (peak was almost 2 years ago), Eriksen, Kane, Dele, Lamela haven't pushed on
- His disconnection seems all with senior/experienced players (Rose, Toby, Jan, Eriksen), you cannot coach at the top level if you can't motivate players in their prime (these are your game winners)
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Agree, these are my concerns too mate, but at the same time this is the first time he is encountering a new transition, and Lo Celso and Sess havent had a proper opportunity yet to help him transition the squad, and if N'Dombele is a sign of the new team taking shape then things will start to look up when other new recruits are up to speed.

Basically, I think we should wait and see over this season and see if we begin to get a picture of where the team are going with the new team playing together and even if it is a season of pain, if it looks like a new team is emerging ready to develop for the next season Im happy to wait and not write off Poch too soon - the grass isnt always greener....
 
harr1984 said:
Agree, these are my concerns too mate, but at the same time this is the first time he is encountering a new transition, and Lo Celso and Sess havent had a proper opportunity yet to help him transition the squad, and if N'Dombele is a sign of the new team taking shape then things will start to look up when other new recruits are up to speed.

Basically, I think we should wait and see over this season and see if we begin to get a picture of where the team are going with the new team playing together and even if it is a season of pain, if it looks like a new team is emerging ready to develop for the next season Im happy to wait and not write off Poch too soon - the grass isnt always greener....
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Yep, and I think this is what the whole conversation is now, do we give time or not (and by we .. I mean Levy)

If I was a betting man, he has 3 games, bad result in CL and a hammering by Pool (which unfortunately are realistic results) in those 3 would be the end.
 
Raziel said:
Yep, and I think this is what the whole conversation is now, do we give time or not (and by we .. I mean Levy)

If I was a betting man, he has 3 games, bad result in CL and a hammering by Pool (which unfortunately are realistic results) in those 3 would be the end.
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I made this point the other day, possibly in this thread.

We play Liverpool on a Sunday, and our next game is the following Sunday, at which point our run of games through November are really quite favourable (December gets tricky).

So I figure next 3 games...
...Go well, and we compete against Liverpool, then Poch gets that cushy run to build momentum
...Go badly, and we look like brick, then Poch probably goes - and its an ideal run of games for a new manager to bed in
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I made this point the other day, possibly in this thread.

We play Liverpool on a Sunday, and our next game is the following Sunday, at which point our run of games through November are really quite favourable (December gets tricky).

So I figure next 3 games...
...Go well, and we compete against Liverpool, then Poch gets that cushy run to build momentum
...Go badly, and we look like brick, then Poch probably goes - and its an ideal run of games for a new manager to bed in
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A win in the league, a draw in CL and anything other than a hammering against Liverpool and I think we will be fine.
Nobody at the moment is expecting to go to anfield and get much, they have too much momentum and luck.
That will be four of our toughest league games out the way, more than anyone else I can think of in the league.
 
glasgowspur said:
A win in the league, a draw in CL and anything other than a hammering against Liverpool and I think we will be fine.
Nobody at the moment is expecting to go to anfield and get much, they have too much momentum and luck.
That will be four of our toughest league games out the way, more than anyone else I can think of in the league.
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Thats why I was very specific in saying we compete with Liverpool. The result is secondary in that one, to a point, its about how we play.

Play well, narrow defeat - considering their form - not a bad sign.

Get absolutely smashed and outplayed - probably the final straw.
 
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nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I made this point the other day, possibly in this thread.

We play Liverpool on a Sunday, and our next game is the following Sunday, at which point our run of games through November are really quite favourable (December gets tricky).

So I figure next 3 games...
...Go well, and we compete against Liverpool, then Poch gets that cushy run to build momentum
...Go badly, and we look like brick, then Poch probably goes - and its an ideal run of games for a new manager to bed in
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I think there has to be a period where he has La Celso and Sess fit to choose from (and NDom more up to speed) so he can change it up and the period you suggest is a bit short.

He can make some changes and maybe look at formations but to see real forward progress he needs the new boys available. They really are the first steps in the transition and to sack him before we witness any idea of what that looks like seems a bit pointless. You may as well just do it now.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
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I think there has to be a period where he has La Celso and Sess fit to choose from (and NDom more up to speed) so he can change it up and the period you suggest is a bit short.

He can make some changes and maybe look at formations but to see real forward progress he needs the new boys available. They really are the first steps in the transition and to sack him before we witness any idea of what that looks like seems a bit pointless. You may as well just do it now.
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I think its somewhat naive to think that a few players will suddenly make Poch a different manager and fix all the problems.

We may well improve with new blood (may not!), but thats a distraction from the point we are woefully underperforming in a fundamental way right now.

Those players need a decent team to come into, one that knows how to play, is motivated, is stable. THATs the job Pochettino needs to do right now.

Put it this way, if performances continue to decline - what chance to Sessegnon and LoCelso have to even play well themselves? Let alone usher in the whole 2.0 next gen team....
 
glasgowspur said:
Hope he's not judged on one game.
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What @nayimfromthehalfwayline is saying is

- Based on where we are (not 1 game)
- Based on the noise/pressure already
- Lets say we win (1 goal margin) against Watford, we lose the CL game (massive monetary impact), and get smashed against Pool.

You will be 10 games in, probably negative GD, CL by a thread, same number of losses as wins in PL and mid table, case for sticking with Poch will be very hard to justify.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Thats not what Im saying, at all.

Rather - thatll be the final straw.

IF things continue to decline, how long to you let that go?

And that Liverpool game is not only a very valid test of where we are - it also marks a very good point to make a decision.
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I disagree on a good point to make decision.
Context is everything here, Liverpool is probably the toughest place in Europe to go to at the moment.
Raziel said:
What @nayimfromthehalfwayline is saying is

- Based on where we are (not 1 game)
- Based on the noise/pressure already
- Lets say we win (1 goal margin) against Watford, we lose the CL game (massive monetary impact), and get smashed against Pool.

You will be 10 games in, probably negative GD, CL by a thread, same number of losses as wins in PL and mid table, case for sticking with Poch will be very hard to justify.
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Let's say we smash Watford,(we did it to Palace) sneak a win against salzburg (not unlikely) and draw at Liverpool (unlikely but we managed it at city).
Ifs and buts and sll that but at the moment neither scenario is as likely as the other.
At this moment in time we don't know what's happening, what's at the root of our malaise.
All I'm advocating is we wait and see what happens.
From what I can see other than a few dubious press reports there's not been one single mutter from the players or the club about the manager.
 
glasgowspur said:
I disagree on a good point to make decision.
Context is everything here, Liverpool is probably the toughest place in Europe to go to at the moment.
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Liverpool are our peers. They are our competitors. And on a good day there is very little between us.

Where better to test yourself?



glasgowspur said:
Let's say we smash Watford,(we did it to Palace) sneak a win against salzburg (not unlikely) and draw at Liverpool (unlikely but we managed it at city).
Ifs and buts and sll that but at the moment neither scenario is as likely as the other.
At this moment in time we don't know what's happening, what's at the root of our malaise.
All I'm advocating is we wait and see what happens.
From what I can see other than a few dubious press reports there's not been one single mutter from the players or the club about the manager.
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As stated, its about performances at this point - far more than results. Although obviously negative results will hardly help the situation.

Flip it on its head, how long to YOU wait. How much longer do we play like we couldnt care less before you look at it and think "this cant go on"?
 
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