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Josh Onomah

I think that Livermore is the wrong example to support your argument @AdamB - I don't remember anyone saying he was more than a competent trier and I cannot remember many being upset when he was sold.

I think that you are also wrong in what you think other posters on here are saying about Onomah. I haven't heard anyone saying that he is going to be a star. What I have heard is that it is probably not fair to judge him on his first team appearances because they have been out of position and that he looked good in the U20's in central midfield. Does anyone have him in anything other than the could become good category?
 
milo said:
I think that Livermore is the wrong example to support your argument @AdamB - I don't remember anyone saying he was more than a competent trier and I cannot remember many being upset when he was sold.

I think that you are also wrong in what you think other posters on here are saying about Onomah. I haven't heard anyone saying that he is going to be a star. What I have heard is that it is probably not fair to judge him on his first team appearances because they have been out of position and that he looked good in the U20's in central midfield. Does anyone have him in anything other than the could become good category?
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Pleased that someone understands what I mean! There were though a number who thought Livermore would make it, though agree it was fewer people than others from the academy. Another example would be Ryan Mason who, while he split opinion, had a lot of very strong supporters who thought he would become a regular for us and potentially a regular England player. Stephen Caulker might be a better example of another who was viewed with rose-tinted spectacles just because he was an academy player whereas in reality he had knees like bambi and turned as quick as an oil tanker. You get the point though - there's a lot of time where youth grads get the support from their home fans where others wouldnt. Another way of looking at this is to look at young players from other clubs - a lot of Liverpool fans think Alexander-Arnold is a star in the making probably just because he's young, but to me as someone who doesnt have the Liverpool-bias, he looks like a plain ordinary RB. Kind of like Brad Smith who came through their academy a couple years ago or Adam Smith who came through ours.

Regarding your comment "I think that you are also wrong in what you think other posters on here are saying about Onomah. I haven't heard anyone saying that he is going to be a star" - perhaps my use of 'star' above was wrong but what I was more referring to was many, many suggestions that he'd be a genuine first choice option, sort of someone who you could trust to start many PL games in the same way which say Winks has. At the moment, in my view, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that. Perhaps in May 2018 after a successful loan spell at Villa there will be and he'll prove me wrong! Will happily admit it if so but at the moment I see natural skill but not the other things needed!
 
AdamB said:
Pleased that someone understands what I mean! There were though a number who thought Livermore would make it, though agree it was fewer people than others from the academy. Another example would be Ryan Mason who, while he split opinion, had a lot of very strong supporters who thought he would become a regular for us and potentially a regular England player. Stephen Caulker might be a better example of another who was viewed with rose-tinted spectacles just because he was an academy player whereas in reality he had knees like bambi and turned as quick as an oil tanker. You get the point though - there's a lot of time where youth grads get the support from their home fans where others wouldnt. Another way of looking at this is to look at young players from other clubs - a lot of Liverpool fans think Alexander-Arnold is a star in the making probably just because he's young, but to me as someone who doesnt have the Liverpool-bias, he looks like a plain ordinary RB. Kind of like Brad Smith who came through their academy a couple years ago or Adam Smith who came through ours.

Regarding your comment "I think that you are also wrong in what you think other posters on here are saying about Onomah. I haven't heard anyone saying that he is going to be a star" - perhaps my use of 'star' above was wrong but what I was more referring to was many, many suggestions that he'd be a genuine first choice option, sort of someone who you could trust to start many PL games in the same way which say Winks has. At the moment, in my view, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that. Perhaps in May 2018 after a successful loan spell at Villa there will be and he'll prove me wrong! Will happily admit it if so but at the moment I see natural skill but not the other things needed!
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And then he goes and score a free kick in the CL.....though it was pretty tame...
 
AdamB said:
Pleased that someone understands what I mean! There were though a number who thought Livermore would make it, though agree it was fewer people than others from the academy. Another example would be Ryan Mason who, while he split opinion, had a lot of very strong supporters who thought he would become a regular for us and potentially a regular England player. Stephen Caulker might be a better example of another who was viewed with rose-tinted spectacles just because he was an academy player whereas in reality he had knees like bambi and turned as quick as an oil tanker. You get the point though - there's a lot of time where youth grads get the support from their home fans where others wouldnt. Another way of looking at this is to look at young players from other clubs - a lot of Liverpool fans think Alexander-Arnold is a star in the making probably just because he's young, but to me as someone who doesnt have the Liverpool-bias, he looks like a plain ordinary RB. Kind of like Brad Smith who came through their academy a couple years ago or Adam Smith who came through ours.

Regarding your comment "I think that you are also wrong in what you think other posters on here are saying about Onomah. I haven't heard anyone saying that he is going to be a star" - perhaps my use of 'star' above was wrong but what I was more referring to was many, many suggestions that he'd be a genuine first choice option, sort of someone who you could trust to start many PL games in the same way which say Winks has. At the moment, in my view, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that. Perhaps in May 2018 after a successful loan spell at Villa there will be and he'll prove me wrong! Will happily admit it if so but at the moment I see natural skill but not the other things needed!
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I think that you are mistaking people saying that a player could become a first team player and will.

The only poster who I remember rating Mason that highly was GB, most others thought that he was a decent squad player who might be able to push on. People liked him because he seems like a nice guy, worked hard and had a good back story. I was surprised that he joined Hull, I think that he is better than that. It is difficult to say where he would be right now after the head injury last season.

Caulker is a odd one to pick out, he was a decent player but his career has been trashed by his off field problems.

I haven't seen anyone say that Onomah will be a genuine first choice option but happy to stand corrected if you can find some posts saying this. What I have seen is people saying that he has been decent for the development squad and England U20s in his natural position and may have a future with us if he can step up. Most are pleased that he's gone on loan and will get important first team experience.
 
milo said:
I haven't seen anyone say that Onomah will be a genuine first choice option but happy to stand corrected if you can find some posts saying this.
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I dont know how to embed multiple quotes but from a quick scan of just two pages on this thread:

- Gazza Dazzla: (p27): "Trying not to get too carried away but I was so impressed/surprised with him in center mid, he has to play here for us next season rather than AM. On that performance we genuinely have 5 deep center mids to choose from next year now."
- Bedford Spurs (p27 respinding to Gazza Dazzla's post above): "I think that's all fair though"
- eltrev (p32): "I hope to see him get some opportunities in central midfield this season"
- braineclipse (p32): "Seems more head up than Dembele. Not as impressive physically at this point at least. Bit Carrick-esque, but more drive with the ball. If he wasn't already with us I would have been delighted if we signed him for £15-20m."
- GB: (p32): "I agree - sort of 5th choice CM (behind Wanyama, Dier, Dembele and Winks) perhaps starting in cups + lots of 20 minute cameos in the league at AM"

As I've said, hopefully the Villa loan will be great for him and he'll come back next summer better placed to challenge for a match day squad for 2017/8. I'm sceptical (I would say 'realistic'!) about whether he and CCV might ever have a proper career at Spurs but hopefully they will and will prove than my doubts wrong and they'll each save us £30m in the transfer market. More generally though, as I said above, I think Spurs fans have a massive tendancy to get over-optimistic about the potential of youth academy graduates; where this is normal compared to other PL teams, is difficult to say but I suspect it is
 
AdamB said:
I dont know how to embed multiple quotes but from a quick scan of just two pages on this thread:

- Gazza Dazzla: (p27): "Trying not to get too carried away but I was so impressed/surprised with him in center mid, he has to play here for us next season rather than AM. On that performance we genuinely have 5 deep center mids to choose from next year now."
- Bedford Spurs (p27 respinding to Gazza Dazzla's post above): "I think that's all fair though"
- eltrev (p32): "I hope to see him get some opportunities in central midfield this season"
- braineclipse (p32): "Seems more head up than Dembele. Not as impressive physically at this point at least. Bit Carrick-esque, but more drive with the ball. If he wasn't already with us I would have been delighted if we signed him for £15-20m."
- GB: (p32): "I agree - sort of 5th choice CM (behind Wanyama, Dier, Dembele and Winks) perhaps starting in cups + lots of 20 minute cameos in the league at AM"

As I've said, hopefully the Villa loan will be great for him and he'll come back next summer better placed to challenge for a match day squad for 2017/8. I'm sceptical (I would say 'realistic'!) about whether he and CCV might ever have a proper career at Spurs but hopefully they will and will prove than my doubts wrong and they'll each save us £30m in the transfer market. More generally though, as I said above, I think Spurs fans have a massive tendancy to get over-optimistic about the potential of youth academy graduates; where this is normal compared to other PL teams, is difficult to say but I suspect it is
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So, I'm openly a Josh doubter, I don't see it, but lets clarify something

Spurs Academy is amazing, Mason, Livermore, Caulker, Carroll, Bentaleb, Townsend all made it as PL level players, add Kane, Winks, KWP and possibly Josh to the list and you have an academy that is consistently turning out top quality players. Based on the above, it easily pays for itself and with Kane has probably saved us tens of millions.

The gap between PL level & Top 4 challengers is significant, and playing time, luck, personality all play into that. Personally don't see Josh making that step, but neither did anyone watching Kane play for lower level clubs.
 
Raziel said:
So, I'm openly a Josh doubter, I don't see it, but lets clarify something

Spurs Academy is amazing, Mason, Livermore, Caulker, Carroll, Bentaleb, Townsend all made it as PL level players, add Kane, Winks, KWP and possibly Josh to the list and you have an academy that is consistently turning out top quality players. Based on the above, it easily pays for itself and with Kane has probably saved us tens of millions.

The gap between PL level & Top 4 challengers is significant, and playing time, luck, personality all play into that. Personally don't see Josh making that step, but neither did anyone watching Kane play for lower level clubs.
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Agreed. Never doubted that the academy makes us a fortune. It wont be long before we hit £100m of transfer fees received from academy players, even before you include those like Kane, WInks and KWP who are still with us. Our academy and willingness to use those players is one of those things which make you proud to be a Spurs fan
 
milo said:
I haven't seen anyone say that Onomah will be a genuine first choice option but happy to stand corrected if you can find some posts saying this. What I have seen is people saying that he has been decent for the development squad and England U20s in his natural position and may have a future with us if he can step up. Most are pleased that he's gone on loan and will get important first team experience.
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Decent for our development squad? He has stood out at every level (Now it seems Villa included in that) and was excellent for our Youth team and England age groups. Onomah has been widely seen as one of the best prospects to have come through the academy in recent years. A player with a higher ceiling than Winks and someone who has been touted as an English international since he was a boy. People forget that he has never had a single minute in his rightful position and I would love to see there stick that Winks would have got had he been played a right back or right wing for example. Onomah has the ingredients to be a top top player and people should back him.

Personally I have been shocked by the way people are so dismissive of a player in his situation and seem to relish the idea of writing him off despite him never getting a fair crack of the whip. IMO there is a massive task a lot of people will have egg on their faces should he continue his rise.
 
LCLC said:
Decent for our development squad? He has stood out at every level (Now it seems Villa included in that) and was excellent for our Youth team and England age groups. Onomah has been widely seen as one of the best prospects to have come through the academy in recent years. A player with a higher ceiling than Winks and someone who has been touted as an English international since he was a boy. People forget that he has never had a single minute in his rightful position and I would love to see there stick that Winks would have got had he been played a right back or right wing for example. Onomah has the ingredients to be a top top player and people should back him.

Personally I have been shocked by the way people are so dismissive of a player in his situation and seem to relish the idea of writing him off despite him never getting a fair crack of the whip. IMO there is a massive task a lot of people will have egg on their faces should he continue his rise.
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I think that you are misreading what I have been saying. Onomah is a decent player and undoubtedly has great promise. I was arguing the same as you about his opportunities in his favoured position in the first team.
 
milo said:
I think that you are misreading what I have been saying. Onomah is a decent player and undoubtedly has great promise. I was arguing the same as you about his opportunities in his favoured position in the first team.
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Parking LCFC's comments for a moment, do you agree that the posts which I flagged above about him being a genuine first choice option today are over-the-top?
 
Villa lost again. Onomah was played behind the striker but Villa spent most of the game defending and booting the ball up to Hogan(and then Agbonlahor when he came on) to chase so he had little effect on the game.
 
AdamB said:
I dont know how to embed multiple quotes but from a quick scan of just two pages on this thread:

- Gazza Dazzla: (p27): "Trying
not to get too carried away but I was so impressed/surprised with him in center mid, he has to play here for us next season rather than AM. On that performance we genuinely have 5 deep center mids to choose from next year now."
- Bedford Spurs (p27 respinding to Gazza Dazzla's post above): "I think that's all fair though"
- eltrev (p32): "I hope to see him get some opportunities in central midfield this season"
- braineclipse (p32): "Seems more head up than Dembele. Not as impressive physically at this point at least. Bit Carrick-esque, but more drive with the ball. If he wasn't already with us I would have been delighted if we signed him for £15-20m."
- GB: (p32): "I agree - sort of 5th choice CM (behind Wanyama, Dier, Dembele and Winks) perhaps starting in cups + lots of 20 minute cameos in the league at AM"

As I've said, hopefully the Villa loan will be great for him and he'll come back next summer better placed to challenge for a match day squad for 2017/8. I'm sceptical (I would say 'realistic'!) about whether he and CCV might ever have a proper career at Spurs but hopefully they will and will prove than my doubts wrong and they'll each save us £30m in the transfer market. More generally though, as I said above, I think Spurs fans have a massive tendancy to get over-optimistic about the potential of youth academy graduates; where this is normal compared to other PL teams, is difficult to say but I suspect it is
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So I've said he's 5th choice for 2 center midfield spots! You've just disproved your own point?

Edited my post to give slightly less attitude!:)
 
Last edited:
Gazza Dazzla said:
So I've said he's 5th choice for 2 center midfield spots! You've just disproved your own point! Well done.
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If you read the context of my conversation with Milo and why those quotes were pasted in, you'll understand that you're arguing a different point (not ordering of selection but whether actually good enough)
 
AdamB said:
Parking LCFC's comments for a moment, do you agree that the posts which I flagged above about him being a genuine first choice option today are over-the-top?
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I don't think any of those posts are saying that he should be a first choice option. The furthest people seem to be going is that he should get some minutes in his preferred position. Most of the people that you quote are happy with him going out on loan and getting first team experience.
 
AdamB said:
If you read the context of my conversation with Milo and why those quotes were pasted in, you'll understand that you're arguing a different point (not ordering of selection but whether actually good enough)
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I've slightly edited my post of last night as it was arsey for no reason!

However, I don't think it is a different point, you were discussing whether he's a genuine "first choice" option, I don't think any of the quotes you posted suggested he should be first choice? In my scenario for example a 5th choice CM would get about 10 appearances (?) and most of those as sub. The key being though that they would/should all be in his actual position that he has never played for the first team.
 
milo said:
I don't think any of those posts are saying that he should be a first choice option. The furthest people seem to be going is that he should get some minutes in his preferred position. Most of the people that you quote are happy with him going out on loan and getting first team experience.
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You read them very differently to me then!
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
I've slightly edited my post of last night as it was arsey for no reason!

However, I don't think it is a different point, you were discussing whether he's a genuine "first choice" option, I don't think any of the quotes you posted suggested he should be first choice? In my scenario for example a 5th choice CM would get about 10 appearances (?) and most of those as sub. The key being though that they would/should all be in his actual position that he has never played for the first team.
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Thanks! I thought it was a bit arsey, hence a very short reply! I guess it depends on what you mean by 'first choice option' - I interpret that as being a viable option to start in any game depending on what sort of balance you wanted from the CMs; if you mean it as you say as being 5th choice out of 5 then clearly its very different
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Some match reports say he was the only one showing the required desire last night, at one point berating Agnonlahor for failing to press. How does this tie in with his lack of desire and work rate?
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I'm guessing the contrast in fitness, motivation, commitment and belief at Villa compared to what he's used to under Poch has come as quite a shock. My fear is that one whole season in that environment may well affect his progress adversely. Either that or it'll be the making of him.
 
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